Leaders Tubing Guidelines

[backyardsugarer]

I was reading leaders tubing guidelines last night and I think they are being very conservative. For example 250 taps max on 3/4" maineline and try to keep later lines under 100' and to 5 taps? Under these recommendations you may as well run a mainline to most every tree.

I am running a new tubing system on a woods of about 600 taps and I am trying to do it the right way. I am going to keep the latteral lines under 15 taps but do they really need to be under 100 feet in length?

Chris

[maplecrest]

just did a new woods and average lat line is 4 taps. tried to keep them at three. only have 2 lines with 8 taps out of 2300 taps

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Chris,
On your laterals, "Strive for Fives, and no more than 10." Keep the laterals short. If the lateral run is over 100 feet and or has more than 10 taps, the extra sap produced will justify a run of 3/4. I didn't believe it at first so now I am doing parts of it over. Anything I build now, I try for about 3 taps per lateral. If you are on vacuum it is even more important and if there is a possibility of vacuum in your future, build your lines in anticipation.
Doug

[backyardsugarer]

I can keep them under 10 taps for now and it will be on vac this year (about 20"). I do not think I can keep them all under 100feet this year but I will set it up so it is easy to update next year when I run more mainline.

Chris

[Fairfield Sugarmaker]

We have areas in our woods that are older setups with the 10 -15 taps per line and in the newest area we set up we strived to stay within the 5-10 tap per line and it hands down out produces the 10-15 tap areas. As time allows we are tearing it out and redoing with more mains and less laterals

[backyardsugarer]

Sounds unanimous so I am going to fix a few tonight and put fewer taps on them and then continue. I thought leader was a little loopy and just trying to sell more materials, but I guess not.


Chris

[DrTimPerkins]

I was reading leaders tubing guidelines last night and I think they are being very conservative. For example 250 taps max on 3/4" maineline and try to keep later lines under 100' and to 5 taps?

Hi Chris,

Is this a gravity or vacuum tubing setup? If gravity now, are you planning on putting it on vacuum later.

The recommendation of "strive for 5" is especially true for vacuum tubing systems, and as others have said, it will have a positive effect on your production. On gravity tubing systems, you can (and it is sometimes advantageous to) have more taps on a lateral line.

[gunnergo4th]

Not to hijack your thread I was wondering if this would be okay? I'm tapping roadside trees that can easily handle 3 taps per tree and I'm hoping to use 5/16. Plan is to have 15 or 12 taps per line and dump into a drum? My thinking is to tap 5 trees to the west dump into the drum then 5 trees to the east dumping into the same drum. I have 3/4" mainline but this would be easier being roadside trees as everything has to come down.

[caseyssugarshack93]

i run my main lines between 50 and 100 feet part so my later will only be that long and i do a range from on the new bush i just did from 2-6 taps per lat, but on my other bushes most have around 5-7 but some have 10, but that was just due to being close to sugaring season and i had more 5/15 tubing than main so i tryied to get as many taps as i could for the season, the less taps per lat the better you are for Vac anyway, Thats what they say anyways, not sure if its true?


Maplecrest, how far you space out your mains for 3 taps per lat, must be pretty close like 50ft? or the trees are spaced out some,

[caseyssugarshack93]

i also think 250 taps per 3/4 is a little under, i think more like 400? for a 3/4 inch line, but not sure, i mostly run 1inch anyway,

[DrTimPerkins]

...the less taps per lat the better you are for Vac anyway, Thats what they say anyways, not sure if its true?

Best production on vacuum is 1 tap/lateral (which is probably not economically feasible). You lose approximately 10% of your "possible" sap yield (with 1 tap/lateral as 100%) for every 5 taps you add. So with 5-6 taps per lateral, you're collecting 90% of the optimal amount. With 10-11 taps, 80%, etc.

[red maples]

I set mine up for gravity tubing with about 10 -12 on each lateral, but it is set up in such a way that I can add in a main line to cut the laterals down to about 3-5 taps each which is what I will do next year. shouldn't be much more to add in really just mainline and saddles and cut and connect the lateral are already run!

[backyardsugarer]

Mine is on vac. I ran 2000 feet of 5/16 tubing after work tonight with the strive for 5 principle. The highest I went was 8, but cut way down. I also only ran 2 lines over 100 feet. Dr Perkins could you explain why lines over 100 feet (even if they are going down a huge slope) cost sap production? All it took is some creativity. While running my mainline through the rest of the bush this weekend I will set it up for 5 tap runs under 100 feet.

Chris

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Perkins could you explain why lines over 100 feet (even if they are going down a huge slope) cost sap production?

Length by itself is not so much the problem as is the interaction between length and # taps on a lateral line. The reason stems from the fact that vacuum is not propagated well through liquid. If the number of taps is kept low (5 or less), then you can go a slightly longer distance.

[caseyssugarshack93]

how many taps per lat do you guys run at UVM? on a avarage?

[jcb]

What ever happed to more taps on 5/16 to create natrual vacum? I have had good luck with this. For it to work the 5/16 needs to be full and 5 taps is not going to fill it. So if you have good slpoe and are NOT using vac. why not put more taps?

[DrTimPerkins]

What ever happed to more taps on 5/16 to create natrual vacum?

That is correct. On vacuum it is "strive for 5". On gravity, having more taps per lateral, if you have decent slope, is advantageous.

[sapmaple]

I agree with leaders main line suggestions 250 on 3/4 etc. If you go over that you increase the amount of sap in the pipe and then there is less room for vac to travel up the pipe to the trees Its like a wet / dry line within one pipe need room for both yes strive for 5 but stay under 10 sometimes you need to go alittle farther to get that tree off in the corner How do you guys know you only go 100 feet with lats do you run a tape measure up each line ??? I'm happy if I get 4 lines with a roll of 5/16 sometimes even 3 lines still keep taps in the 5-10 range
Kevin

[Dill]

That is correct. On vacuum it is "strive for 5". On gravity, having more taps per lateral, if you have decent slope, is advantageous.

How much slope should I be striving for in order to take advantage of natural vacuum?

[DrTimPerkins]

How much slope should I be striving for in order to take advantage of natural vacuum?

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pubs/fls/OCRPDF/FLS-014.pdf

[DanE.]

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pubs/fls/OCRPDF/FLS-014.pdf

Dr. Perkins,

After reading this research study, I find what I have read on this message board does not line up with what was found in the research. Although I may have misunderstood the finding or what has been posted here. I read the study a couple times, but the conclusion they found was 10 tap for natural vacuum was too few at a 5% slope. they said at a 5% slope that 50 taps would create the best vacuum and most sap yield. They never said the size of the tubing.

So, Am I understanding the study correctly, and if so, then the under 10 taps per lat is strictly for vacuum?

Thanks Dan...

[ennismaple]

How do you guys know you only go 100 feet with lats do you run a tape measure up each line ??? I'm happy if I get 4 lines with a roll of 5/16 sometimes even 3 lines still keep taps in the 5-10 range
Kevin

I use my finely tuned bow hunting skills! Hmmmm, that looks like 30 yards. At least with stretching tubing if I'm off by 3 yards it's no big deal. I probably averaged 6 or 7 laterals per roll of tubing while stretching on the weekend.

[red maples]

How much slope should I be striving for in order to take advantage of natural vacuum?

I believe but am often wrong but you want to shoot for 5% slope that is what the NAMPM says to do.

[Hop Kiln Road]

Two seasons ago I change from all tubing to 1/2" main line with short laterals with 4 to 5 taps. The results so far have been very good. That 1970's study was really more about vented tubing vs unvented tubing. They drew the conclusion: unvented, the more taps and more slope the better because this created a "natural vacuum," even though their volumes on high tap / high slope tube lines dropped. Also they were putting side by side taps in the trees and the studies have shown the second tap reduces tree pressure.

In gravity systems, I think the sooner the gas is removed from the laterals, which is what happens when the lateral enters the 1/2" line, the less friction in the lateral and the faster the sap will flow. I think the shorter the lateral the more effective the natural tree pressure.

[Squaredeal]

What is the current opinion about using a wye in a mainline to reduce the number of laterals that reach way out? My feeling is that it would work better b/c although the same amount of distance would be covered, more of it would be done with tubing (3/4") that has more air space to transfer the vacuum, and could be done w/o adding an extra manifold on the conductor (wet/dry) line.
Opinions anyone?

[caseyssugarshack93]

ill be running 300-400 taps on a 3/4 inch lifter line, let you guys know how it works out, if i dont get good vac transfer il be just running a dry line to the lifter, but im pretty confendent that i will get good vac trasfer with 35o-400 taps on 3/4 inch line,

[farmall h]

Good evening Squaredeal, looks like another -20 below for tomorrow morning. brrrr

[Squaredeal]

Good evening Squaredeal, looks like another -20 below for tomorrow morning. brrrr
Likely to be so.
Guess if we don't like the cold we're in the wrong place.

[farmall h]

I think I recall a thread recenty in the past stating that "Y"s vs. 90 deg. fittings are better for vacuum. Maybe that is not relevant to your question.

[backyardsugarer]

I will take all the info. and help I can get at this point.

Chris

[Snow Hill Farm]

I'll be adding a lot of T's and Y's with 3/4" main as well to get vacuum closer to the trees and cut down on lateral lengths and believe it will help a lot. I have a friend 5 miles away, same elevation, same # of taps, same vacuum levels that made 75% more syrup than I did and we discussed it and figured out the main difference (pun intended) is he has twice as much main line in his woods than I do and very short laterals with no more than 4 taps per. I had many over 100' with more than 10 taps. I'm in the process of installing a lot more main to try and close the gap! One question I'm trying to figure out, is it worth it to extend a 3/4" main 100' to a large tree for 3 taps or just have a 100' lateral for those 3 taps. It's up hill at a 10% slope.... Not sure if it's worth the $....

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Chris,

I had several laterals with as many as 45+ taps on them and some 600 to 700 feet long. They ran great and I am sure they produced some natural vaccum. I used them as mainlines with quite a few lateral branches running into each one. Most I have switched over to 1/2" 30p because I have addedd extra taps to most of them. Be interesting to see if they do better or worse this year. I got 2300 gallon of sap in 5 days not including what ran on the ground a couple of years ago with the lines set up this way. If the conditions are right and the trees want to run, then there is no holding them back.

[wcproctor]

Remember to all that is using Lender tree saver taps 5/16 to check them before you install them this year. Some were not made right , they did not have a hole all the way through them . I found about 50 so far

[Dave Y]

Snow hill
If you are useing black water line there isn't much differnece in cost between the 3/4 pipe and the 5/16 tubing. Therefore I would run the 3/4 in pipe

[backyardsugarer]

Snow Hill,

I agree, I am learning that 100' of mainline is about $20. That is cheap compared to extra lateral lines and risk of decreased production.

Chris

[Homestead Maple]

Remember to all that is using Lender tree saver taps 5/16 to check them before you install them this year. Some were not made right , they did not have a hole all the way through them . I found about 50 so far
Does that mean a person has to blow air through any they buy to be sure there's no problem? I bought a couple hundred this spring. I suppose I should be checking them.