Tap hole life/ Drying Up

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[DougM]

While tapping this year on a day when the trees were running well I found a spout from last year that was slooowly dripping. Not recommended :)

Ours (with bags) are usually fine for about 6 weeks, as long as it does not get 50+ degrees for several days. That's when it seems like we start to get them closing up, and if it cools off after they don't run well.
(Keep in mind that wealth of knowledge is based on my previous 5 years of experience.) :?

[pegjam]

Tap hole dry out :?: Hum lets see, personal oppinion, vacuum dries them out faster than any other methoed used :?: Don't understand it, but when I use vacuum, the holes seem to dry out 2x faster than using buckets. Holes exposed to air seem to dry out faster than ones in a sealed system, such as tubing. But overall with the exception of vacuum I would agree that 6 weeks is about max.

pegjam
"Hope it helps, can't hurt."

[brookledge]

I can't understand pegjam's situation with vacuum drying out faster. Personally I have used vacuum for over 20 years. When I first put up pipe line around 1980 I had 1/2" mainline with some lateral lines that had over 50 taps on them then added vacuum and got more sap. When the manufactuers started saying 5-8 taps on laterals and no smaller than 3/4 main line I began to change things around to do that. I used to think I was doing good if I got a quart of syrup per tap. last year was my best ratio which was .41 gal per tap. This year I will have all my pipeline on vacuum and about 12 buckets a total of around 700. I'm shooting for 1/2 gal per tap. When I tap I tap all my pipe line and then a day or two later hang my buckets and my buckets still stop running before my pipe line. One thing for sure is "bacteria". Pipe line that has alot of bacteria will not run as long.
Vacuum 7 weeks
non vacuum 6 weeks
buckets 5 weeks
Keith

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

I've had mine in as long as 6 weeks and no drying up...

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Mine ran 6 weeks to the day last year but were running slow and some had stopped. I think they would have ran longer, but I had 8 straight days of no freezing and temp around 60 or above the first eight days of March which is normally the best 8 days of the year or I think they would have ran even longer than that. :D

There is no right answer, it varies on when you tap, where you are, the weather for a paticular year and tons of other factors. If you tap in Jan, they will probably still be running the end of March. :D

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

mostly the reason I pull my taps is
A. my bush with vacuum lyes in a wetland and mostly reds.. and sugar goes way down when the wet land thaws...
B I just get burnt out

[Parker]

Given I have only been paying attention at this for about 3 years,,,,,For me the trees bud out befor anythig "dries up",,we always tap around last week in feb-first week in march and go till its buddy in april,,,,but like I said,,,very limited experiance,,,,and that is about a six week time span,,,

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Kevin,

One thing to remember is that even though the tap holes don't quit running or dry up, they do slow down. The longer they are open, the slower you get. As I stated before, I used to wait until the 2nd week of March to tap down here when I was in College and would make syrup for about 6 or 7 days and make around 15 gallon off of 100 taps each year with buckets. Normally our season is about over by the 15th of March down here, but the week of the 8 to 15 is when I was doing this and was making great grade A medium syrup. It would have like be Light if I had been cooking it differently. :D

The later you can wait to tap, the harder they will run. I know this to be true because I have done it too many times. Year before last, from 103 taps on buckets, I got 775 gallon of sap in 8 days and had probably at least 225 gallon that ran on the ground or more. That is right at 10 gallon per tap in 8 days. If you hit it right, you can't even keep up and it is "katy bar the door". :lol: :lol:

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

59 -60 season if i remember correctly

[Slatebelt*Pa*Tapper]

Now are you all treating your tapped holes with the hole condition mix's. water bleech,ect.

If you treat or dont will there be a real differnce??

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Charlie,

I spray each of my freshly tapped holes with water and about 10% bleach. Has always worked for me to kill any bacteria that might be present when I tap. :D

[gmcooper]

Well guys I have to say since the late 80"s we never have treated tap holes nor have any of our friends when I've been with them (2500-5500 taps). Of all the Maple sessions I've been to the only treatment dicussed were paraformaldahyde? which is bad stuff and last year the Canadians use of denatured alchol, another bad idea. If your drilling a clean tap hole where is all this bacteria coming from? If you have a sterile hole with your solution what will keep it sterile for more than a day unless you have residue for your solution?
Just asking?
We have always gotten 6 good weeks from our taps even with the reds unless we got hit with one of those season ending heat waves.
Mark

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Mark,

Probably right, I guess it is an old school thing as a lot of the old timers used to do it from what I have been told. It is hard to keep the drill bit clean and there is possible contaminents on every tree. Guess it doesn't hurt and it helps clean out any shaving or such in the hole! :?

[themapleking]

Use a brad point drill bit. The cutting edge goes the length of the bit, not just on the point. Its the cleanest cutting bit I've used. Also buy the titanium coated, less fiction.
Use a can of dust remover to blow out any wood chips. I will spary the drill bit with hydro proxide, to sterilze the bit.
I agree theres no reason to spary the hole with any disinfected. As long as the hole is drilled with a sharp bit.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[themapleking]

The problem with pfa tablet is the holes never heal. Sap will run out of them in June. That's way NYS has band the use of them.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

So what's the verdict should we spray the taphole with a bleach solution or not. I never have and was under the impression that any extra chemicals were a bad idea. However if it extends the season and doesn't harm the tree or the sap, why not?

[gmcooper]

Thanks for the discussion. I fully agree on keeping the drill bit clean and drilling with a sharp bit for a clean cut hole. I have had good luck last 2 years with a 9/64 brad point wood bit. Best thing was no wobble or drift when starting hole as compared to some of the tapping bits I have purchased.
The PFA tablet has been banned for some time but couple years ago there was some bootleg tablets on the Canadian market and Feds tracked the manufacturer down. VT dept of Ag. spoke here last year on the denatured alcohol. Something about if the product has a skull and cross bones on it, what part of it belongs in maple production.
Mark

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

The way I look at it is if I get a quart of sap more per tap, that is 425 more quarts of sap and aprox 2+ gallon of syrup. If I get a gallon more per tap, then it is another 8.5 to 9 gallon of syrup and etc. I like to keep things sanitized and a tiny bit of bleach should hurt the trees any! :D

[Parker]

From what I have experianced,,an orchard will run the best the first year you tap it,,I have read, heard, that bacteria once on the spout is almost imposible to get off,,lives there in the plastic till next season when you tap and re introduce it to a fresh tap hole,,,is that not the reasoning behind the stainless spiles and the desposible spile ends in the Waterloo catolog,,I know a fellow who replaces his spiles (1200) every other year,,say it make a huge diffrance,,I was thinking about trying it if I had time this year on the bush I have been tapping the longest and see if it makes a diffrance?

[mapleman3]

how many years before he changes his drop lines due to losing 1/2" each year from cutting off the old? :wink: the stainless health spouts sound great but you still have to cut them off and plug your drop.. then do you have to cut your plug off too to reinstall the spout???

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I think some of this is overkill with bacteria being in the spout after the first year. I do agree it can be there but a good squirt of the solution that I spay the hole with inside the spout will do wonders too. Be a good question to ask Glenn Goodrich, 7800 gallon from 17,000 taps. 8O He might disagree with that. 8O

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[themapleking]

Stainless spouts or good, but the only way to get stainless 100% sterilized is to use a auto-clave. I.E. dentists, doctors, tatto artist.

[GregMVT]

From what I've heard Proctor only puts one tap in a tree, no matter the size of the tree. It's a lot easier to get large volumes of sap per tap this way.

[forester1]

Or how about under a UV light? The barber puts his scissors under there. Another possible use for that tank UV light. I don't know, maybe stir them once in a while.

[mapleman3]

anyone know any tatoo artists? :wink:

[themapleking]

A few :wink: ouch.

[mapleman3]

I actually have one down thestreet.. hmmm could talk to him and barter with syrup 8) and maybe get that maple leaf tatoo at the same time :D

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

so have you tapped yet???

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Bascoms is raising there prices, might be a good time to unload! :D As far as Proctor goes, they only put 1 tap per tree regardless if it is 12" or 36". I think 12" is the small tree they tap, so this has a large impact on the amount of sap they are getting. :?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Yeah the large guys may do that, but most of us work full time and have to make syrup around the work schedule, so we make it as we can. If it runs on the ground, oh well, I am past that stage. I have 900+ gallons in tanks in the woods, so if it is running over, then I have 1000 gallons to boil and that is a plenty! :D

[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

Just one more question on this bleach in the taphole stuff ( I'm going to tap this weekend so I want to get it right). I have read in many different places that when cleaning buckets and tanks etc. You should use a 5% bleach/water solution and triple rinse to remove any bleach residue. So my question is Why do I triple rinse my buckets and then spray bleach directly into the taphole? Don't get me wrong I like the Idea of using the solution for a extra clean hole but do you rinse the hole with distilled water after you clean it? What should I have with me when I tap, A spray bottle with 5% bleach solution and a cup with the same solution to dip the bit into??
Thanks again
Jason

[Brian]

I don't use bleach, I wash buckets and stuff with hot water only. I drill with clean sharp drill bits and that is it. Some guys use proxide to put on there drills every once in a while. :) Hope it helps!!

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

I just want to make sure I have the concept right, spray a bleach solution into the hole and just insert the tap, no rinse or anything else?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

Thanks, I'll try it this year and see if it makes any noticeable in the late season
Jason

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

A little chlorox in the sap isn't going to hurt anything or impart any off flavors. Years ago when I was young, I had about 150 gallon of sap trying to go bad on me and I couldn't boil it that day, so I dump a little chlorox in it. Seemed to do the trick and syrup tasted great. Don't get me wrong, I am not recommending it to anyone and wouldn't do it again, but I have used chlorox for years. This weekend when I drain all my tanks, I will take a 5 gallon bucket of water with a little chlorox and a rag and run the rag all around the inside of each tank to sanitize them good and then turn them upside down for a couple of minutes to drain. You have chlorine in your water, ever taste it in the food?????? 8O :D :wink:

[themapleking]

A little bit in a tap hole will not hurt the sap. Be warned about putting Chlorox in your sap it doesn't all boil out and will be in the syrup. You might not taste it but if someone sticks a pool test kit strip in the syrup the smallest amount of clorine will show up. BUSTED BIG TIME.
It's an old trick the alot of people including inspectors don't know about. You add clorine to syrup and you can bring it up a few grade colors. Theirs been a few operations busted from doing this. They are always making light amber and everyone else is making Dark and B.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Joe,

Interesting info, never heard it put like that. Maple inspector, never heard or seen of one. :lol: :lol: I have heard of one, just kidding, but they don't exist down here. I do try to be careful with what I do because everyone is "sue" happy down here. 8O

[mapleman3]

who is sue? is she cute? :wink:

[syrupmaker]

Hey now,your a married man. :wink:

[gmcooper]

We have Maple inspecters from Dept of Ag. They used to visit every year but not always the last few. They always tested syrup for grade and density. They always tasted for off flavors an dusually had a story or two about chlorine taste from some sugar house. They used to pass on the story to be surre you didn't forget about rising after using clorox to clean some aspect in the process. A couple weeks ago we had an area meeting on grading syrup with a tatse test of off flavors. Chlorine was one if I remember correctly.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

Women!! they're all the same.. want to get every penny out of you!! :wink:

[mapleman3]

well I'm using a small thermos with distilled water and a few capfulls of plain bleech, dipping the spout in it shaking it off(there goes the blue pants) 8O and tapping it in.. I figure a few capfulls worth in water for 100 or so taps won't amount to squat in the sap.. plus the first few releaser dumps will be let out anyway since there was a lot of water from the cleaning last season... can't hurt.. may help

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Al]

Shoot you guys are way behind the eight ball. There was a paper published by somebody that I can't remember but I might be able to find it if I really had the time but don't. They used a magnetic field to sterilize the spouts. They had a rack that would hold the spouts vertical, rotate at a slow speed to ensure complete coverage on each spout . You also had to ensure proper alignment with the earths magnetic field. If you selected the incorrect gamma strength or there was a solar flare storm you could only do this at night. The only problem with the metal spouts is that they would change polarity. Then the spouts would turn into magnets and you couldn't get them apart. 8O But they did make good refrigerator magnets to hold your messages and millions were sold to unsuspecting tourists. On the plastic spouts you had to remember to use low power about 2.25 gammas or you would warp the spouts but they were really sterilized.

April Fools!!!!!
Got mine in early because the way it's going I'll be boiling that day!!!
Take care

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Al,

You really need to tap soon and make some syrup. You have too much time on your hands. 8O 8O :D :lol: :lol: :lol:

[syrupmaker]

Al.....I'm impressed but how much of that Geneesee you bought for me did you drink? :lol:

Rick

[Al]

You think that's bad. You should hear all the sea stories I tell during hunting trips. :wink: You know,been there,done that and saved the world doing it. You all have a great day!

[gmcooper]

Well i've been conviced to try using a chlorine solution on the spouts and drillbit this yesr. Might even try a squirt or two in the tap hole. Now that the snow is getting deeper with more on the way how much gear do I have to drag thru the snow to get trees tapped. Cordless drill, extra batteries, spare drill bit, bucket of tubing supplies(to repair squirell damage since yesterday), tubing tool, something to drink, snack or two, and drum of chlorox solution. Oops almost forgot one cell phone to call 911 in case of heart attack while digging thru snow to find lost cordless drill.
Happy tapping
Mark

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Mark,

You can carry a small roll of orange ribbon with you and mark any squirrel damage and go back and repair them later in the day or the next day. Sure beats dragging everything all at the same time. :D

[brookledge]

Remember squirrels love the residue of the bleach. They love the sodium in it. You spray the tap with bleach might encourage them to have a feast. Can't win either way :(
Keith

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Beweller]

Yes, that's the one. The abstract tells me about half of what I wanted to know. The other half is the details about the technique they used.

The report comparing various agents is also of much interest.

If you have the complete reports I would very much like to obtin copies.

Thanks.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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