Antimicrobial taps

[red maples]

Anyone see those new Maple inovations' green antimicrobial health spout?
anyone try it yet.
$.98 a piece. thats a bit expensive I think. just curious if anyone has any feed back yet.

I will be changing out mine to check vavles for next year.

[ejmaple]

i'am also thinking about switching to check valves next season. i'am also on gravity and am hoping we hear some feed back from someone who's useing them on gravity this season.

[mapleack]

The checkvalves are designed with vacuum in mind, I dont think they'll help at all on a gravity system. Here's the link to the big check valve thread here on maple trader http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=6978&page=1
IMO, I'd just use replaceable tip spiles if you're only using gravity tubing.

[DrTimPerkins]

Anyone see those new Maple inovations' green antimicrobial health spout?

We did research on antimicrobial spouts and dropline for a couple of years (before this product appeared). A paper describing this work will be coming out in the next Maple Digest (April 2010) and posted on the UVM Proctor Maple Research Center website shortly afterward. Briefly, antimicrobial spouts alone were only slightly effective the first year (about 1-5% better than using a new spout alone). Antimicrobial spouts with antimicrobial drops were moderately effective in the first year. A NEW antimicrobial spout and NEW antimicrobial dropline essentially matched a NEW CV spout prototype with USED dropline the first year. By the second year, the "antimicrobial" dropline was no longer effective. All the active agent (silver) had been exhausted by the high levels of bacteria that occur in sap. Presumably the same would be true of the spouts, since the technology and materials used are the same. Our conclusion is that you would need to replace the antimicrobial spouts and dropline each year in order to maintain their effectiveness.

ONE MAJOR WARNING. If you are a Certified Organic maple producer, you should NOT use these spouts. The materials are not on the approved organic materials list. Using these spouts will void your certification.

[DrTimPerkins]

The checkvalves are designed with vacuum in mind, I dont think they'll help at all on a gravity system.

That is true. They were designed for vacuum use, and will undoubtedly work better in vacuum tubing operations. However, trees under gravity can also experience backflow conditions, particularly during the freeze cycle when trees suck sap from the soil into the tree. Given the opportunity, they will also suck sap back from the dropline. They cannot pull it as far as they will under vacuum (when you get a large amount of vacuum in the stem), but under some conditions, they can pull from 1/2 pint to 1.5 quarts of sap back into the tree. The CV adapter will prevent this.

There was a study by Steve Childs (Cornell Univ Maple Program) using check-valves on gravity tubing. Although the check-valves were a different type, they did see improvements in sap yield using check-valves on gravity tubing. We do not plan on doing any work on the CV adapter on gravity, so I too am interested in hearing reports of their use in the field.

[mountainvan]

I have 100 in the woods now and plan to get more. Cornell is using the "actual" spile made by maple innovations this year, so there should be better information end of this sugaring season. From my understanding the amount of antimicrobial material is greater than the material previously tested, so they should last more than a year. They are FDA, EPA, and Vermont approved for use in the making of maple syrup.

[caseyssugarshack93]

at .98 cents a peice, things can get a little expensive with those , I think i may try a few tough, maybe one or 2 laterals, just to see how they work, but probably would be hard to tell, since they would be connected to other taps,

[Frank Ivy]

Funny thing that silver isn't considered "organic". It's an element for heck's sake!!!

What is the usual course of action to deal with bacteria?

[red maples]

I think from reading through the check valve threads and learning about the microbial spouts the check valves are the way to go there is always going to bacteria no matter what but stopping stopping the flow back into the hole is huge which you can't stop with antmicrobial spouts and they will not kill everything. so you will get so much time before the hole closes off.

Dr. Perkins,
what type of anti bacterial drops have been tested and what types are truly effective? I know your testing a new one this year, if I read that correctly somewhere.

[DrTimPerkins]

They are FDA, EPA, and Vermont approved for use in the making of maple syrup.

I question the validity of this statement. They are FDA and EPA approved for water. Who in Vermont "approved" them for use in making maple syrup?

[DrTimPerkins]

I have 100 in the woods now and plan to get more. Cornell is using the "actual" spile made by maple innovations this year, so there should be better information end of this sugaring season.

Unfortunately one season of research won't tell the full story. In our work, spouts alone were marginally effective (better when both the antimicrobial spout and antimicrobial dropline were used) in the first season, but were no longer effective by the second year. As far as I am aware, we are the only research group who have actually put antimicrobial spouts in trees so far. There has been no research results presented by the manufacturer.

[DrTimPerkins]

I know your testing a new one this year, if I read that correctly somewhere.

We are no longer pursuing any research on antimicrobial silver in maple sap collection systems. We do not consider it a viable approach, partly due to low level of effectiveness the first year, loss of effectiveness in the second year, and high cost. The last reason is that we want to renew our organic certification, which is not possible with this technology.

[DrTimPerkins]

Funny thing that silver isn't considered "organic". It's an element for heck's sake!!!

What is the usual course of action to deal with bacteria?

So is lead, so is mercury, so is plutonium.

Actually it isn't the silver that is the problem. It is the nano-particle carrier that is the biggest impediment to organic certification.

Normally bacteria are throughout the system and there isn't much you can do other than replace your spouts annual (helps some), replace your drops (helps more), clean your tubing (might help a bit), or replace your tubing system (helps a lot).

[Haynes Forest Products]

So is salt water and Asbestos but not when its mixed with maple syrup. Dr Perkins how do you detect the presence of bacteria Swabs in a petri dish or microscope? Do you check the sap or the surounding surface or both?

[KenWP]

I had to have all my fillings removed from my teeth and they were silver. What didn't help was the mercury they were mixed with. If silver it's self was bad we would all be dead eating off of our sterling silver dinner ware.

[DrTimPerkins]

I had to have all my fillings removed from my teeth and they were silver. What didn't help was the mercury they were mixed with. If silver it's self was bad we would all be dead eating off of our sterling silver dinner ware.

Silver by itself is not bad. In metallic form (dinnerware), it gets coated quickly with an oxide.

In this case, it is the nano-particle carrier that is not allowed by the organic rules.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Perkins how do you detect the presence of bacteria Swabs in a petri dish or microscope? Do you check the sap or the surounding surface or both?

It is possible to measure presence/absence or even levels of contamination in either liquid (sap) or on surfaces (in tubing or spouts). The device we use is called a Charm Sciences Firefly http://www.charm.com/content/view/62/105/lang,en/ which uses chemical similar to what a firefly (bug) produces. When this chemical is mixed with any living material containing ATP (adenosine triphosphate -- the molecule that is essentially the fuel for all cells), it reacts by producing a glow. The Firefly device is basically a very sensitive light meter that reads this glow, and converts it to a microbial contamination level. Research has demonstrated that this works well in sap. Very quick and easy (but not cheap) system. Much better than the old way of culturing in petri dishes and counting microbial colonies.

[DrTimPerkins]

From my understanding the amount of antimicrobial material is greater than the material previously tested, so they should last more than a year.

I have heard the same thing, but it is impossible to assess the validity of the statement given the near total lack of information available. We were previously told with the materials we used that the antimicrobial silver effect would be good for the "lifetime of the material". Our results indicated this was far from the case when you use these materials with maple sap, and that the effectiveness was gone after just 1 year.

Other questions I have:

1. How much silver ends up in the sap and syrup? Probably not a lot based upon our limited testing, however it should be checked....especially for the first couple of sap runs and also for someone who uses both silver spouts and silver droplines.

2. Does the antimicrobial material have any impact on tree wounding or taphole closure? Probably not...but again, it should be checked to be sure that the antimicrobial material is not impeding the recovery of the tree from the wound created by tapping.

[Frank Ivy]

So is lead, so is mercury, so is plutonium.
So they're all organic. Really quite simple. Organic, in the food industry, means, to consumers anyway, "not synthetic."

Your, hopefully, light-hearted quip that a radioactive element is organic is a red herring. Plutonium is organic. Period. Whether or not some food agency will allow it in food is immaterial to the fact that it's organic.

The fact is, organic food has become just one more victim of the mega-corp food tragedy in the United States. For example, a beef product that is present in about 80% of all McDonald's-type hamburgers is washed with ammonia. That's right folks - ammonia. Watch the movie "food-inc" to get more info on that gem.

"Organic" started out as a way to label food as "synthetic chemical" free. Since its introduction, however, it has been co-opted by mega-corps and now is just one more component in the ongoing deception of the American consumer.

FOR EXAMPLE - processed organic food in the U.S. has the quite funny requirement of "having at least 95% organic content."!!!! So if you've got 4% that is not organic, that's ok. You think the average consumer buying organic whatevers off the shelf understands that?

Getting back to organic - Bt toxin is organic! Zoinks! But not the gene! They put the gene for the Bt toxin in corn, and other crops, and the corn is suddenly not "organic" because it is transgenic. But! Get this! If you spray regular old corn with Bt toxin spray . . . wait for it . . . it's organic! Why? Because Bt toxin is made organically, not synthetically, by a bacterium. Of course botulinin toxin is also organic, and a gallon of that could kill every human on earth!

So silver is as organic as organic gets. It's an element, untouched by the hand of man. The fact that some agency will or won't allow silver in some food or another is not an issue of being organic.

So what is the bacteria count in a jug of maple syrup?
If it's not zero, like with milk, then what it is?
And how much would silver help if it's only in a few components? Hard to see it reducing the bacterial count by much.
Does some government agency test for bacteria in MS? Should they? What are the standards?

The silver technology sounds like a solution in search of a problem.

[Frank Ivy]

Silver by itself is not bad. In metallic form (dinnerware), it gets coated quickly with an oxide.
To be exact, the silver itself is oxidized.

[Frank Ivy]

a firefly (bug) produces.
For scientific clarity, a firefly is a beetle, not a bug. A "bug" is a member of the order Hemiptera, which includes such beauties as hoppers, aphids, and cicadas.



When this chemical is mixed with any living material containing ATP (adenosine triphosphate -- the molecule that is essentially the fuel for all cells),

Once again, as a point of scientific exactness, if one were to present an analogy to represent ATP in cells, ATP would best be viewed as a rechargeable battery that is continuously charged and discharged, and not at all a "fuel."

Cells are fueled by sugar, or, when sugar is not present, by fats and proteins and alcohols, for the most part. ATP's role is to temporarily store the energy that is released when the sugar is burned in the cell, and then release that energy when needed.

[KenWP]

We used the tester to test for bacteria in the trucks we hauled breeding stock to the US with. By the time we finished washing one of those trucks you could eat off the floor.

[Frank Ivy]

We used the tester to test for bacteria in the trucks we hauled breeding stock to the US with. By the time we finished washing one of those trucks you could eat off the floor.

No thank you. :lol:

In any case, that tester wouldn't detect prions, and E. coli or Salmonella is usually just going to get you sick, whereas BSE (mad cow), scrapies, and the like will kill you dead, 100%.

[xulgiy]

Hopper as in leaf hopper...not grass hopper, which would be Orthoptera. Just for scientific clarification..
"bugs" are Hemiptera..Homoptera are leaf hoppers, aphids and cicadas.

[DrTimPerkins]

To be exact, the silver itself is oxidized.

Correct. It transitions from a metallic form to an oxide.

[DrTimPerkins]

For scientific clarity, a firefly is a beetle, not a bug.
<snip>
Once again, as a point of scientific exactness, if one were to present an analogy to represent ATP in cells, ATP would best be viewed as a rechargeable battery
<snip>


Technically correct in both cases. Given that this is not a strictly scientific venue, I felt the colloquial answer would be sufficient.

[DrTimPerkins]

Organic, in the food industry, means, to consumers anyway, "not synthetic."
<snip>
So silver is as organic as organic gets.

The definition depends upon who is doing the defining. If you wish to be certifed organic, you must abide by the rules of the organic certifying entity.

In this case, antimicrobial silver does not appear on the list of approved materials for organic food production. Therefore, food (including maple syrup) produced with this technology cannot be "certified organic."

In general however, the issue for organic certification is not so much the silver, but the nano-carrier.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Funny thing about all this organic stuff is that is appears to be a big crock for people to make a lot more money at the expense of supposedly educated people that appears aren't as educated as they think they are. Organic food.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Funny thing about all this organic stuff is that is appears to be a big crock for people to make a lot more money at the expense of supposedly educated people that appears aren't as educated as they think they are or are led to believe by higher experts. The many year long study in London that came out a week or two ago found no health benefit in eating organic over non-organic food.

[DrTimPerkins]

The many year long study in London that came out a week or two ago found no health benefit in eating organic over non-organic food.

There have been several studies that have come to about the same conclusion -- nutritionally there is no difference between organic and non-organic food. However there are a number of reasons some people choose to consume organic food and/or use organic products, not just nutrition. I'm not going to make those arguments, just pointing out that there are several reasons.

For many years we choose not to get certified for organic production. We eventually realized that by making a few very small changs (mostly the type of defoamer we use), we could gain $0.25/lb for our syrup. An extra $110 per barrel is kind of nice.

[mapleman3]

Great Thread here, BUT lets not get to the point of flaming each other, I would hate for this to get too heated and start really getting on each other. Dr. Perkins thank you for the research done, nice to have that point of view and also you other guys here, it's good to discuss your views and findings from your own use. Please everyone just make sure your not running someone out of town for their opinions... Thanks

[mountainvan]

Sorry to see UVM is not trying the new antimicrobial spile. It's nice to get findings from different researchers and see how the findings compare, but I'm sure Cornell will do a very thorough job. It is an excellent facility.

[DrTimPerkins]

Sorry to see UVM is not trying the new antimicrobial spile.

It is simply not possible to try everything that is out there. Funding, staffing, and the short length of the sugaring season limit what we are able to do in any one season. There is no lack of good things to study.

I agree that the Cornell Maple Program folks are well equipped to study this. Unfortunately, it'll take at least two years of work to determine whether any effect found the first year is retained in subsequent sugaring seasons. That is often the case with many things in maple. One question....was Cornell provided funding to do this research?

I am a bit disappointed that we've seen no testing results from the manufacturer. This isn't atypical though in the maple industry.

As for UVM PMRC, we've already done two years of work with antimicrobial silver (which to my knowledge is two years more than anyone else) and a paper has been submitted on our work and will soon be published. That is a good end point for us. We are satisfied, exactly like the maple scientists who investigated antimicrobial silver back in the 1950's, that, "...the effect is of a slight magnitude and of little practical value." That is the one of the main reasons we will not continue this line of research. The second is....we've got plenty of other (potentially more promising) tricks up our sleeves. More on that after the season is over. :)

[Frank Ivy]

There have been several studies that have come to about the same conclusion -- nutritionally there is no difference between organic and non-organic food. However there are a number of reasons some people choose to consume organic food and/or use organic products, not just nutrition. I'm not going to make those arguments, just pointing out that there are several reasons.

For many years we choose not to get certified for organic production. We eventually realized that by making a few very small changs (mostly the type of defoamer we use), we could gain $0.25/lb for our syrup. An extra $110 per barrel is kind of nice.

I have to agreed wholeheartedly with Dr. Perkins here.

From a molecular standpoint, the issue usually isn't nutrition. Bt corn and non-Bt corn are going to be virtually indistinguishable at the molecular level, with the exception of the Bt genetics, because the Bt gene is not expressed in the cob.

But why does Mr. Ivy eat only organic carrots? Because, while non-organic carrots and organic carrots will have about the same nutritional value, the non-organic carrots are very likely to have trace amounts of all kind of man-made (and women made, to be fair) nasties on them, particularly given that they are tuber/root type things that spend their whole lives packed in soil that acts as a chemical sump. Yum.

While trace amounts of most things won't kill you, a lifetime of having trace amounts of synthetic chemicals pass through your bladder might. Did you know that bladder cancer is more associated with smoking than is lung cancer? Because much of the toxic garbage in our food and in the environment is filtered and passed out of us through our urine.

So I love the concept of organic, but I'm disturbed that it has become assimilated by big business. The 95% rule, for example, should not be.

[Frank Ivy]

We are satisfied, exactly like the maple scientists who investigated antimicrobial silver back in the 1950's, that, "...the effect is of a slight magnitude and of little practical value." That is the one of the main reasons we will not continue this line of research. The second is....we've got plenty of other (potentially more promising) tricks up our sleeves. More on that after the season is over. :)

It's a good thing. I'm a cynic, it's certain, but the silver thing sounds more gimmicky than anything else. Nothing like a little hard-core science to put things in proper perspective. Thanks for the work.