cleaning my lines

[bomofish]

What do you think the level of inportance is to clean the sap lines after the season? will it really effect the next years product?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im going to be 100% truthful here........I DONT CLEAN MY LINES and I wont use this symbol:emb: at the end of that statement.

I do not get squirl damage due to salts and residue that they like to chew on. I run my vacuum during tap pulling and that sucks most of the left over sap out and the rest sits and ferments and snots up into a worm that flows out during the first run. Would it be better if I sanitized my lines after use MAYBE does it look better sure. Will my lines last longer DONT KNOW. Is my syrup effected by it I DONT THINK SO.

I think its better to have cleaner Releasers, storage tanks, transfer tanks and head tanks. I have even heard of people not pulling their taps till the next year when they tap. Once again I hear others talk about cleaning there evaps with sour sap so why doesnt the same hold true for tubing. The sap ferments turns sour and sits in this state of limbo till next spring and out it goes. I have NEVER seen mold or clogs from the old sap it just snots up and leaves the area:) :) :)

[DrTimPerkins]

What do you think the level of inportance is to clean the sap lines after the season? will it really effect the next years product?

If the question is....does cleaning tubing affect the quality of sap on the first couple of sap runs, then the answer is (probably) yes.

If the question is...does cleaning tubing lines increase sap yield, then the answer is (probably) no.

[jason grossman]

i will differ with the no cleaning statement. i have seen many operations that don't clean tubing and i can tell you that i have not seen anyone with great yeilds on them. i clean my sytem every year and i get excellent yield from the first run to the last every year. i never let any sap run on the ground "to clear the lines" as some producers do. it's all about the sap quality , amount and flow. syrup is made in the woods not the sugarhouse!!!!

[Squaredeal]

...syrup is made in the woods not the sugarhouse!!!!

wiser words have not been spoken here.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

As far as cleaning, I don't know much about it but I flush my lines every year as soon as the season is over, usually they are all flushed within 7 to 10 days of last boil and the last couple of years, I have made a lot of light syrup and sometimes I hold sap for up to a week and sometimes longer. Can't imagine you would be making light syrup and hold sap that long with dirty tubing.

[ejmaple]

i'am new to this but with two years never washing my tubbing it still looks as good as new. no mold, clogs, snots ect.. i do have real good pitch, for drainage.

[backyardsugarer]

I took over for a guy three years ago that never cleaned his tubing. He made half the syrup he should have. He let the first run go on the GROUND to clean up the lines!!!!!!! I washed the mainlines good and we did not waste a drop of sap by doing that. Our production went up also (probably had to do with not wasting the first run. I personally will never be able to wash out every lateral line but I do believe in cleaning the mainlines as good as possible. Plus it only takes a little bit of time depending on you locations.
my 2 cents based on my experience.

Chris

[sapman]

This is my first year with much tubing, and I didn't clean, based on what I've heard, and the time and potential money investment. So I guess we'll see what I think after this season.

Tim

[lew]

I had quite a bit of experience with this several years ago. We purchased an operation with 3,500 taps that had never been washed in 10 years. i was nervous about adding this sap to my "pristine" sap that came from other woods that were washed every year without fail. I went so far as to buy set up a 5x14 evaporator to handle the sap from only this woods and ran all my other sap (about 4,500 taps) through my original system. It kept you on your toes drawing syrup off 2 evaporators at the same time. Any ways, to my surprise, the syrup I made off the woods that had never been washed was ALWAYS at least the same color as the syrup made from the washed tubing woods. Actually it was usually quite noticeably lighter. We never did wash that tubing, because of the extremely long laterals and tubing configuration. But to this day, I still wash all my tubing even though I have first hand experience with not washing it and making great syrup. Somehow it's just not right not to wash.

[jdj]

[QUOTE=jason grossman;94439]i will differ with the no cleaning statement. i have seen many operations that don't clean tubing and i can tell you that i have not seen anyone with great yeilds on them.

I went to Leader's open house last year and attended the tubing seminar. "Washing tubing" was a big topic. Peter Purington flat out said he does NOT wash tubing and averages high yields per tap(.5gal). Someone asked if he let the first run go on the ground to clean the line and Purinton's answer was simple, " I don't tap tree's to let the sap run on the ground".

With commercial grade syrup prices between 2-2.50 per pound, why would anyone let sap run on the ground??

Personally I would rather have some sap left in lines which will turn to vinegar than have water left in the lines which will turn to algae. After reading all that has been available to me on the new check valve adapter, I have to assume that "dirty" tubing is going to be less of an issue as far as sap yields go if you are using the CV's since the sap is not going to be able to go from the lats or the drops back to the tap hole.

[Chad802]

I have never washed my tubing in the twelve years that i have been doing this. I dont let any sap run the ground either and still make light syrup every year.

[Sugarmaker]

Interesting, very interesting!
Why do folks have to change there drops and spouts ever couple years to increase sap production? I know this is production not cleaning. But will cleaning the lines reduce the need to purchase new spouts and drops?

Personally I rinse my tubing at the end of the season and have not see any algae yet in 3 years. I will be watching.

Washing, at least rinsing seems like the right thing to do. We always washed the buckets.

Does anyone not wash their buckets? Do we wash buckets because we can get or nose in them and smell the moldy sap? Hard to get our nose in tubing:)

But I also understand the logistics and equipment and water that may be required to wash thousands of taps.

We ( as syrup makers) boil what ever sap gets to the sugar house and that sterilization process will kill any bacteria that may have been in the tree, tap, lines, tank, preheater, R.O. and the evaporator. My point is that we are very lucky that our end product is very tolerant of a variety of front end material handling methods and various degrees of cleanliness.

Thanks for letting me vent! I feel much better:) Good discussion!
Regards,
Chris

[maplehound]

I would like to see a study on this. I have always washed my tubing and probalbly always will. Not only do I wash it at the end of the season but before the start of the new season as well. Last week when we had warm days I started my vaccum pump and walked around the woods pulling taps from their posts and letting any residual water run out and back to the tank. The results that I see each year from this is amazing, as I pull them the amount of junk that has grown in the lines is very apperant and when I return to my tank it is full of green algea goo!!!!!! I just can't see ever boiling something that would look like that!!! However I must say that while doing this I found 2 lateral lines that never got the taps pulled from the tree (new help last year) these lines where probably the cleanest looking lines in the bush. I have seen may studies done on how to clean your lines most conclude that straight water or water air mix work as well or better than using any cemical in the lines, but I have never seen a study on not cleanning them at all, or waiting till spring(late winter) to clean them.

[sapman]

maplehound, so is what you saw recently coming out of the tubing leftovers from you washing last year? I just wonder if it would look as bad if you'd never washed. No disrespect intended! Like you say, a study would be nice!

Best regards,
Tim

[maplehound]

Sapman, that is just what I am wondering. Either never wash them or should I let my vacuume run after I wash them and go around again draining the lines better? Just washing them the first time is a lot of work and very time consuming that is why I wait till this time of year to get the last of the water out and rerinse the lines before the season. I just don't think I can bring myself to not clean the lines after the season any more than I could get myself convinced to not clean them again before the season.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Ok, where is Dr. Perkins when we need him. He could probably chip in some good info on this subject as there have likely been some studies done???

[Haynes Forest Products]

He already did:) Post #3

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I knew he made a post # 3, just wondering if there were any technical studies out there that had hard facts. Hard to believe there is a not a study somewhere.

[Wanabe1972]

I've had lines in one bush for 8 years now and cleaned them the first year by pumping water and bleach solution through them and then flushing with water. Deer and squirrels ate it so bad I ended up replacing 500 to 600 feet of drops and laterals. Since then I just pump a tank of water through let them dry for a day then cap everything. Very minimal damage and they still look like new.

[PerryW]

For the past 20 years, I rinse my laterals with plain water by lugging a 3 gallon backpack sprayer around. I also run water directly into the mainline from a spring half-way up the hill, but only the lower 50% of the mainlines get rinsed at all.

Even with the rinse, the first 5 gallon drum usually has an off flavor (almost a taste like what damp newspapers smell like), but after that, the off-flavor disappears.

However, 3 or 4 years ago, I didn't rinse my tubing at all because of a schedule conflict. The next season, my first drum tasted reaaaly bad and I was surprised the Bascoms would even buy it as commercial! The next 5 gal drum was still pretty bad, and I could even detect a slight off-flavor in the third drum.

[ennismaple]

We suck warm water through our laterals as we pull the taps. Once all the lines on a section of bush are washed we suck 10-15 gallons of hot water through each mainline, which gets them as clean as possible. I know some of you have good experiences with not washing but I can't fathom leaving snotty sap in the lines for 10+ months!

[jason grossman]

ennis i agree, if people who do not wash get good results , OK, however i take the time and do it. i just can't leave that in the lines. if that snot plugs a line for just one run i am losing production. you always have to strive to get as much as you can it's not like our season lasts all year!! i also use clear 5/16 tubing not the blue translucent so you can see everything. you can see in the blue but not like the clear. i just feel it is worth it to clean. it's nice to fire up in the spring and not get snots or vinegar out of the lines. i have done work on old setups and reused old tubing for people and i just can't stand sour sap smell let alone put it in my evaporator.

[wally]

i'm another who doesn't clean the lines. i do make sure that they are drained, and i use spout plugs on all the taps and at the outlet. i'd guess that i'm able to remove about 95% of the sap from the lines before closing them. i don't dump any sap, and the first batch is fine.

i tend to agree about the algae vs vinegar theory, and prefer vinegar.

wally

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im with wally on this one. I vac the lines as clear as possible and then tap under vacuum and dump whatever is in the tank when the last tap goes in.

[MainelyMaple]

does anyone know an easy way to flush out the lateral lines out without vacuum? would just a back pack sprayer to each tap do the trick?

[PerryW]

does anyone know an easy way to flush out the lateral lines out without vacuum? would just a back pack sprayer to each tap do the trick?

That's how i rinse my laterals.

[Saw Filer]

Thats how we do it also, at the end of the season and again when we tap, with clean water only.We don't have many to do so it doesn't take much time, but I hate seeing that stuff in my tanks.
george

[farmall h]

Mainelymaple, try adapting a small gas water pump to the top of your mainline. Run the pump at low rpm with someone at the last tap. Pop tap out of tree and wait for flow. Let the tap hang and go on down the line with this method and all your taps will be clean. Low pressure to start and once half of the spouts are open you can turn the pump up some. Plan on roughly 300 gallons of water as you move swiftly through the bush. Once your all done...disconnect pump and it will drain. Later on you can hang your spouts to the "T" and should be set. Use cold water and low pressure so as not to pop your caps off (if not wired). If you have th time and water...the more of each the better. I usually wash mine in April/May so as not to freeze my hands. All my mainlines are segregated with ball valves therefore I can do around 250 per section.

[Goggleeye]

1. For those of you that clean your lines, what do you use?
2. I run gravity tubing that I put away at the end of the season, once dry. Is it that important to replace the drop lines, and if so, how often? I was considering dipping the drops that are attached to the laterals already in a bleach solution before I put them out/hook them up to the taps.

Any thoughts?
Thanks, Mark

[Farmboy]

If you use bleach squirrels will chew your lines.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I dont clean my lines and I get maybe 3 chews over 20 acres:)

[Goggleeye]

The answer I was hoping for on the laterals. What about the drops, should I replace them, or do you guys use the same ones year after year?

[Brent]

we have 3 totes in the bush that we release into.
I pull the taps and cap them, then I fill the two 35 gallon tanks on the Gator with a commercial pipleine cleaner from my dealer and go to each tote and connect a little Honda pump and pump up into the system. Then walk each line and uncap each tap until the solution blows out a bit, then recap. Let it sit for a few days then open the bottom and drain. Uncap each tap ... (suppose this year I'll re-start the vac) when it's all drained I flush with fresh water the same way. I missed cleaning one line with the fresh water this year. It got chewed pretty bad ... anyone got a 410 to sell ?

The only issue I had was a couple of drop lines did not get the water out. If you don't get the water out you're going to get green snot inside the tubes there. ( all the more reason to restart the vac and let it run to dry them a bit.)

99.9% of the lines still look like new. Never dreamed of letting anything run on the ground.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I must admit I use all the old everything. Now could I do better YEA BUT I have always done better every year.......improving the vacuum, tightness and equipment.some day Ill get the check valves

[Ed K]

I'm wondering if it would be better to use an air compressor to blow the line out.I've been blasting spring water up the lines for 6yrs now and always have some with alge in them.I quit using bleach 7yrs ago after haveing to replace many drops an some lats,due to squirrels,a bear and cyotee pups.I was out today fixing lines from the last wind and a lot of low places had water there.
So what do you think of the air pressure idea?

[DrTimPerkins]

Ok, where is Dr. Perkins when we need him. He could probably chip in some good info on this subject as there have likely been some studies done???

I've been enjoying my vacation before "busy season" (Jan-April) begins on Monday. In that vein, like last year, I may be absent for a few months during this time period -- not quite yet, but soon. If you truly need to reach me for something important during that time, email me directly at Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

There has not been a great deal of research on tubing cleaning that is truly pertinent in the past couple of decades. The last study that was done was when PVC tubing was popular. However there has been a great deal of work showing that clean (new) tubing and spouts has a large positive impact on sap yield.

We have done several pilot studies on spout cleaning versus replacement as well as comparison of new versus used drops (both cleaned and uncleaned). Replacement ALWAYS comes out ahead in terms of sap yield for both drop and spout replacement (spouts are more critical). The issue isn't straight-forward due to newer approaches like CV and other annually replaceable adapters, replacing droplines, and other things that I'm not able to talk about quite yet (my apologies). In general though we've found that it isn't really possible to get tubing or spouts as clean as new. Cleaning will definitely improve the sanitation of the system, but will never get it back to the point where it will perform (in terms of sap yield) as good as a new system.

It is very likely that we'll be doing at least one major study on tubing cleaning starting in the next few years...AFTER we acquire some grant funding to do the research. Unlikely we'll have complete results of this for 3-5 yrs due to the complexity of the issue and so that we can get a few yrs of trials under our belts.

Finally, I'll tell you that our head sugarmaker here stopped cleaning tubing 2 yrs ago (unless it is required for a research study of some type). That isn't really a recommendation at this point....just what he has decided to do in our woods. Even in those sections that don't get new drops, CV, or new spouts, we still manage to get over 0.5 gal/tap on a system that is now 7 yrs old. For those sections that we do put in CV, new spouts, or new drops, there is a definite improvement in yield.

[Brian Ryther]

Dr Tim. I see you often use the 0.5 gpt figure, refering to syrup per tap. Do you feel that that is a better indicator then sap per tap figure? Are you able to influence the sugar content? I have been able to get 25+ GPT, and I know I can do better, but last season I averaged 67 gallons of sap per gallon of syrup. I have the sap but I just do not have the sugar to make the 0.5.

[ennismaple]

Dr Tim's post may have just saved me a bunch of time this coming season. We have always sucked water through each and every tap when pulling them. Since we'll be 50% converted to CV's this year and the rest on CV's by 2012 we plan to only suck a bit of water through each lateral, pull the rest of the taps and suck some water through the mains at the end of the season. To each his own, but I still can't convince myself not to suck some water through the lines before everything gets put away. At average > 0.5gal syrup/tap Dr Tim's numbers are convincing...

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Tim. I see you often use the 0.5 gpt figure, refering to syrup per tap. Do you feel that that is a better indicator then sap per tap figure? Are you able to influence the sugar content? I have been able to get 25+ GPT, and I know I can do better, but last season I averaged 67 gallons of sap per gallon of syrup. I have the sap but I just do not have the sugar to make the 0.5.

We do use both, however the bottom line is the amount of syrup you make. We actually measure it both ways....incoming sap and sugar content as well as syrup production totals to verify. They should come out fairly close (with some shrinkage/loss).

The tapping/sap collection sanitation technology doesn't appear to influence the sap sugar content (SSC), so they are largely interchangeable in this particular conversation. The two major factors influencing SSC are genetics and environment. You can influence the genetics of your stand by thinning out the poorer producers (by testing SSC), but that takes a fair amount of time. In terms of environment, whatever you can do that improves tree growth rate tends to also increase SSC and sap yield (they are fairly highly correlated). So thinning is good and soil amendments (lime or fertilizer -- in low doses) as dictated by soil or foliar nutrition analysis, indicator plants, or deficiency symptoms (rare) can also be helpful.

Our yield numbers are also somewhat influenced by the fact that we only use 1 tap/tree regardless of size. This is done (primarily) for three reasons: 1) we're at a high elevation and the trees are fairly stressed as it is, 2) before we retubed several years ago we were sometimes finding it hard to tap into good fresh wood due to the previous use of large spouts (7/16") and higher tapping intensities, and 3) it makes calculation of the numbers far easier. So if you're tapping multiple taps/tree, you will naturally have a somewhat lower yield due to the fact that the 2nd tap (under vacuum at least) will not yield twice as much sap as 1 tap. Good vacuum will move sap laterally within a tree quite a distance.

[DrTimPerkins]

Hello Again Folks,

This thread has been very interesting, so I've started a Poll to see how people are cleaning their sap collection systems. This will help us determine future research directions and priorities. Your participation will help serve in an advisory capacity in this. Please visit http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=10301 to participate in the Poll.

You are under no obligation to participate, and there is no prize for doing so, however the information we receive will be helpful in determining future research needs.

The Poll is open and others will be able to view the results.

Please feel free to contact me at Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu if you have questions.

Thank you.

P.S. If you simply drain your system under gravity or with the vacuum pump on, please answer "Nothing".

[danno]

I've always blown air/water through my lines from the bottom, but while cleaning last spring, the pressure blew the lines on my air/water manifold, so all the lines did not get done.

I was up in the woods this weekend cutting off old taps and adding stubies. Those drops that did not get rinsed had a reddish liquid in them (turned sap that was probably closer to vinegar). As I ran the liquid out of the drops, I noticed how CLEAN these drops were where this liquid had sat. I'm beginning to think that leaving sap in your lines may clean them more than an air/water rinse.

I leave sap in my pans now at the end of the season - this has made cleaing my pans much easier and leaves them much shinier:), so why not tubing?

[Brent]

Yeh Danno but then instead of having squirrel chews you have the Yellow Belleyed Sap Sucker to deal with.