Check Valves

[backyardsugarer]

Where are these leader check valves for sale? I have read the research on them and I am going for it if I can find them. They are not on the leader website.

Chris

[danno]

Hi Chris -

Sandy has them down at Countryside Hardware in Deruyter if you want to take the ride - or she'll ship them to you.

[lpakiz]

I just got a bunch from Sugerbush Supplies in Michigan. You can just Google them and get a phone number. Shipping was $10 for 300 of them.

[3rdgen.maple]

Bascom's told me they have 100,000 of them in stock but just not on their website either.

[mountainvan]

I picked up 4 at bascoms yesterday. I'm going to compare them, new plastic, old plastic ( two years), and the antimicrobial this year. See who's still flowing toward the end of the season.

[backyardsugarer]

I am curious aout the 50% increase in production. The research looks good and the science makes sense. I have seen tap holes on older tubing on vac dry up after 4 weeks. How much do they cost each?

[Snow Hill Farm]

I just paid 31.5 cents each through a Leader dealer

[KenWP]

Seems D&G do not carry them. Finally got to them today. I think they would be great if you could find them. Tried CDL also and no response. I got no response from the other L company either. Sort of a pain when nobody will sell them to you.

[caseyssugarshack93]

Leader Has the Argeenment on the Cv Adapotor,= you can only get them though a leader Dealer/ or Rep from what im aware of, Uvm and leader did a legal agreement on the Cv adportor im pretty sure but not 100%

[DrTimPerkins]

I picked up 4 at bascoms yesterday. I'm going to compare them, new plastic, old plastic ( two years), and the antimicrobial this year. See who's still flowing toward the end of the season.

CV and silver are different technology to try to do the same thing. We've done a lot of testing of the CV spouts (and will be doing more this year), and also quite a lot with silver-containing spouts and dropline. The paper on CV spouts has been published in the Oct 2009 Maple Digest. The paper on the antimicrobial silver in maple sap collection is coming out in the next (March 2010?) Maple Digest.

In brief, the silver worked to some degree the first year, but the effectiveness was gone by the second year.

[ejmaple]

will the cv spouts only work with vac?

[DrTimPerkins]

will the cv spouts only work with vac?

They were designed for, intended for, and tested with vacuum tubing systems. At UVM PMRC we did not test them under gravity tubing situations.

Cornell (Steve Childs) tested a different variety of CV on a gravity tubing system and found they improved production there as well.

[dano2840]

are the cv spouts designed to be used year after year or are they another throw away type spout?

[caseyssugarshack93]

throw away dan, Use a new one each season,

[DrTimPerkins]

are the cv spouts designed to be used year after year or are they another throw away type spout?

They are a single-season use adapter that is used with a stubby-spout. Replacing spouts or using spout adapters increase annual sap yield by about 10-15% (in vacuum tubing systems).

[Randy Brutkoski]

Tim, I just bought 2500 cv spouts for 1 of my sugarbushes. But the other one i am not sure about. I am almost done with a new bush with all new tubing, mains , everything is new. 4500 taps that are all on vac. I also have stubies too. I heard you say that the first year tubing setup cv spouts wouldnt help much. Should i go with the 15 cent spout or the 35 cent cv spout? thanks randy

[3rdgen.maple]

Ken are you trying to use some on buckets or are you going to run some tubing?

[DrTimPerkins]

Tim, I just bought 2500 cv spouts for 1 of my sugarbushes. But the other one i am not sure about. I am almost done with a new bush with all new tubing, mains , everything is new. 4500 taps that are all on vac. I also have stubies too. I heard you say that the first year tubing setup cv spouts wouldnt help much. Should i go with the 15 cent spout or the 35 cent cv spout? thanks randy

Realistically, the CV spout was made to reduce microbial contamination of the taphole from sap backflushing from contaminated tubing. If your tubing is brand-new, it isn't contaminated, and the CV spout will not help very much (there is another way it could help a little). After the tubing has been used, even for a single-season, the CV spout will help. The amount is likely to be proportional to how old and contaminated your tubing lines (laterals and drops) are.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Dr. Perkins,

Don't you have about the greatest job in the world????

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Perkins,

Don't you have about the greatest job in the world????

There are many enjoyable aspects. It is a terrific field of study, with a lot of wonderful people who have lots of ideas and ways of doing things. If it weren't for having to find research funding and doing all the administrative stuff, it would be the perfect job. One draw-back is that the season is so short we just don't have the time to do all the interesting things we can think of....so we have to pick our projects very carefully.

[dano2840]

so how much are these check vavles i heard like 39 cents a pop is that correct?

[ennismaple]

I believe that's correct, give or take a few pennies. For it to pay for itself you need to make another 43mL (1.45 oz) of syrup (assuming syrup at $3.00/lb). This equates to about 1.7 L (1.8 quarts) of extra sap. Of course, this ignores the cost of boiling the sap into syrup so you could conservatively say if you get an extra gallon of sap per tap it's cost effective.

[caseyssugarshack93]

the CV is .35 and the stubby spout is .29

[KenWP]

You have to remember they are 39 cents a piece but from that you have to take the price of a normal adapter which is what 22cents so 17 cents differenence. So they are not all that much money and will pay for them selves pretty quick.

[caseyssugarshack93]

There .35 Right in the leader book and .29 for the stubby =for the CV or just a regular adaptor

[Randy Brutkoski]

I got a call from leader today and surprise, another problem with the cv spout. A big syrup maker in vermont started tapping this week and he is using the cv spout. He has to start early, 70,000 taps. Anyway, when he put the spout in the tree a large percent of them shattered. Supposedly the spout didnt have enough moisture in the dye or something. So leader told me to put 1/3 of an ounce of water in with 1 bag of 100 spouts and seal each bag. That will be alot of fun since i have 5000 of them. That is 2 problems just since the summer. I think it should have been tested for another year instead of rushing it. They are selling millions of these things. I just hope they can work out the bugs this year because it is really a good idea.

[KenWP]

Dump them all into a bucket and fill with water and a bit of disenfectant and let them soak. That and I thought that you were supposed to push adapters into trees not hammer.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

Randy-Is everybody supposed to put the water in the bag of CV adapters or was it just certain batches. I am going to be using 4000 or 5000 of them too and it sure would be a lot of work, not knowing for sure if tht will even cure the problem.

[maplwrks]

Sounds to me like Leader used the wrong plastic composition. Kind of hard to do much testing when you're cramming them out on the market!! Isn't it nice to know that after you spend all that money for them, that you are the one doing some of the R&D on them?? Just another Leader blunder in my opinion.

[Dave Y]

That is why I am waiting to see how they perform.

[DrTimPerkins]

I got a call from leader today and surprise, another problem with the cv spout. A big syrup maker in vermont started tapping this week and he is using the cv spout. He has to start early, 70,000 taps. Anyway, when he put the spout in the tree a large percent of them shattered. Supposedly the spout didnt have enough moisture in the dye or something. So leader told me to put 1/3 of an ounce of water in with 1 bag of 100 spouts and seal each bag. That will be alot of fun since i have 5000 of them. That is 2 problems just since the summer. I think it should have been tested for another year instead of rushing it. They are selling millions of these things. I just hope they can work out the bugs this year because it is really a good idea.

This stems from a known issue with using ANY food-grade nylon type of spout or fittings before they cure. Most spouts sit around for weeks to months before being sold. During that time, they take up a little moisture from the air and cure (actually they soften a bit in curing). Without the moisture they are somewhat brittle and can break if you pound them real hard. The issue arises because in order to fill the backorders the CV spouts are being made and shipped immediately to the end user....some of whom try to put them in the tree immediately. Since they're in a sealed bag, they can't cure properly (or very slowly). My understanding is that all new shipments are having the water put into the bag at the factory after being manufactured. Those that were shipped out already need to be cured. If you have some time (a couple of weeks) before you're tapping, just open the bag to let air in. As long as you're not storing them outside (lower temperature, lower humidity) or storing them right next to your woodstove, they'll cure fine upon exposure to the humidity in the air. If you want to be absolutely sure, put a little water in the bag.

We had the same issue last year when we tested them at UVM PMRC. We got them directly from the factory hot off the mold and tried putting them in the tree the day after they were made. We had about 5-10% breakage (not a large percent as stated above, but enough to concern us). After curing we didn't have any problems at all.

[Snow Hill Farm]

I'll be opening all my bags of adaptors tonight then, not a huge inconvenience and a timely tip! As far as cost goes, they are 0.35 if you buy direct from Leader, if you use a dealer most will give you 10% off so they are only 31.5 cents each, that's what I paid last week.

[jdj]

It sure would be nice if they(Leader) would tell you these little things, (like make sure the CV's cure before use), when you buy the CV. Especially since Dr. Perkins noted that the CV breaking during testing was an issue. I have 4500 CV's and I am now going to open up all the bags and hopefully they will be fine once tapping starts here.

I am seriously starting to get my doubts about "how great these CV's are". Time will tell, I guess?????

[mountainvan]

If I had 5%-1o% of my syrup being "faulty" I'd be out of business. Imagine buying a new car and being told it needed to cure a couple weeks before being driven. Bad example. Ok new baby bed, nope not a good example. painted toy from china..... Once again consumer beware!

[Mark]

I have 15,000 0f them still in the box , that will be fun opening all the bags.

[maplwrks]

The problem with them is they have orders to fill, and they are still working the bugs out of them. If more R&D had been done, all the problems would have been worked out and production would have happened timely and this problem wouldn't be happening. Leader loves to have their producers be the guinea pigs for them, always have and always will.

[DrTimPerkins]

It sure would be nice if they(Leader) would tell you these little things, (like make sure the CV's cure before use), when you buy the CV.

Which is exactly what they are now doing for those that have already been shipped. For those being shipped from now on, they'll already be cured by the time you get them.

[DrTimPerkins]

The problem with them is they have orders to fill, and they are still working the bugs out of them. If more R&D had been done, all the problems would have been worked out and production would have happened timely and this problem wouldn't be happening.

There was no more R&D that needed to be done. In fact, I'd say that this particular product had FAR more testing than many new products that have been sold in the maple industry in the past 15 years. The only issue that slowed production was finding a supplier that could provide a high quantity of balls that met the required specifications. Curing of injection molded parts is not an unknown issue, but the high demand for this spout just made it more likely that they'd go directly from the manufacturer to the producer without there being sufficient cure time for the small percentage of producers who are already tapping.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

Does the tubing such as 30-P need to cure as well? I had probably 60 or so connections of 30-P that I put up early in the summer split off of the tee when I installed drop lines. I didn't heat it up and used a tubing tool for installation. I wonder if the tubing wasn't fully cured?

[mapleack]

I'd send some of that split 30p back to leader to find out what's wrong with it. They may not have had enough UV stabilizer in it, if its cracking like that.

[DrTimPerkins]

If I had 5%-1o% of my syrup being "faulty" I'd be out of business. Imagine buying a new car and being told it needed to cure a couple weeks before being driven.

That is an unfair characterization. They are not faulty, just not cured, and the solution is pretty darn simple....wait a few days with the bags open or put a little water in the bag and seal it for a day.

Come to think of it....don't many automakers tell you not to drive your new car for long stretches at one speed (doing so is bad for the transmission) for the first several thousand miles, or that you need to change the oil after the first 1,000 miles (or harm the engine), or that you shouldn't wax it for the first several months (or you destroy the finish). Going by your definition every car that was ever sold, even those coming out now, would be faulty....and cars have been sold for what...100 years...and you spend $20-50k for your car and still have those "faults".

Again, the CV spout had more R&D (over 2 yrs) than many other products in the maple industry. Wouldn't be hard for me to come up with a list of things being sold that had never touched sap before coming out in a catalog.

[DrTimPerkins]

Does the tubing such as 30-P need to cure as well?

Most plastics, including polyethylene (what most maple tubing is made of), requires some amount of curing, but it is typically quite short. I'd call Leader Evaporator Co. and discuss it with them. Probably require them hearing more details from you to deduce what happened.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

I cut several sections of the 30-P out and gave to my dealer along with several of the t's. He sent them to leader and they measured the fittings and said the dimensions are ok. They were going to send it out to a lab to analize the plastic but I haven't heard back yet.

[mountainvan]

sorry, not "faulty", but selling a product with breakage of 5-10% rate when not cured properly, and then telling the consumer after the fact, is wrong. At least the car companies tell you to take it easy for awhile. Then to tell the customer that they need to fix it. Maybe we should make our syrup to 60% sugar and tell the consumer how easy it is to get it up to 66%. There's always an easy fix for someone else to do when a mistake is made. and I have nothing to do with the antimicrobial spile. I think it's a cool idea, and if it works great. If they break when tapped with a hammer, I'll stand up for consumer rights with that one too.

[markcasper]

Wow, no need to watch Days of our Lives today! Checkvalves in our Lives!

[DrTimPerkins]

Posted today:

I have nothing to do with the antimicrobial spile. I think it's a cool idea, and if it works great.

Posted months ago:

Talked to a friend who has developed a new spile that may make the yearly adaptors obsolete, including the new leader adaptor. Look for the product to come out this summer from Maple Innovations.


Maple innovations is a New york maple producer teamed up with a nanotechnology company. The new spile has patents in the USA and Canada and approval from the fda and epa. You all know how I ream my holes out every year, with this spile I won't have to. Plus it should last for years not one season. I will say I'm biased because the producer who came up with the concept is my friend and I'd like to see him do well with it.

Glad you're not biased in any way and just standing up for consumers rights. We wouldn't want any products out there that haven't had sufficient (or any) R&D now would we?

Apologies for the drama folks....if anyone has real questions or concerns....I'll answer them...straight up, no B.S. Headed to Verona shortly....so no more responses for now.

[jdj]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdj
It sure would be nice if they(Leader) would tell you these little things, (like make sure the CV's cure before use), when you buy the CV.



Which is exactly what they are now doing for those that have already been shipped. For those being shipped from now on, they'll already be cured by the time you get them.


Well I've had 4500 of the CV's since October and NOBODY from Leader has contacted me to tell me they "had to be cured by opening the bag". If it weren't for this site I'd have no idea there is an issue with the CV's needing to be "cured"!

[KenWP]

Seems to me R&D is not the problem. Just trying to fill orders for guys in a hurry. You have to take the spouts out of the bag some time so why not early and let them cure. Cars off the assembly line have to cure also. They stink when they are first built untill the rubbers and all cure. My misses worked for 17 years makeing the mouilding on the doors for cars. You can't paint something and use it right away most times either.
These spouts were tested and found to work. Also it has been mentioned earlier that the seasons only a few weeks long so you can only test for that long. And as said all the other spouts have to cure also and most probbably get maybe a year to do so before use but these had to be made and put out for use rather quick. Makes sense to put water on them and go from there.

[jdj]

Makes sense to put water on them and go from there.

KenWP if you are bored I have 4500 of them you can water down:lol:

[Asian Long Horned Beetle]

When I went to Bascoms today, Liz told me to add water as a precaution, although they are probably already cured. I'm sure leader has informed all the dealers and distributors about this, who will in return tell all of the maple producers. It was a small problem from the get go, but I am really looking forward to using them. I bought 600 of them, there are usually small glitches in every product that comes out. Dr. Perkins has given us a great deal of information on not only the CV spouts, but everything to do with sugaring. Mountian Van to bash his product is BS, as Dr. Perkins is just trying to help those in the industry succeed. Bascoms has the smart spout from Maple Innovations for 98 cents, and their website has been under construction for the last year. How much longer will the season last with the smart spout? How much more sap will I get vs the CV. How long will the spout last before needing replacement. Dr. Perkins gave us all the information any of us requested or asked. Just because the plastic wasn't cured, a number of people want to bash the product. If the smart spout had the same issue, I don't think Dr. Perkins would criticize it. I would like to use the smart spout for my gravity tubing but its expensive and also I don't have any idea how much I will gain from it. Keep up the good work Tim most of us are excited about your new product and are looking forward to reaping the benefits.
P.S. my cousin who plays college football just tried to break it and was unable. Looks pretty sturdy to me.

[KenWP]

KenWP if you are bored I have 4500 of them you can water down:lol:

I spent my life doing worse things. Send them over. Thats only 45 bags of 100. I love to do weird little jobs like that.

[mountainvan]

I've been schooled from the ivory tower. fact still remains that leader sent out the product before it was cured and caused at least one producer to have a bad day. did they reimburse the producer for the product? did they say sorry for the problem? sometimes a simple sorry for causing you problems is all it takes. So I say sorry for causing any problems. I bought some in bascoms on monday of this week and was not told anything about adding water or a problem with them breaking when not fully cured. is it their fault? nope. leaders fault? probably. uvm's fault? if they knew there was a possible problem and did not tell leader, then yes. If they told leader and they still send them out,well you can make up your own mind. personally I'm tired of buying things that are defective and the company not taking responsibility for it.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im Darn tired of buying faulty product too.Now is it faulty or is there a manf glith that is being addressed? So when I got 6 rolls of ridged tubing all strung in the woods and a month later it was pulled from the tees. I called Roth and got a call from Garth sent out all new tubing and I kept the rest. COOL life goes on. Do companys make a product that fails yes its what they do after the sale that counts. Sounds like Leader is dealing with the Miss step I dont see and conspiracy here. I bet all the people compaining about being a Guinea pig will eat every sample that is offerd at Costco on a friday.:lol:

[Gary R]

Mountainvan, I do not understand how you could suggest that UVM is the problem. If this is a curing issue, it is the manufacture's problem and to some extent Leader. The manufacture is the one that should know and inform Leader that they need to be cured. I would imagine that if you wanted cured replacements, you'd be waiting until after the season. It is too bad that this has occured. As with most industies communication is poor.

I have not seen one piece of R&D on the smart spout. Yet they are for sale. Thanks for all your work Dr. Perkins.

[maple flats]

MountainVan,
I think you are way too critical. This is a new product in an industry that is growing in huge leaps and bounds. Just growing pains. I bought 600 cv adapters and they have some water in them. It sounds to me like the mfgr is addressing the curing problem. Part of the problem is because we producers push for new innovations as fast as we can get them. We pressure the companies to get them online sooner rather than later. Besides, it sounds to me like the curing "problem" will not exist after a short waiting period (2 wks?). If you don't like to be on the leading edge just wait until every new product has stood the test of time. (oh, I forgot, you already rushed out and bought some) These have shown great inprovements of sap yield and that IS what we all want. We do not want to wait and I don't think you do either. My view is that this has been handled quite well.

[maple flats]

Dr Perkins, keep coming up with new improvements and keep getting them to us as fast as is reasonable. You are providing a great service to the maple industry!
Dave (I really enjoyed and learned a lot in the 2 sessions you did at Verona's conference today, CV adapters and effects of RO.)

[maple flats]

I just paid 31.5 cents each through a Leader dealer Where do you find a dealer who discounts the list price. The 2 I shop regularly charge full list. What sort of quantities are you buying when you get 10% off?
Dave

[DrTimPerkins]

I've been schooled from the ivory tower.

Mountainvan....To make this simple, I am sorry you are dissatisfied with the product. Please return it to Bascom's and I'm sure they'll be happy to refund your money. If not, you are welcome to mail any CV spouts you purchased to me and I will send you a personal check for what you paid for them.

As far as the ivory tower goes, you obviously do not know me. I grew up in a family of 8 kids, farming and sugaring a good part of the time on my grandfather's farm. I'm not from a family of privilege or money....my dad worked for the state highway dept most of his life. I paid every cent of my own way through college. I studied and worked very hard to get where I am. On top of our regular jobs, my wife and I each volunteer 10-20 hrs a week (every week) for children's educational programs because we think it's important that kids have good opportunities. Altogether, we lead pretty simple lives. I don't drive a luxury car....I have a 2002 Toyota Tacoma...doesn't even have air-conditioning. Not because I can't afford it....but because I don't need a fancy car to be happy.

So no....you won't find a lot of ivory at the UVM Proctor Center, and the only tower we have is one that goes up into the forest canopy so we can get to the tops of the trees to take measurements.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

This is getting ridiculous!! Some of you guys acted more like spoiled rotten kids that mature adult syrup producers. This attacking Dr. Perkins is simply ridiculous. He spends tons of time working and probably way more hours than he gets paid for and with his degree and knowledge could be making a lot more money other places. Nothing against Mike or anyone else on here, but some of you are like a pack of blood thirsty lions when it comes to Leader and anyone associated with it and just waiting to draw blood. We should be in this industry to help each other out and if these adapters are a bust, then no one is going to be out of any money. It is more than likely that they will at least produce enough syrup to pay for themselves. If they turn out to be as good or better than advertised, then it will be on to attack about something else.

[Whitfield]

I have bought 4000 of these and am looking forward to trying them this year. Based on personal experience I am convinced that replaceable spouts without check valves do yield more sap. Logic (and research) seems to indicate that the check valve should help even more. A question for Dr. Perkins. Given a hypothetical 5 year old tubing system running about 20" of vacuum that has been cleaned anually what would be your prediction of the % yield improvement going from regular 5 year old health spiles, to the removable spile type design, and secondly to the CV design removable spile tip? I understand there are probably a lot variables and it is going to depend on the length of the season, etc., but I would appreciate your estimate. I may have to purchase some additional drums.

Incidently my dealer located in Canada sent me an email yesterday advising of the curing issue and the solution. It seems that Leader is attempting to be proactive in dealing with this issue.

[DrTimPerkins]

Given a hypothetical 5 year old tubing system running about 20" of vacuum that has been cleaned anually what would be your prediction of the % yield improvement going from regular 5 year old health spiles, to the removable spile type design, and secondly to the CV design removable spile tip?

<snip>

Incidently my dealer located in Canada sent me an email yesterday advising of the curing issue and the solution. It seems that Leader is attempting to be proactive in dealing with this issue.

As you say, there are a large number of variables, and each season is different. Our research on switching to annually replaceable spout adapters indicates an improvement of 10-15% on a 3-4 yr old tubing system, perhaps a bit better on an older system. Keep in mind that some seasons end abruptly (get hot and stay hot), and having a new spout adapter, new dropline, or even having CV adapters may not help much under those circumstances. As for sap yield improvement with CV use, we saw ~25% increase on a 2 yr old system, and ~50-90% increase on a 6 yr old system. You should read http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/check-valve.pdf to be sure you understand all the details related to that.

[PATheron]

Dr. Perkins- Do you guys think that you have much backflow on gravity tubing without vac or is it mainly a problem with vac systems. Theron

[ABS5405]

I like to put all our nylon spouts in a bucket of water for a day or longer before we tap, don't break as easy then. Plastic absorbs a little moisture, they aren't as brittle any more. Also not store them where it's hot dry. My freind told me this, he molds them.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Perkins- Do you guys think that you have much backflow on gravity tubing without vac or is it mainly a problem with vac systems. Theron

It is a larger problem with vacuum than with gravity, but backflow can occur under gravity during the freeze cycle. The tree can't pull sap from as far though (meaning that the dropline is doing what it was designed to do) under gravity. That is why changing your spouts and drops gets excellent results under gravity, but much less effect on vacuum (although still helpful). Under vacuum, eventually during a run you get vacuum inside the tree, which can pull a lot more sap a lot further (through the drop and even from the lateral line).

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dr Perkins you made mention about the drop line doing its job and Maple Ridge asked a question about the best placement of the drop line UP, DOWN, SIDEWAYS? I try to get the drop line pointed down so the sap doesn't sit in the tap or the hole. Because of the bark on the bigger trees Im forced to turn them at the 8-9 oclock position so the barb fitting doesnt get bent or broken during install. I like long drop lines so I can get to all sides of the tree without having to spin the tree in the ground:lol: So tap higher than the latteral T and higher than the latteral line small 1/2 loop at bottom???

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Perkins you made mention about the drop line doing its job and Maple Ridge asked a question about the best placement of the drop line UP, DOWN, SIDEWAYS?

Drop lines, as the name implies, should go down to the fitting. It is OK if they go sideways to get there, as long as they are continuously down. You shouldn't tap below the fitting, or allow the drop line to droop down and then back up. Once continuous downhill sweep is best, but it needn't be straight down. Having drop lines long enough to reach all around the tapping band is best.

[red maples]

just got the new bascom's catalog yesterday nice words and info written about the new check valves congrats to Dr. Perkins hope you make your $$$millions on them!!!;)

I'll probably be switching mine over next year too!!!

[Homestead Maple]

Drop lines, as the name implies, should go down to the fitting. It is OK if they go sideways to get there, as long as they are continuously down. You shouldn't tap below the fitting, or allow the drop line to droop down and then back up. Once continuous downhill sweep is best, but it needn't be straight down. Having drop lines long enough to reach all around the tapping band is best.
That's good info to know. Some people teach that the drop line has to be straight down which in some cases is near impossible to move the tap around from year to year to make this possible. I always tried to just make sure the the drop didn't droop below the lateral, hoping that would be ok, so that no sap would collect in the drop. I use a 32' drop, up to 48" on some larger trees because with only two taps to a tree it has to reach way around, so getting that straight down, doesn't always work.

[sapmaple]

one problem with long drop lines is trying to tap close to the "T" area without the line drooping what I have done is put a couple of circular twists in the drop line ( without kinking it) to get at that part of the tapping band and the line stays above the lateral line you may have to install the spout so the outlet is coming out at a right angle or just under to keep sap headed downhill to the tank:)

[maplemaple2020]

i got andersons new catoluge and it had the check vales $35 for 100:D

[Brent]

My dealer warned me that they are pumping out the check valves so fast they don't cure properly and suggested I throw a bit of water in each bag for a day or so to help the process. It is supposed to take the brittleness out of them.

If you've ever been in a big plastic injection molding shop, you'd have to think there's something to this idea. Injection molding shops I've been in are always very high humidity and there seems to be lots of water around.

You heard anything along this line Tim ??

[DrTimPerkins]

My dealer warned me that they are pumping out the check valves so fast they don't cure properly and suggested I throw a bit of water in each bag for a day or so to help the process. It is supposed to take the brittleness out of them.

You heard anything along this line Tim ??

Yes. Basically they're cranking them out and Leader is shipping them out so fast that they may not have enough time to cure before you pound them in the tree. Almost all plastics need to cure by soaking up moisture from the air. This makes the plastic less brittle. To hasten the process, put a couple of tablespoons of clean water in the bag and seal it. Should be just fine in a couple of days. The manufacturer is now doing that for any adapters they're making (since about a week or so ago). If you see drops of water in the bag when you get them....they're already cured. If you want to be absolutely certain.....a little more water won't hurt.

[Dennis H.]

Just wanted to let you all know of something to watch out for when installing those new check valve spouts.

I tapped all my trees today and I had a ball from one of the CV spouts get sucked out of it and get lodged way down the line at the saddle fitting on the mainline.

I had the vac on while tapping and after setting the CV I went to push on the stubby fitting and it caught on the little plastic thingys that keep the ball from falling out and it caused just enough room for the ball t get sucked out. It made a fairly loud sound as it travel down the lat line. I wasn't sure which fitting it got lodged at, I knew it was somewhere before the 1st tap cause I had no vac at all in that lat.

So just be careful when pushing on the stubby.

[KenWP]

The saga of the CV adapters continues stand by for more. Anybody actually have them working yet.

[DrTimPerkins]

I had the vac on while tapping.

That's interesting....first time I ever heard of anyone tapping with the vacuum on. Does anyone else do that?

I tapped a bunch of CV and normal spouts today (this was for testing purposes....and yes, it's a month or more before "normal" tapping in this area) with the vacuum off and had no problems at all.

[Dennis H.]

why wouldn't you want the vac on while tapping?
I don't think I am lossing all that much vac while I undo the stubby for the T fitting w/plug till I get it on the CV spout.

This is the 1st year with vac so I can be doing something wrong. I just figured that why not pull sap while I was working put in spouts. I figured also it would be an esy way to listen for leaks while walking the lines.

[Brian Ryther]

I tapped with the vac on last year. I felt it was a good way to clear shavings from the hole, better then blowing in the hole, and it also helped me find early leaks.
I am going to tap tomorrow. With vac off. Since changing to stubbies over the past few weeks I am unable to plug the spouts since I left the regular tees in place. I intend to be able to plug the spouts with the check valve adptrs. in the spring.

[DrTimPerkins]

why wouldn't you want the vac on while tapping?

It just isn't anything I have heard of that others do. Interesting.

When you put the stubby on the adapter, did you break the teeth holding the ball in place?

[brookledge]

I have had vacuum for over 20 yrs and I don't tap with the vac on. I have usually let the main line run on the ground while it is being tapped and then after it is tapped I conect it to the vac.
Keith

[Dennis H.]

No It didnt brake any of the teeth. The stubby just flexed a few enough to allow the ball to be sucked out.

It got lodged in the angled fitting on the saddle fitting at the main line. I had to remove the saddle and install a new one. Once I had the saddle with the ball stuck in it in my hand I used a small piece of wire to pop the ball back out. I took the ball and pushed it back into the CV spout.

For what I can see that once te stubby is on the CV there is no way for the little fingers that hold the ball to flex or move to allow the ball to get sucked out. It is just while installing the stubby that you can catch the fingers.

[Dennis H.]

Oh just to let you all know I didn't have a single issue with broken CV spouts.

Now I have had them now for a couple of months so I have to imagine that they have had enough time to propery cure.

[danno]

I also tap with vacuum on - great time to find leaks since you're walking every line. If it's a line that needs alot of attention, I'll mark the area with a piece of loggers tape so I remember the area. Some also say the tap seats better with the vacuum on - don't know about that.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I do itwith the vacuum on. It also allows any snots or crap to fly down the line when you pull it from the T holder. Its a way of getting the junk out as you go and out on the ground. It also lets you keep track of the vacuum. during taping we isolate the section we are doing and that saves time on leaks.

[Sugarmaker]

Dr Tim,
After hearing Brad from Leader talk to our group yesterday. I came to realize that you are the father of this check valve. I am sure that may have been mentioned elsewhere but I probably wasn't paying attention as usual. I think it is neat idea and if it can extend the season it will be well received in the industry.
Congratulations on this design!
Since we run only gravity tubing it will be interesting to see if it can work in that system also.
I did have a question.
If I drill the tap hole at a 10 degree angle sloping upward into the tree, will the check valve be as effective?


Regards,
Chris C.

[DrTimPerkins]

If I drill the tap hole at a 10 degree angle sloping upward into the tree, will the check valve be as effective?

The CV adapter should be tapped exactly the same as any other spout (slight upward angle towards the inside of the tree). It is differential pressure that activates the valve, not gravity.

[Brian Ryther]

I was in my "old sugar bush" today changing out my Health Spouts For stubbies to accept the cv adaptors and I noticed some thing interesting. This Bush is nothing but 3' diameter trees. These trees are older than dirt. I have had this bush for only the past three years. As I was going around to every tree I witinesed the history of past iniovations in spouts. Several of the trees have old spouts ingrown deep into the bark. I saw big U.S. Maple spouts, spouts with vents, Leader 7/16 big blue spouts, Leader health spouts, health spouts with adaptors, and finally I was changing out to stubbies. I did not see any micro spouts or ss spouts but it makes me wonder if when it is my kids turn to tap this bush will CV spouts be old history? O well, I jumped on the band wagon. They make sence to me, just as I am sure that vented taps made sence to producers back when.

[gmcooper]

We started changing out all our health spouts for stubbies and CV. Slower than I thought it would be. Ok my son was changing them out as I worked on add a new section of mainlines. Anyone want a bucket full of used health spouts?

[sapman]

I know what you're saying. Changing takes time. My dad has been doing it for me, and is about 1/4 done with the 1000. What tool are others using for this? So far we've used the 2-handed tool only. I wonder if the 1-hand tool (4791A in Leader's catalog) will do the job?

Tim

[Brian Ryther]

The one handed tool is the only way to go. I was able to cut out and replace about 100/hr.

[maple flats]

I've also been changing all using the 1 handed tool. It does well, and quick.

[gmcooper]

Thanks for the info on the one handed tool. We have been using two handed. I was at Bascoms on Friday and should have grabbed one.

[Russell Lampron]

For just changing the spout I use the one handed tool. I have been replacing the drops in my old section and use the 2 hander for that.

Brian are you changing some drops too? What are you doing if the new stubbies won't fit on the plug on the tee?

[Brian Ryther]

Russ,
I am not changing the drops. I can think of a good way that will remove the drop from the tee without scaring the tee. I don't care how care full you are. The laterals are too tight to remove the whole tee. next option is to replace the whole lateral. Too much time and money. If the CV adptors do what they are designed to do then there should be no need to replace the drop.
As far as the cup tees go, I plan to wash with the vacuum then leave the CV on for the summer and plug that into the cup tee.

[sapmaple]

I'm sorry guys with all due respect "washing" with vacuum is a misnomer If you look up wash in the dic. it involves the use of water in most all cases with vacuum your just trying to get out the remaining fermented sap and thats fine if you choose to do that with the check valve I guess who cares
I just can't put "washing" in the same sentence with vacuum lets call an apple an apple

[Brian Ryther]

Sapmaple,
When you pull your taps from the tree you dunk them in a bucket of water and suck up some water. Therefore Washing with Vacuum.

[JoeJ]

Brian,
I am having a major drop line problem between a fisher cat chewing my drop lines ( only 150 this year, 250 last year) and a lot of the Leader Memory Flex drop line tubing being defective. ( it freely spins on the fittings). About 245 so far out of 700. The last 150 taps that I checked, there was so much split and loose 3 year old 30P tubing and loose drop lines, I just retubed and replace the drop lines on the 150 taps. I have a tubing removal tool that seemed to always score the tees, and I then had to cut the tee out and repalce it. So I tried slicing a small sliver off the tubing at the tee with a sheetrock knife and heating it with a low flame propane torch. A little heat softens the tubing enough to pull it off the tee without hurting the fitting. If I knick the tee with the sheetrock knife blade, I just cut it out and replace the tee. The slicing and heating thing works without damaging the tee 95% of the time.
Also, I don't have much use for the cup tees. They just don't seem to work well. I have replaced all of the cup tees with CDL tees that have the longer spike to push your spout onto ( both the black and blue plugged end spout)
I hope that I have enough time between now and tapping time to replace the other 500 Memory Flex drops before I put on the new stubbies for the Check valve spouts. I used the Lapiere staight clear spouts last year and liekd the results, but I think the check valve spouts are the way to go

[Brian Ryther]

JoeJ,
Is your system on Vacuum? I have also been replacing two year old drop lines on a gravity bush. For this bush I hack and slice the drop lines off of the tees. They seal good enough for gravity with a little nick in the barbs. I used a few rools of the Memory Flex a few yeas ago and didn't that turn out to be junk.

[JoeJ]

Brian,

I have a little over 900 taps on vaccum that I ran at 24.5" last year. So small knicks in the fittings will result in vacuum leaks. On gravity, I guess that the fittings would work fine.

[Russell Lampron]

I replaced the drops with new tees in my woods. Most of the end trees had grown so much since the tubing was installed that they were pulling the tubing off of the tees. I had to splice in some new pieces of tubing to make some of the laterals long enough too. At the same time I rerouted some laterals to cut down on the number of taps on them and added more laterals to pick up new trees and the ones removed from other laterals.

If the weather cooperates I should be able to get the big sap this year. Last years 19.2 gallons of sap per tap was pretty good for mostly red maples. This year should be better with the new drops and CV adapters.

[sapman]

I have the 1-hand tool that does not have the vise grip. You know, the one you open wide, then clamp the tubing in there. Well, I haven't had good luck with it. Tubing always wants to slide, and angles don't work out right. Anyone else use this one and like/dislike? I'll be picking up the other one I was asking about ASAP.

Tim

[Brian Ryther]

I use the self tightening one handed tool for just about everything.

[sapman]

Brian, is it the one that just looks like a retrofitted pair of pliers?

Tim