Beginner questions on making a pan

[82cabby]

Hi gang!

I made a barrel evaporator last winter and was really happy with the way it worked, but now I need a pan for it! I used cafeteria trays last season and it worked, but a dedicated pan would be better. I am going to take on the welding, it will be my first try at stainless but I'm game to give it a shot.

I have two questions: First, what do I use for a draw off? I won't be able to tip the larger pan and pour it into a pot to bring it inside and finish it off like I have been. I really don't know how and what to attach to the pan, I mean obviously a pipe with a ball valve but how do you attach it? And what material?

Second, is it worth putting dividers (labarinth like) in the pan or should it just be open? Might help since I could fill at one end and draw off at the other. But we are only talking about a pan that is about 24" square so I am not sure if there is a benefit.
Lastly (for now) what guage stainless would you recommend?

Any help would be appreciated

[jrthe3]

i would use 22 gauge or thiner the thiner the better the heat tranfer for a pan that size i don't think i would bother with dividers and the draw off most just use a stainless steel pipe bung wielded to the side of the pan

[Bucket Head]

Cabby,

Yes, a ball valve is what you want. You could either weld a stainless pipe nipple to the pan or get what they call a half coupler. They are specifically made for welding on to something so you have a pipe thread fitting ready to go. Either way will accomplish what you want.

The dividers are not going to be much benefit with such a small pan. You will be making "batch style" syrup. You won't be drawing off syrup like a traditional evaporator. You could put them in if there is a chance this pan would be used in the future with a flue pan??

Fourteen or sixteen ga. stainless would be a good thickness to go with for a first time welding project. Thinner than that is going to frustrate you very quickly! Some will say that 14-16 is too thick, but its not. My pans are that thick and they make syrup just fine! Take a look at my photobucket "modifications" album and you can see some of my welding. They are all MIG welds in case your wondering.

Good luck with your pan!

Steve

[82cabby]

Thanks guys for your replies!

Bucket Head, in the photo below the pipe fitting on the right side looks like what I want to do. Where did you find the proper fittings? Also, if you don't mind, could you explain the copper piping? I am guessing pre-heater. If that's what it is, how well did it work? In general I kill off my boil every time I add sap.

Thanks for the advice!

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt143/buckethead1920/Sugaring%202003%20-%202008/Modifications/1-31-2009100359PM.jpg

[KenWP]

How deep is that pan.

[BarrelBoiler]

i'd go with at least 8 inch sides and put some handles on
to help move it around. why only 24x24 most barrels (55gal) are 33 inches long? are you planning to finish off on the barrel or some other way? if you are finishing on the barrel keep a close eye on things don't want any warped pans or burnt syrup. I don't rememder if it was a member here or a manufactorer(sp) that left one side of the frame work that supported the pan and kept it from slideing around flat and had a anlge iron stand the same height attached to the arch. that let the operator slide the pan off the fire when the operator needed to.
good luck there are lots of pictures of barrel stoves on here check them out good luck have fun

[3rdgen.maple]

BB you do realize that you are going to have to pull the pan off the fire before you drain it completetly right? You cannot leave the pan on the fire without burning it up for even a split second with little to nothing in it.

[BarrelBoiler]

82cabby

just reread yuor first post and saw something i missed,that you do finish inside. like 3gen reminded me you can't a pan over a hot fire with out some sap in it you mentioned that a bigger pan would be hard to tranfer to a smaller one to finish off. our 33x24 took 2 people to do and it was a vrey sooty job(dirty clothes)
what i was trying to describe is what GBM Evaporator did with their 2x6 batch arch. just some legs to slide the pan off the fire(make that, just coals left,on the way out fire) so it's safe to drain the pan with out scorching.
Maple Guys handle this brand but i had to google GBM to find a picture on Anderson's web site.
sorry if what i posted earlier was a little foggy

[Bucket Head]

Cabby,

The photo of mine you posted is my pre-heater and condensate drip pan, not my evaporating pan, just so nobody is confused.

Off hand, I can not recall the ga. of sheet metal it is, but its very thin. The fittings are copper and the pan seams and fittings are soldered. The height of the sides are two inches. It would be very difficult to weld that thin of metal as a first time welding project. Which process are you going to be useing, MIG or TIG welding? TIG would be the only way you could weld the sheet metal my drip tray is made of. MIG welding and the use of a thicker ga. metal will make for a more "pleasant" welding experience and it looks respectable when your done. Did you see the other pics of my pans? Those are 14 and 16 ga., MIG welded with .025 wire with "stitch" type welding to avoid warpage.

Hope this info helps. Good luck with it!

Steve

[KenWP]

That makes sense was trying to figure out if those were 6 inch pipes or a low built pan.
I tried to weld a SS sink and made a mess of it. I couldn't get the welder low enough to weld and not burn through. Oh well just another piece of unsightly junk hanging around. I don't have a MIG yet to try and weld with that just a stick welder.
I know somebody has probbably said it but how high are the sides on a drop flue pan to keep the sap in the evaporator.

[82cabby]

Wow! Thanks for all the replys. Lets see...

This is the evaporator:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v282/dkutina/Maple%20Evaporator/P1030511.jpg

and last season with the cafeteria trays:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v282/dkutina/Maple%20Evaporator/P1030523.jpg

The reason the pan is 24 x 24 is that the barrel stove kit I used for the door had a nice adapter for the chimney but it had to go on the round part of the barrel. I suppose I could make something up so it exits out the side, but it's already built.


I will be welding with a MIG.

I hadn't thought about the empty pan on the fire, that's an excellent point. I should put handles as well as a draw off on the pan. That way I can drain it down to the point where I can lift it off. Is it safe to solder copper fittings to the stainless pan? Might the pan get too hot on the fire and the solder fail? What kind of solder is 'food safe' in this situation?

Sorry for all the questions. General welding I'm pretty comfortable with, but this pan is going to require some new skills!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

That's a nice preheater but if it is in an evaporator hood, it is going to be a bear to try to drain it every night. Series flow preheaters are probably the best, but hardly anyone uses them due to difficulty in trying to drain them at the end of the boil. Copper freezes very easiliy and busts even more easily.

[Bucket Head]

Cabby,

The first year we used the evap. with the flat pans, we pulled the pans off and emtied them. Batch style, after the fire had died down. Same way with our old flat pans on the cement block fireplaces. Wether you have a valve or not, you don't want your pans in contact with the heat with little liquid in them.

As for solder, you don't need anything special. As long as there's liquid in a soldered pan, it won't burn and melt with flame contact. When we first boiled, we used an originally non-soldered dish collecting pan from a restaurant that my father had someone solder. Used it for years without a problem until we got the rig were using now.

Brandon- Why do you say my preheater would be problematic in a hood? Where do you think I've been using it now for years without a single issue?

When were done boiling and the feed tank is empty, I disconnect the float from the float box valve and the preheater drains out. It has never frozen and split. The outlet is much lower than the inlet so it has no choice but to drain out. Maybe the pic does'nt show that well due to the angle of the shot? I would'nt hesitate to recomend my style preheater to anyone.
It works flawlessly. I don't know what temperature the sap is coming out of it is, we've never put a therm. in it. (I'll do that this season) But I can say you can't put a bare hand on the outlet pipe. It does what its supposed to. And I was not about to pay the insane price the factory wanted for a preheater and hood.

Steve

[82cabby]

As for solder, you don't need anything special. As long as there's liquid in a soldered pan, it won't burn and melt with flame contact. When we first boiled, we used an originally non-soldered dish collecting pan from a restaurant that my father had someone solder. Used it for years without a problem until we got the rig were using now.

So the same solder I use for plumbing then... I can do that. I think I am going to need a draw off, just to get the weight out of the pan so I can lift the rest off the evaporator.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Go out and get some house for sale signs cut it down to fit the pan rims and put it down before the pan then you can pick it up and dump throw in some sap and you back in the game. dont make the handles to big or you might hit them. You have plenty of welder to do the work. I dont know what people are so worried about a litte ash in the evap it doesnt hurt a thing will work like filter aid.

[82cabby]

Go out and get some house for sale signs cut it down to fit the pan rims and put it down before the pan then you can pick it up and dump throw in some sap and you back in the game.

I'm not sure I know what you mean.

[Bucket Head]

Yes, as far as I know, the same solder that you use for plumbing. The drain on my condensate tray is a copper fitting soldered on. All the solder at the plumbing supply is lead free so thats not a worry.

Is there a better solder out there for Cabby's project? Anyone know of something better than the Home Depot variety solder? Just wondering myself.

Steve

[vtsnowedin]

Yes, as far as I know, the same solder that you use for plumbing. The drain on my condensate tray is a copper fitting soldered on. All the solder at the plumbing supply is lead free so thats not a worry.

Is there a better solder out there for Cabby's project? Anyone know of something better than the Home Depot variety solder? Just wondering myself.

Steve
Careful careful! You can still buy lead solder for electrical work so you need to read the label.

[Bucket Head]

Yes! Reading labels is always a good idea.

However, solder for plumbing these days is clearly labled "Lead Free". Well, at least whats availiable around here is.

Do the big box stores even carry any solder for electrical connections? Solderless, crimp style connectors and wire nuts are all over, but I rarely see solder anymore. Too bad to. You can't get a better connection than that.

Steve

[vtsnowedin]

Yes! Reading labels is always a good idea.

However, solder for plumbing these days is clearly labled "Lead Free". Well, at least whats availiable around here is.

Do the big box stores even carry any solder for electrical connections? Solderless, crimp style connectors and wire nuts are all over, but I rarely see solder anymore. Too bad to. You can't get a better connection than that.

Steve
I bought a roll of 50/50 last week in the local small box store to resolder a galvy roof jack. It was just one isle over from the plumbing stuff. +1 on the soldered connections vs. wire nuts.

[KenWP]

We have two kinds of lead free solder. One says silver plate and the other just says lead free for electircal work. They both work one ends up with more shine then the other. You have to check around as the prices are crazy on it also. I can get it for $8 bucks a roll difference between stores

[Haynes Forest Products]

What ever happened to silver solder anyway...................OPPS there goes a can of worms.

[82cabby]

Bucket Head -

On your condensate drip pan how did you handle the corners? Just weld them edge to edge or did you have some sort of tab that wrapped around? I am working on the drawing for my pan now and not sure how to handle the corner.

[82cabby]

Ok, and (yet another) question for everyone... Stainless sheet comes in a couple of different types. I am guessing different formulations. The two I keep seeing are 304 and 316. Does it make a difference which one I get?

[Bucket Head]

Theres a tab wrapped around and the corners are soldered.

300 series stainless is food grade. 304 is used the most from what I've seen. That is what I used and I also got 304 plumbing fittings. 304 is marked on them or cast right into them so theres no doubt.

Steve

[Haynes Forest Products]

Some food grade stainless steel is magnetic. Like knives that they stick to magnet bars in food prep................you know food grade magnets:)

[KenWP]

You have Ferrous and non ferrous SS. The more chromium and nickle the less a magnet sticks to it. Also non ferrous ss dosn't rust as easy. They made some pans in Quebec couple years ago out of cheaper SS and they developed pin holes all over.