Food Processor Establishment License, USDA

[southfork]

I just finished having my syrup shack and operations inspected by the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture. I found them to be extremely helpful and understanding in the process of maple syrup premise registration and licensure. I would urge all affected producers to get on board and not fear the application process.

The USDA Food Safety inspector in my area of Oneida County, Ami Johnson, was knowledgable, helpful, and an asset to the USDA and the maple syrup community.

Race Foster,
Rhinelander, Wisconsin
750 buckets

[Haynes Forest Products]

The lady that did my inspection was great. Out of Green Bay she asked if she could bring her coffee into the Kitchen/bottling room. I was sure Im drinking beer why not and she told me that during bottling you cant have open liquids or food open and in the area:mad: So now I bulk everything so I can get back to eating and drinking.

I do think that its the way to go is to get on the up and up so when they start throwing crazy things our way we are grandfatherd in.

[Dave Puhl]

Not to start anything .....but this so called requirement is just more goverment stuff.....it will only cut down on the mom and pop operrations...not all of us have the buildings to do this.....

[Rhino]

Heard yeaterday that they are looking into only requireing producers that make over $5000 a year to be licensed. Meeting this week to discuss it. stay tuned. I guess the packers got a memo/letter about this.

[sap runner]

I agree,It isn't worth spending 5000.00 dollars to get a sticker so I can sell 1000.00 worth of product.I hope something changes because that takes all the fun out of it ,including the couple of nickles i was trying to make.

[C.Wilcox]

Guys,

Does this new regulation affect people selling from their homes and at farmer's markets or is it just aimed at retail and commercial sales?

[jfroe939]

Guys,

Does this new regulation affect people selling from their homes and at farmer's markets or is it just aimed at retail and commercial sales?

Don't know if this helps, but I'm pretty sure the current law states that if you sell at a farmer's market, fair, or flea market and "I think" from your home that you aren't required to have a license either. Only if you sell retail or to another producer that sells retail and/or bulk would you need a license. The "from your home" part I'm not totally sure about, but the farmers' market, etc I am sure about not needing a license. Jason

[lpakiz]

The way I understood it is you can sell where ever and when ever to the END USER or CONSUMER, including from your home or "farm gate" as it's called. . Only if you sell to some one who will RESELL do you need the license. This includes to packers or if you were to place on consignment or sell to a grocery store or restaurant, where they would RESELL it.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im all for paying the $90.00 to prove that my operation is up to Code IF and I say IF I want to sell to a wholesaler. I dont think that if you make 5 gallons your going to be dependent on selling to the big companys.

[Dave Puhl]

The main effect is that you cannot sell bulk anymore if you are not licensed. And you cannot buy bulk syrup from a unlicensed producer.

[Frank Ivy]

It's like everything else . . .

the lie that's told is that "regulations and laws are bad for business."

The truth is that regulations and laws are GREAT for BIG business, and really, really bad for SMALL business.

And given that Congress is bought and sold by large corporations, regulations become a way of stomping out small competition.

For example, in most states it's illegal to sell all-natural (unboiled, unshaken) milk to your adult, consenting neighbor.

Is it for your neighbor's health? Meh. It's so that local, small dairy operations can't compete with the 1,000 head, mega-corp owned dairy 3 states away.

If it was really about health, they'd make GIVING all-natural milk away illegal (that's the case in at least one state).

The license for "large" maple syrup producers is just the camelnose-under-the-tent. Figure in 20 years if you put a nail in a maple tree you'll need to ask Chuck Shumer himself for written permission.

License? What on earth for? Have they fabricated a problem yet?

Money, control, money, control.

[markcasper]

Frank Ivy, You hit the nail on the head, we are frantically on our way to 3rd world status.

[C.Wilcox]

Thanks guys. That confirms what I had thought.

[elmcreekmaple]

It's like everything else . . .

the lie that's told is that "regulations and laws are bad for business."

The truth is that regulations and laws are GREAT for BIG business, and really, really bad for SMALL business.

And given that Congress is bought and sold by large corporations, regulations become a way of stomping out small competition.

For example, in most states it's illegal to sell all-natural (unboiled, unshaken) milk to your adult, consenting neighbor.

Is it for your neighbor's health? Meh. It's so that local, small dairy operations can't compete with the 1,000 head, mega-corp owned dairy 3 states away.

If it was really about health, they'd make GIVING all-natural milk away illegal (that's the case in at least one state).

The license for "large" maple syrup producers is just the camelnose-under-the-tent. Figure in 20 years if you put a nail in a maple tree you'll need to ask Chuck Shumer himself for written permission.

License? What on earth for? Have they fabricated a problem yet?

Money, control, money, control.

AMEN BROTHER

[markcasper]

In reading the past posts, there does have to be some rules and regulations, otherwise people would kill one another on a mass scale.The problem is when government starts to hassle the people. In the United States we have a republic which is governed by those it serves. Something to keep in mind!

[Frank Ivy]

In reading the past posts, there does have to be some rules and regulations, otherwise people would kill one another on a mass scale.

Right. We all agree that murder should be a crime enforced by the state.

That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about maple syrup. People aren't dying because there is a lack of regulations for syrup.


The problem is when government starts to hassle the people. In the United States we have a republic which is governed by those it serves. Something to keep in mind!
Yeah. They served all of us here real nice when they handed 800 bill. of our money to banks in NYC. I'll keep it in mind.

And for my 2 cents, when I can't sell ANY food product I make on my own property to my neighbors, who know exactly how it's being grown, I AM being more than hassled.

[Haynes Forest Products]

OK guys lets put the tin foil hats back in the closet. Without the rule of law we are all screwed. Markcasper dont you have a license to sell raw milk to a Wholesaler? How would you like it if the truck that just left your farm stoped out on the road and some guy that has one cow without a license and inspection stopped the truck and tossed in 5 gallons of raw milk?

You think your pissed now Just wait till your elected official down at the capital that you might not have voted for starts implementing the homeland security precautions proposed for food wholesalers:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Frank Ivy]

OK guys lets put the tin foil hats back in the closet. Without the rule of law we are all screwed.
I suppose it's a matter of perspective. From my perspective, we're screwed either way.

Regarding laws - one example - there should be no laws restricting what a man can sell to another man as long as each party consents to the transaction and the history of the food is truthfully revealed. As in - we picked apples from our orchard, we squeezed them, this here's the juice. No pesticides of any kind.

I don't need the govt. to tell me what food is ok for me to eat - the beef they say is OK to eat frequently kills people. Most of the garbage that is sold in packages in grocery stores is horrible for you but the gov. is fine with it.

[ryan marquette]

I agree in many cases the govt. can be overbearing. In this case I don't think that the license & inspection is all bad. It is forcing myself to make updates to my operation which will make things a lot nicer for me:
-Having a shack to boil, no more ash, dirt, & leaves blowing in the pans on windy days.
-Wash sinks & water, no more trying to get everything in a pail to clean it.
-No more exploding light bulbs sending pcs. flying.
-Clean room that I can set up tables, you don't know how nice it will be to have some place to set my clean equipment, no more stacking on top of other things to keep of the floor.
-No gas cans getting tipped over next to a pail of syrup.

I am fine with the rules because I think it will help me make a better food product. Not to say that this won't lead to bad things. I don't know.
(FYI in WI we can sell syrup to our neighbors & other people & sell at fairs & farm markets without a license)

[petersp22]

It's funny how we got from this original post to "government is out to get the little guy".

The rules relevant to this discussion are to protect the consumer. I read scary stories on this forum that if the average consumer knew, they probably would not view maple favorably.

I heard a quote one time - attributed to a WWII bomber pilot "You know you're over the target when you start to draw fire." I don't understand why anyone would object to standards of sanitation...

As maple producers I believe you should welcome a system that assures the playing field is even for you and your competitors and that assures the consumer your product is safe to enjoy.

Or maybe DATCP really is in the pocket of the big Wisconsin Maple syndicates. And maybe Haynes, Southfork, and me are part of the conspiracy. Hand me that tin foil.



I just finished having my syrup shack and operations inspected by the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture. I found them to be extremely helpful and understanding in the process of maple syrup premise registration and licensure. I would urge all affected producers to get on board and not fear the application process.

The USDA Food Safety inspector in my area of Oneida County, Ami Johnson, was knowledgable, helpful, and an asset to the USDA and the maple syrup community.

Race Foster,
Rhinelander, Wisconsin
750 buckets

[dschultz]

Called the inspector yesterday to set up a time and date to get inspected.
Here's what he told me.
He said that the pickel bill pasted.That's where if you sell less than $5,000 to a buyer then you don't need a license.I told him I sell more than that and need to be inspected so I can sell bulk before the season starts.
That's when he told me to wait a week or 2 and call him back. Because another bill is going in to get passed to see if you need a license at all to sell bulk to a buyer.
But either way I'm ready.

[driske]

My .02.
Over the years inspections have raised the quality of the product I produce. Yes , it's sometimes a pain in the behind. No, I wouldn't have enacted some of the practices without a nudge from a regulatory agency.
I suspect I am not alone in this regard. If we as producers see less substandard syrup being produced and offered to the public this will be a win /win situation in the end. We all incur a loss when a customer is turned off by off flavored syrup.
That said enacting new cleansing protocols is a chancy area as well. Every taste of perfumed, chlorinated, cross-contaminated from a cleaning agent, syrup people get, will turn them off just as sure as mold, cloudy etc.
There is no substitute for clean hot water and elbow grease. Flavor check everything you pack, from 3.4oz. to 55 gallon drums.

[Frank Ivy]

It's funny how we got from this original post to "government is out to get the little guy".


Actually, it's the big guy is out to get the little guy - government is just the mechanism by which to do it.


The rules relevant to this discussion are to protect the consumer.
The rules are meant to protect big business from competition.
If what you're suggesting was true, and government inspection was meant to "protect the consumer," then the following would happen immediately:

1. All the thousand-animal beef feedlots that have animals crawling all over each other that are responsible for 100% of the mad-cow and e. coli cases because of the conditions would be shut down and there would be maximums set for animals per square foot and animals processed per hour and minimum animal per inspection.
2. Beef from other countries would not be allowed to be mixed in with beef from the U.S..
3. Ammonia-washed beef grind would not be in 85% of all fast-food hamburgers.

1-3, and many others, exist because the rules aren't there to protect you. E. coli contamination is accepted only because it is the mega corps of the world that own the gigantic feed lots, and they buy the laws. Get rid of the feed lots, you get rid of 99% of the problem.


I read scary stories on this forum that if the average consumer knew, they probably would not view maple favorably.

If you think the occasional visit by a government inspector is going to improve things, you're completely backwards. What government inspection will do is drive the industry towards big-business, profit at any cost. When the Mega-corp owned or controlled sugar bushes want to pump out more syrup for less, they'll do things like - wash beef with ammonia. And the government will stamp it as OK, and force the little guy to do the same thing to compete or get out.


I don't understand why anyone would object to standards of sanitation...

1. Because it's the camel's nose under the tent, that's why. It starts with a general inspection. Then it becomes specific. Then, before you know it, they're implementing rules that require bacterial swipes and lab submissions. Before you know it, mega-corp figures out that you can get more syrup if you do X, Y, and Z, and if you flush all lines with chemical Q you can get clearer syrup, and before you know it flushing lines becomes another rule. And packaging needs to have a hermetic seal. And syrup needs to brought to a certain, verified temp for pastuerization, and containers must be kept refrigerated. And I could write 10 more pages of what can happen when big business decides it wants a bigger piece of the pie. Why? Because I worked at a place in DC that was wall to wall lobbyists, and we represented fortune 500 companies exclusively. When the want market share, the first thing they do is get rid of local competition. It's what happened to the dairy industry, the chicken and beef industries, and a host of others. If I was still working for corporation A, and they wanted a greater market share of maple syrup, it would be a very easy path - implement regs that prevent direct selling to consumers without a license and inspections, pass laws that force larger producers to either sell bulk to me at low prices or be outcompeted on the direct market, and so on.


As maple producers I believe you should welcome a system that assures the playing field is even for you and your competitors and that assures the consumer your product is safe to enjoy.

If you are a small-medium maple producer doing it for profit, the "system" will eventually force you out if they get their laws passed. If you think the government passing laws is going to help you "even the playing field" with large corporate interests, then I suggest that go ask all the former local dairy farmers how the laws helped them.

As for assuring that the product is "safe to enjoy", is Peter writing commercials for big Ag? Is your product NOT safe to enjoy right now?

And better yet - do you really think that the guys who are putting out an unsafe product right now are going to suddenly develop scruples because, har-har, the government is sending out a stooge once a week?

What government regs will do is drive up costs and create gaming of the system, like in every other thing the government touches.

"Assure your product is safe"! That is hilarious. You, yourself, can't handle making syrup safely, so the government is going to hold your hand.


Hand me that tin foil.
I would, except there's a reg that specifically prohibits the use of tin foil within 125 feet of an evaporator, unless said evaporator is not capable of evaporating more than 100 gallons of water per hour, excepting during the final week of sugaring season, as defined elsewhere herein.

You got it coming.

[southfork]

I actually enjoyed my inspection process. If the licensing provides the consumer with some confidence I do not see that as a negative.

I found the process to be painless and informative, but I guess that is a matter of perspective.

[maple ridge tappers]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge this is a federal mandate, yet the state of Wisconsin is the only one that is enforcing it?

[Haynes Forest Products]

After all we are making food right? and if done wrong people could get sick right? So for 90 bucks and some common sense rules the state will license our facility to do so. Sounds reasonable to me.

[Dave Puhl]

Man o Man....the sky is falling....for those who have the set ups to pass more power to ya...to call anyone to say they are making bad stuff come on...most do it for FUN. This so called mandate is ...oh well make it what you want....ALL of us have been making great tasting syrup for a while and we wont let some RED TAPE stop that.....Have a Great time cooking all....and be sure to invite your friends over to help.....NUFF SAID....

[Frank Ivy]

Man o Man....the sky is falling....for those who have the set ups to pass more power to ya...to call anyone to say they are making bad stuff come on...most do it for FUN. This so called mandate is ...oh well make it what you want....ALL of us have been making great tasting syrup for a while and we wont let some RED TAPE stop that.....Have a Great time cooking all....and be sure to invite your friends over to help.....NUFF SAID....

Amen, brother.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dave Im not big on government intervention BUT you say All of us have been making great tasting syrup. Well sadly thats not true. If you go back and read some of the post about off flavord or ropey syrup. What if that was mixed with yours and then brought to a wholesaler and they rejected it. Even the best steak house will serve a bad meal once in a while. Its the ones that try and pass off bad meat as OK just like someone making bad syrup then selling it to your neighbor down the road.

[Houranch]

I conracted the Wisconsin USDA a couple of days ago to ask about licensing requirements,, it is pretty simple,,,, the ONLY time that you need a license is if you sell to other retailers,, or if you buy raw sap, if you are selling the product yourself whether it is from a roadside stand, or at a flea market, you DON'T need a license or inspection,,
REMEMBER,, ,, no license if you sell it directly to the consumer,,, IFyou sell your product to someone so they can market your product,, you need an inspection and license,,
rule ATCP-70 Food Processing Plants,, ... have fun,,