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Three Maples
01-05-2010, 12:48 PM
Lap Joint TIG Welding Stainless Steel Sheet Metal

First off I am not a welder just another back yard project bum that has struggled to weld stainless with TIG, Tungsten Inert Gas, or properly called Gas Tungsten-arc Welding GTAW,TIG seems easier to say.
Let’s say you are welding 20 gage stainless 304 mill grade, if you read McMaster Carr it says, “Type 304 is commonly used in chemical and food processing equipment, gutters, and flashing. It has good weldability, formablilty and temperature resistance.” I guess they have never tried to build a 20 gage stainless syrup pan.
The basics are preparation, heat, heat sink, and practice practice practice. Did I mention practice? TIG welding is a lot of little things that are accumulative, so each small thing must be addressed. This must be your mind set no hurry be meticulous.
First preparation, let’s start with the lowly ground clamp; most people forget the ground clamp as they work to get the torch tuned up. We are working in very low current or amperage settings and any loss in the ground will cause erratic torch behavior. Take the clamp apart and wire brush all connections. You may be surprised to find corrosion especially where the copper meets the stainless of the clamp. Brush up the clamp itself and brush where it will attach to the work. Clamp the ground to the work not the bench. We want a perfect as possible ground connection. Now move to the torch you will need to use .040 tungsten I would suggest 2%thorium. (There are some warnings that the thorium is radioactive or causes radiation. So that is my disclaimer there may be radiation involved in this process.) Where were we oh ya. The electrode needs to be sharpened to a pencil point and it is recommended that the sharpening be so that the abrasive lines are in the direction of the electrode. In other words do not hold the electrode sideways to the wheel and spin it, hold it straight to the wheel so that it spins down on it. I use a vertical sanding belt, some suggest a diamond wheel is best, I tried it but diamonds are too expensive. You must match the cup, collet, and nozzle to the electrode. Your welding supply can help you there. Set the electrode out where you can see it. Most books tell you to set the electrode 2 ½ times the diameter, well, make it as close as possible but you need to see it. Around ¼ inch is ok experiment see what works for you. Prepare your helmet; remove and clean the lenses you must see the puddle clearly. For thin stainless I use a # 8 lens. NOTE: DO NOT EXCEDE 50 AMPS ON A #8 LENS. IF THE ARKS SEEMS BRIGHT IT IS AND YOU MUST GO TO A HEAVIER LENS TAKE NO CHANCES NO WELD IS WORTH TAKING A CHANCE ON YOUR SIGHT. Prepare your work; all joints must be tight fit with no slag, brush clean the stainless. Preparing your welder; it is my belief if you want professional results buy the tools the pros use. A cheap TIG may well work but it will be part of the struggle. Set up the welder for 50 amps if you have a foot petal something less if you do not. Set aprox. 15 CFH strait Argon gas. Your heat should be just enough to melt a pool and blend in the metal; we will not be using a filler rod today that is a whole nother thing.
Now for heat, Stainless hates heat, it warps, burns thru and is generally a wimp when it comes to heat. So we want to heat quickly and get out. Some use higher heat and move quickly which is great if you are good at starting and moving, but if you are reading this with interest I would bet you are not ready for that. Unless you have mastered this I say less heat with good sinks.
Heat sinks; being creative with heat sinks will get you good results while you are mastering TIG. Copper is the best heat sink because is not only a great conductor of heat it will not easily weld into stainless. Other metals like steel and aluminum also have their place. Let’s talk about the lap joint on 20 gage stainless. The problem is in order to get the base hot enough to form a pool ( The pool will appear very bright like a polished chrome when it is at the proper point to blend in the overlap.) the lap will seem to run away from the torch. The way to control differential heat is to use heat sink. Now if we put a copper heat sink under the base metal and a copper heat on the lap metal we are right back to our problem. But, what if we put steel which is an ok conductor of heat under the base and laid a copper sync on the lap? Now we have a very good conductor on the lap and an ok under. With a little practice you will see that the lap will try to run away and the copper will stop the pool dead and it will blend. This type of creative heat sink has lots of other applications just try to think like a couple hot pieces of stainless.
Last thing is hold your torch like an aristocrat holding a teacup. You cannot hold the torch like a golf club. Practice holding it with the hose draped over your arm, the thumb and forefinger on the body and little finger extended. The little finger is the base and must always be touching the work. TIG is about finesse and control unless you are steady as a surgeon while in the dark you must develop an anchor for your hand, for me it is the pinky. Whenever possible you should use both hands.
Always clam your work. Clamp in the heat sink. By the way for clamping on the lap sink, 1/8 in copper will do clamped about 1/16 in back from the edge.
Lastly you must stay very close with the tip of the torch I mean very close developing forward back circular and whatever works for you. Books will show you the proper angles to use. When you touch the tip of the electrode to the work stop and reshape it yes every time. This is an incentive to learn to stay close and not touch.
Really lastly; practice until you are comfortable before you touch the arc to you project. TIG is the most difficult welding you will ever do so do not get discouraged and hurry thru the most import part and that is practice, like a concert pianist you must feel it when it is right. It is best to start sitting down at your bench as comfortable as you can be.
Now strike your torch heat the base to puddle swing over and watch the top run to the copper and blend in.

Fred Henderson
01-05-2010, 04:14 PM
So what is your point?

Bucket Head
01-05-2010, 05:59 PM
You left out a very important part, both on the prep side and cleaning up the weld after putting it down.

Never, ever, use a basic steel bristled wire brush! Always use a stainless steel-wired wire brush on stainless steel. The regular steel brush leaves minute particals of steel behind and they rust. It will make the weld and weld area appear rusty. It will turn "rusty looking" overnight. It happens fast. Not what you what on food service equipment. I've seen many "textbook" welds ruined by the use of the wrong brush.

P.S.- Anyone thats thinking about learning how to TIG weld should start out using heavier gauge metal than the 20ga. that maple equipment is made of. Find some thicker scrap stainless somewhere and ruin,...um, I mean, weld that first. Good luck.

Steve

Fred Henderson
01-05-2010, 06:10 PM
I was/am a welded, (retired now). When welding thin stainless it is best to have a thumb wheel on the tig torch so after you get started you can trun the heat back as the base metal heats up. When sharpening the tungsten it is best to put it in a cordless drill to turn it uniformly on the grinding wheel. Argon is a good gas to use but it sure leaves a strange taste in your mouth after welding all day with it. It is also equally important to be comfortable while welding any type of metal.

Dennis H.
01-05-2010, 07:22 PM
You can run straight Argon? Is that the same for MIG welding.

I don't have a TIG and I don't foresee ever getting one, so I will have to make do with my MIG.

I read that on a MIG you must use a TRI-mix? Is this correct or can I use argon also?

Sugarmaker
01-05-2010, 07:53 PM
Three Maples,
Good description of the TIG basics. Thanks a lot for sharing this. Hats off to those that make a living at welding. I know just enough to be dangerous.
I am in huge project that needs this type of welding and and have a ways to go to be ready to complete it myself.

1. Can a butt joint be made between two pieces of 20 gage?

2. Where can I buy 1/8 inch copper strips for heat sinks?

3. Like Dennis H, I was considering possibly using MIG with gas. Comments?

4.Are you guys looking over my shoulder?:)

Regards,
Chris

Fred Henderson
01-05-2010, 08:04 PM
Butt joints are the only way to, you don't have to use any filler rod.

You can use Argon for either mig or tig or you can use tri mix or sometimes called star gas.

I am not watching you, I don't have my sheild.

Sugarmaker
01-05-2010, 08:10 PM
Fred,
You left me hanging.
(Speaking of which where is old "hanging" miss his posts. Well that's another topic.)

back to Fred,
Butt joints are the only way to.............??????????

GO or make a pile of crap happen real quick?

Folks, Grab a hood if you are going to follow Fred in this thread!

Chris

smitty76
01-05-2010, 09:01 PM
WoW, a whole lot being said here. I am a welder by trade and there has been alot of thing said here that are mostly true. buckethead is right about the stainless brushes(this is important). Fred talked of a thumb wheel. that controls the amperage of the torch(same as a foot pedal). that is why I love tig, you control the heat and the rod seperatly. Dennis, you can run argon for both. Sugarmaker, we are looking over your shoulder. mig like all types of welding has its strong pionts, but that is not for thin metals. not saying it can't be done, just that it is a diffecalt process. 1/8 copper sheets can be found at some hardware stores but copper is not nessesary. aluminum will work as good. do not use steel because you may end up welding it to the stainless and yes a butt weld can be made. the way to do that is to have a backer on the other side of the joint that you are welding. If the joint is tight and you are well practiced, you do not need filler rod.

Good luck Chris

Haynes Forest Products
01-05-2010, 10:38 PM
Almost ran over a box in the road today and as I went buy I saw the familier metal spool with SHINY .045 flux core wire ..........full roll But its for a linclon and I have I have a Miller and Hobart and gas tanks for both.....Now What?

KenWP
01-05-2010, 11:26 PM
This is the first time I knew that you could not use other wires in another brand of welder. I have always just picked up a roll where ever I could find it. I found out how hard it is to weld 20 gauge steel real quick this week. I will probbably end up with a mess or soldering it as I can't get the heat low enough with my stick welder to not blow holes in the metal.

Haynes Forest Products
01-06-2010, 01:30 AM
The spool looks differant....will look closer. I dont like flux core and dont do much outside windy work.

smitty76
01-06-2010, 06:14 AM
first time i've heard of it as well KenWP

Gary R
01-06-2010, 07:33 AM
Chris,

As you know, I am not a welder:) . When you visited a few weeks ago, almost all the welding I did on my pans. I used a 120V MIG with 90/10 gas. I did not use heat sinks or backing. I should have. I have been told by my professional friend that I should have used Tri-mix. The gas is expensive and not that easy to get for the backyarder.

A question for you welders. Can you use Tri-mix on regular steel? If so, I would take my bottle to the supplier/owner and trade it for a Tri-mix bottle. I do very little welding. But if I need to weld some stainless I'll have the right gas.

Jim Schumacher
01-06-2010, 07:55 AM
If it is possible to mig weld on 20 gauge stainless then what would be the benefit of tig welding instead?

smitty76
01-06-2010, 08:54 AM
welding is like anything else, you ask 50 guys and get 50 ways to do it. I am not saying that any of these ways is wrong. for some it is preffernce, so the tools or know how. I am lucky enough to work in a place that has all the cool tools and the special ones. I prefer tig because i am comfortible with it, have access to it and is a more percise and prettier looking weld joint. whatever you have that works for you is perfect for you and go with it.

Gary, i also us 90/10 on stainless mig and by the sounds of how much you weld, I would us the 90/10 on everything.



Smitty

Big_Eddy
01-06-2010, 09:00 AM
Jim - It is possible to MIG weld 20 gauge stainless steel. It's not easy, it isn't going to work well for an amateur with a basic 110V welder, and it probably isn't going to look pretty.

TIG welding (GTAW) is the preferred method for sanitary work on thin stainless.

But just like when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, if the only welder you have is a MIG, you can get by welding thin stainless with it. Same cautions - good cleanliness, PERFECT fitup, good heatsinking, proper settings. Stainless wire, Tri-Mix gas. With MIG - you will need to travel fast, jump around, and try as best you can to avoid getting too much heat into the workpiece. Short stitch welds, not long continous fillets.

There is a ton more to the subject of welding thin stainless. Three Maples did not mention back gassing and sugaring (Not maple sugar!!) Anyone who is planning to weld stainless would be well served researching those topics on a welding discussion board (millerwelds.com, hobartwelders.com/mboard )

Keyes Hollow Gold
01-06-2010, 10:32 AM
You left out a very important part, both on the prep side and cleaning up the weld after putting it down.

Never, ever, use a basic steel bristled wire brush! Always use a stainless steel-wired wire brush on stainless steel. The regular steel brush leaves minute particals of steel behind and they rust. It will make the weld and weld area appear rusty. It will turn "rusty looking" overnight. It happens fast. Not what you what on food service equipment. I've seen many "textbook" welds ruined by the use of the wrong brush.

P.S.- Anyone thats thinking about learning how to TIG weld should start out using heavier gauge metal than the 20ga. that maple equipment is made of. Find some thicker scrap stainless somewhere and ruin,...um, I mean, weld that first. Good luck.

Steve



Do they make Stainless Steel wire brushes for power drills?

KenWP
01-06-2010, 10:42 AM
Yes they do just have your pocket book ready. Dremel has lots of them listed a lot of the web sites are to big for me to open in any reasonable length of time.

Sugarmaker
01-06-2010, 08:46 PM
Smitty,
Thanks for the info. I will learn some things from you welding experts! Just like making syrup.
OK another question which was really my first joint question but I ask it wrong. How about a "T" joint weld where one sheet is to be joined at a 90 degrees to an other panel but not at a corner? Like where my Vee shaped panel comes against my vertical end panels?

Chris

smitty76
01-06-2010, 09:24 PM
it is no different than a corner. it will be no prob. "t" joints are easyer than butt joint to not burn thru. keep in mind that t joints pull the metal alot more than butt joints so chris be sure to tack all the vees in a few places all the way across the end plate before you weld them up tite. the best backer for a 90 deg corner is a piece of angle iron.


Chris, are you going to the conference this weekend, if so look for me(nametag smitty76) and we can talk in more detail about this.



Smitty

Three Maples
01-07-2010, 07:14 AM
To buy copper try ebay there is lots of choices for not to much money.

Sugarmaker
01-07-2010, 06:53 PM
Smitty,
Not planning to go to the conference:( Have a great time. Thanks for the welding advice.
Three Maples, I will check on line for heat sink materials too.

Regards,
Chris

Three Maples
01-08-2010, 07:16 AM
So what is your point?

Sorry you are having difficulty understanding the concept of this article I do not always explain myself as well as I would like. I sent this into the forum of knowledge sharing for two main points. 1 that TiG is a lot of little things that add up and 2 the use of creative heat sinks. Hope that helps.

Jim Schumacher
01-08-2010, 07:58 PM
I was waiting for that... I found the original post VERY informative and well written. Lets keep this going but lets keep it clean:)

Sugarmaker
01-09-2010, 08:01 PM
Yes found it very informative! Thanks for posting the original thread.
Regards,
Chris

KenWP
01-09-2010, 11:07 PM
I have a really nice piece of aluminuim that would work as a heat sink. believe it or not it's a 2 inch square peice 6 inchs long that they used as a buisness card at one time up here for Alcan. I take it you never carried around a pocket full of them to give out. Cost me 50 cents at a garage sale.
I have been useing a copper cake plate as a heat sink seems to work fine. I had to weld up some SS tubeing and found a piece of aluminium tubeing slipped inside worked well as a heat sink for that. The first weld I did the tube got red hot but after I used the tubeing the rest of the welds stayed cooler.

Jim Schumacher
04-26-2010, 10:52 PM
I have been doing a lot of practice tig welding 26 ga stainless the last few nights. I have the laps and corners down pretty well. When I tig weld the butt joints I can't get it to stay flat on my aluminum heat sink undernieth. As I move the torch along, the joint becomes the bottom of a v-shape. I agree, no filler is needed, just having a hard time keeping it flat. Help?

Jim

WF MASON
04-27-2010, 04:58 AM
What exactly would you be using 26ga. for ?

Jim Schumacher
04-27-2010, 07:54 AM
A hood, Stacks, Floats, ect.

TF Maple
04-27-2010, 10:03 AM
Is there any reason no one is using acetylene and oxygen torches for this kind of welding? My son-in-law just bought a setup and it came with some stainless steel rods, so he said I could use it if I wanted for the pan I want to build. I would think it would be easier to weld thin metal compared to using an arc of any kind. Thanks for any info.

Haynes Forest Products
04-27-2010, 10:25 AM
Are you sure the rods are not Nickel?

TF Maple
04-27-2010, 06:45 PM
I haven't seen them yet so I don't know if they are nickel or SS. Guess I will have to check on that. So gas welding stainless can't be done??

Bucket Head
04-27-2010, 11:14 PM
Gas welding thin metal is'nt a good idea. Too much heat distorts the piece and discolors it too. You end up putting too much heat into thin stuff to get the puddle going. That might not be an issue on the neighbor kids bicycle chain guard, but it would be pretty unsightly on an evaporator.

TIG welding is the way to go on stainless. MIG welding can be done(like my pans) but it does'nt look as nice as a TIG bead. However, the sap won't be able to tell which process was used, lol.

Steve

Jim Schumacher
04-27-2010, 11:19 PM
I have been doing a lot of practice tig welding 26 ga stainless the last few nights. I have the laps and corners down pretty well. When I tig weld the butt joints I can't get it to stay flat on my aluminum heat sink undernieth. As I move the torch along, the joint becomes the bottom of a v-shape. I agree, no filler is needed, just having a hard time keeping it flat. Help?

Jim

Bucket Head
04-28-2010, 09:49 PM
Can you clamp the piece to the heatsink? You have to figure out a way to keep the piece flat because the heat warps thin metal.

Vise Grip makes many different style clamps. I have also used "Pony" clamps. Their the hand sqeezed to open style- I know Home Depot has them. Just take the rubber ends off. You don't want the melted/burned rubber on your syrup making equipment.

Steve

Jim Schumacher
04-28-2010, 11:17 PM
I did clamp a sink parallel to the seem on one peice of the metal, but if i do both I can't get my torch in there.

Sugarmaker
05-01-2010, 09:21 AM
Guys,
As I finish my WRU (see other thread) project I have Used MIG, Lead free solder, Pop rivets and had some TIG work done too.
If I had it to do again I would probably invest in a good TIG welder. Practice a lot and end up with a prettier job.


Your comments about welding in this thread helped a lot!

Regards,
Chris

holey_bucket
01-26-2011, 10:26 PM
I have been doing a lot of practice tig welding 26 ga stainless the last few nights. I have the laps and corners down pretty well. When I tig weld the butt joints I can't get it to stay flat on my aluminum heat sink undernieth. As I move the torch along, the joint becomes the bottom of a v-shape. I agree, no filler is needed, just having a hard time keeping it flat. Help?

Jim

Jim,
Did you find a solution to this problem?

Jim Schumacher
01-31-2011, 11:38 PM
Jim,
Did you find a solution to this problem?

Mark, the material will always curl up. The problem with the 26 ga but joint is the material is too flimsy to control with the heat sinks a reasonable distance apart. If you move them to a point where they are well supported there is simply no room for your torch/tungsten. This is a very unlikely weld to ever have to execute. At the time I had been practicing on this this stuff just to make the 20ga and 22ga material seem easy. It worked. I made a lot of changes since then and it gets easier every day. One big change was in the type of tungsten. I switched from 2% thoriated to ceriated. It will give you cancer at a much slower rate, which is great, but it also stays much more rigid when things get a little hotter then you planned for when you inserted a .040 electrode. I recommend this to anyone. Much less dipping, much less grinding.