Galvi vs. poly tanks [Archive]

Bucket Head

12-31-2009, 12:30 PM

I'm not trying to start trouble here, and I've preached stainless or plastic forever, but is there a definate yes or no on the usage of the galv. tanks?

Is their usage some sort of "gray area" in the industry? There are literally thousands of these things in use right now all over the country and I have not heard of anyone being shutdown becuase of them. In recent years I've toured many sugar houses and bushs and have seen them in use in quite a few of them. I'm sure our Dept. of Agrculture & Markets have inspected and/or tested some of their syrup and their still in business.

If they were a definate "no-no", would'nt we be told that. Has anyone been told by an inspector that their galv. tank "had to go"? Obviously you don't want to cook/heat anything in galv., but is cold storage allowed?

Again, I'm not tyring to stir anybody up here. I just would like to know how the inspectors view these tanks? If they were not allowed, half of the producers in this state would be finished right now.

Does anyone have any legal insight on this?

Steve

maplwrks

12-31-2009, 01:14 PM

If you think galvi is illegal--check out the barrel supply at any of the big packers...it will scare you the size of the piles of these barrels.

PerryW

12-31-2009, 02:49 PM

for what it's worth, galvanized tanks will not be allowed if you want your syrup certified organic in Vermont.

KenWP

12-31-2009, 03:04 PM

Up hear the CFIA has inspected and stopped people from useing galv. tanks for syrup. In the my province they only allow plastic or SS for syrup now. Since to sell to the Co-Op you get inspected also you don't have much choice. I have only seen the old galv. syrup pails sold one place and I wouldn't have touched them with a 10 foot pole even for 50 cents as they were so cruddy looking I wouldn't use them for myself let alone anybody else.
I have seen old tin pans for sal at one place here but I have no idea what they actually were as it just said tin and no other explanation.

mountainvan

12-31-2009, 03:06 PM

what of all the galvanized sap buckets? How many thousands or hundred of thousands of them are being used? Do bucket guys buy stainless buckets, or switch all to aluminum? If the industry has to switch we'll need a bailout like GM or Bank of America. I do understand food grade, but the cows drink out of the stock tanks and then we eat the cows. Any toxins become more concentrated as they work there way up the food chain, and brothers we're the top. Unless you live in Grizzly bear country!

DrTimPerkins

12-31-2009, 03:12 PM

Again, I'm not tyring to stir anybody up here. I just would like to know how the inspectors view these tanks? If they were not allowed, half of the producers in this state would be finished right now.

This shouldn't be construed to be a legal opinion in any way, however galvanized is in a gray area in several food industries. It has never been "approved", but it has also not been banned. There is not a recognized health hazard associated with galvanized that I'm aware of, except that often galvanized materials and lead solder are frequently found together (old buckets, older storage tanks, etc.).

The Vermont maple industry is moving towards a phase-out of galvanized barrels for syrup storage, mainly because bulk buyers are being told their purchasers will not accept syrup from galvanized storage. I believe the same is true of the Quebec industry, but am not certain. It's a trickle-down thing that is just more a result of changing practices in food manufacturing.

Some organic certifying agencies are also suggesting a multi-year phase-out of galvanized in maple and honey production.

So, the sky isn't falling in regards to galvanized material, but then again, for those who want to try to look into the crystal ball, galvanized will most likely become less accepted. The way that different industries and different states/provinces will do this, whether by ignoring it or by banning it is unknown, and likely to vary from place to place.

Finally, there is no question that syrup kept for a long period of time in a good quality stainless steel barrel will be better quality than syrup stored in a old galvanized barrel.

Bucket Head

12-31-2009, 03:58 PM

Syrup storage and sap storage are, and should be viewed as two separate things.

I agree with Dr. Perkins for long-time syrup storage in stainless. The syrup is put in the drum hot and is in that barrel for how long- months, sometimes years? Cold sap is only in a bucket or tank for a short period of time.

There are hundreds of producers out there with old buckets (myself included), stock tanks, gathering tanks and pre-leadfree soldered evaporators that pass the lead test. If folks are passing with the equipment they have now, wheres the problem?

Whenever the day comes that guidelines are put into place, I hope they don't rule all galv. out. Hopefully they will see that its not all "bad".

Ruling out the older buckets and many of the tanks that are still used would be a terrible blow to this industry. Many producers would be forced to call it quits. They would not be able to fund new buckets and tanks at what they charge for them.

Steve

johnallin

12-31-2009, 04:27 PM

I'm in the same boat right now. I need a storage tank, stainless is not in the picture and there are no open top plastic tanks that I care for, but new galvanized stock tanks are readily available locally. I to believe that since the sap is only in there for a short time and if the tank is clean there should be no issue.

So why is it that no one will give a definate yea or nay? If you don't want to be "on record" or in print, please send a pm. Thanks

DrTimPerkins

12-31-2009, 05:43 PM

So why is it that no one will give a definate yea or nay?

Because doing so might be considered to be legal or expert advice, and thus imply liability for providing such advice. Also, most are not fully cognizant of the specific laws, rules, and regulations in each particular area, and these can vary widely, so there is no one "real" answer.

In most types of regulation, equipment must be "suitable for the intended purpose". Is a "STOCK" tank intended for maple sap storage?

Fred Henderson

12-31-2009, 05:57 PM

Look at it this way , think of the boon for the equipment dealers if galv is banned. There are more cows and other animals the we use in our food supply that drink/eat from galv containers, than what syrup is comsumed. In the end its all about the ever loving dollar.

Fred Henderson

12-31-2009, 06:16 PM

I think this would be a good reseach project for Dr Prekins. How much direct or indirect food is processed in galv equipment as compared to the maple industry. Meat grinders, jumpin jack rabbit everyone has got one in their home that is coated with galv. Then there is the white metal (Zinc) that is around a lot. How about the metal syrup cans that are zine coated. Boy someone has opened a can of worms with this one.

ryan marquette

12-31-2009, 09:22 PM

I am also in the same tank situation. I look at new galv. tanks all the time but I talk myself out of them every time. If you keep them clean & rust free & don't scratch the galv. I think they'll work. I think we all know that galv. stock tanks aren't the the best bet for sap storage. I try real hard not to invest any money in anything other than stainless or plastic, they last forever. But we can't always afford or find nice shiny stainless tanks. I think we as producers have to work, little by little, on phasing out anything in our opperations that rust or have lead, easier said than done.

DrTimPerkins

01-01-2010, 08:48 AM

I think this would be a good reseach project for Dr Perkins. How much direct or indirect food is processed in galv equipment as compared to the maple industry.

Some cans (of worms) are best left unopened. This is not a real high priority project (in my opinion at least), and there is probably no funding support available to do the work. As much as we would like to look into lots of different types of questions, we have to choose things that are applicable to lots of producers and those which we can secure grants to do the work.

maplehound

01-01-2010, 09:17 AM

If you are looking for cheap storage, look into old milk tanks. Like I have said before, they are becoming more available all the time, as small farmers are going under or enlarging their opperations. I myself have 6 tanks ranging frome a 500 gallon zero that was given to for trade of a refrigerant compressor that came from another tank, to 300 gallon flat tops of which the most I paid was $150 that i bought from a local farmer who quit milking years ago and just wanted it out of his milk house. I also have 2 300 gal. zero's that I paid $25.00 and $35.00 for that I picked up at auctions one of which was reserved till they could empty the milk out of it. You just need to be patiant and attend alot of auctions.

johnallin

01-01-2010, 10:03 AM

Maplehound,

What is a "zero" tank. If they are stainless and available in 100+ gallon sizes it sounds like they would work just fine.

Are they open topped, as stock tanks are for easy cleaning, or closed at the top?

Thank you

Fred Henderson

01-01-2010, 11:21 AM

A zero tank is round & rectangle with a manhole at the top. Orignilly designed for a vacumn milking system.

Bucket Head

01-01-2010, 12:27 PM

Wow Maplehound! I wish I had your luck when it comes to finding tanks. Or, I wish I was closer to your location!

Around here, it seems everyone with old dairying equipment looks at it as if its a "get rich quick opportunity". The asking prices around here put the stuff way out of reach for smaller guys like myself. Thats why all I have are plastic barrels and a 275gal. cage tank. And the cage tanks are hard to find around here. I would use more of them if I could find them.

So if anyone knows where there are cheap cage tanks or stainless tanks around central NY please let me know!

Thanks,
Steve

maplehound

01-01-2010, 12:46 PM

The zero tanks that I have are vaccum tanks. In fact two of them are 300 gallons and they are both great for use in the woods as collection tanks under vaccum. They are though the hardest ones to clean since they are round inside and the openings on top are small enough to make it a little hard to get to the top of the sides and reach all areas inside. The flat tops are really nice for storage and the larger openings make them real easy to clean after each time we empty them.
The big problem with finding them around here now is that our neighbor is buying all the tanks he can get ahold of to send to South America to help the farmers out there. Also if the tanks are in an Amish area the Amish farmers will pay a higher price for them than I am willing to pay. But if you are pesisitant and watch for tanks that the vaccume lines leak on then you can ussually get a great deal. Be ready though to have to remove the milk house wall to get them out (ussually they are made to be removed) Most scrap dealers aren't willing to remove the tanks from the milk house unless the get the tank for free. Just keep looking you will find them.

WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER

01-01-2010, 04:40 PM

Can of worms for sure. Lot of members on here use galvanized tanks and the word "stock" is a term that they were given long ago. With all this different hype about things, if the tanks were bad for any contamination, you can bet they would be banned from anything drinking from them.

Nice thing about them vs milk tanks that were mentioned is that they are easy to handle. I can pick up a 150 gallon one and carry it over my head by myself, so they are easy to move around and get in many locations you couldn't get a milk tank.

Most members are too scared to admit they use them because of all the hype but I will say, that is all I use for sap collection. I have 7 of them from 100 to 300 gallons. They are for sap only and as soon as season is over, they get scrubbed out with Dawn and pressured wash out good and go inside the sugarhouse, so the only time they are not inside is during syrup season. They have a flexible type seal, no soldering. I know I might take some heat for using them, but a lot of my areas, I couldn't get a milk tank to and I can drag or carry a galvanized tank to. Mentioned it before, but there is a ton of food including fruit still being canned in galvanized. Everything in sugarhouse is all stainless including 625 gallon Sunset milk tank and a 320 gallon Lappierre feed tank and I like stainless as much as everyone else and wish they would come out with a stainless "stock", but no demand.

Haynes Forest Products

01-01-2010, 04:53 PM

How many people have Galvanized water lines in there house???? When the pipe is made and coated and then threaded they end up with a small amout of bare iron exposed to the water side of things so you will get rusting in the lines. Water will sit in the lines for days and even weeks and then enter the food chain....BIG DEAL we are all fine. All the water lines from the city taps to the houses in the old sections of Denver are all LEAD. Just replaced one this year because we needed more volume to the house and the yard was dug up anyway not because it was a problem.

Fred Henderson

01-01-2010, 05:27 PM

Like I said the bottom line is dollars and how much the syrup equipment dealers can extract from us producers. When someone tells me I can no longer use galv buckets I am going to crush all the ones I have and really retire.

DrTimPerkins

01-01-2010, 06:28 PM

How many people have Galvanized water lines in there house????

Two MAJOR differences here....

1. Sap is (typically) slightly acidic, which means that the amount of material leached from the pipes they come in contact with is considerably higher.

2. Sap is concentrated 40x to make syrup, which also concentrates any contaminant.

Of course, the counter argument to that is that people consume far more water than they do syrup. However regulations don't always take that into account....they focus more frequently on simple concentration of the contaminant.

Fred Henderson

01-01-2010, 08:10 PM

How many people have copper pipes in their homes installed before 1994 when lead solder was used. Water is acidic to a degree.If people could look inside some of that pipe that their water passes thru they would gag. Transite pipe that was used as water main is known to have abestoes in it. How much of that is still in the ground. There are a lot more evils out there than Galv tanks.

Haynes Forest Products

01-01-2010, 09:04 PM

I could understand if the equipment manf were pushing for legislation to outlaw Galv then I would be on board with saying they are extracting money from us. Dont we then extract money from the people we sell to? I cant think of one thing I have bought that wasn't to improve my operation. Do I buy things because they are cool and shinny YES will my syrup be better tasting and lighter using SS I think so.

WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER

01-01-2010, 09:18 PM

. Do I buy things because they are cool and shinny YES will my syrup be better tasting and lighter using SS I think so.

I don't think so. I think the key is keeping the bacteria to a minimum. I clean and sanitize all my field tanks about once a week and all the sugarhouse tanks every day they get emptied. The majority of my syrup was light last year with 5 to 6 year old tubing and sap in storage 3 to 7 days most of the time. I don't think having all stainless would give you any better tasting or lighter syrup. I have had people from NE and one person from VT that has been involved with family run sugarhouse and syrup business tell me that my syrup is better than any that they have ever tasted in NE and I am not bragging at all as I have tasted very little NE syrup, just making a point that shiny SS is not the biggest key to making good quality syrup.

twobears1224

01-01-2010, 09:24 PM

have to ask this question..what makes a galv tank so evil??

delbert

WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER

01-01-2010, 09:34 PM

Maple dealers trying to sell more equipment and socialists.

Haynes Forest Products

01-01-2010, 09:43 PM

I think its a straw man that has been created and now they are shooting at it. Its just like The big producer in Door County Wisc. That uses a RO and says that its only right if its light. Im getting a little tired of the absolute purists and reformed sinners

KenWP

01-01-2010, 10:48 PM

I am glad nobody sees my operation. SS is hard to find around here except at a maple supplier and we all know their prices. I snap everything cheap I see in SS and go from there. I did find a good price on scraps of SS plate but its all odd sizes so I have to buy extra to peice it into anything.
Only reason I don't have anything galvinized except one old syrup pan which was here when I bought the place is I never see any of it except those old rusted syrup pails and I can buy the aluminium ones for 2 to 3 dollars if I watch closely. If a nice galvinized tank showed up it would probbably get used as long as it was clean and water tight.

Fred Henderson

01-02-2010, 04:45 AM

That guy can my share of light syrup I don't make it and I never will. It is sweet and sticky and that is all. It has no maple flavor and never will.

DrTimPerkins

01-02-2010, 08:37 AM

what makes a galv tank so evil??

I don't think anyone is saying galvanized is evil. It is more that nobody is saying that it is good or the right thing to use. Because the regulators won't say it's good, the equipment manufacturers won't (or in some cases CAN'T) sell it to you for that purpose. Depends upon what the regulations in your area say. Not much point blaming the equipment dealers....they're covering their own butts, and most likely that is caused by their liability insurance companies covering their butts. They pretty much don't have any choice but to sell supplies and materials that are approved for maple use.

If you buy a "stock" tank from your local ag or feed store, then by definition it is for watering animals, not for storing sap in. Nobody is going to (most likely) jump out of the bushes and drag you off to jail, but then again, nobody is going to say, sure, go right ahead and use that stock tank for maple sap. If you asked the folks at the feed store if it was OK to put maple sap (food) into, they might not sell it to you (that pesky insurance liability thing again). Similar thing if you buy a "trash" can to store sap in. If it is truly a "trash" can, then it's made to put trash into....NOT food. If it is a food-grade or water potable storage container, then it's probably just fine for sap.

twobears1224

01-02-2010, 09:05 AM

so stock tanks are evil because somebody says so with no good reason??
hummm,i haven,t looked at a galv stock tank in awhile but lets see.there made of plain old steel then coated in galv..with galv being made of zinc right?? are the seams soldered now a days?? or are they just a watertight seam??
i would think if something is used around our food supply it should be safe for food.if cow drank water from a stock tank and picked up lead because the tank was hold together with lead based solder we would end up getting lead too. lead would buildup in a cow just like it does us and then we would eat the meat laced with lead.
i see nothing wrong at all with using a stock tank to collect sap there no diffrent then a tank my uncle has and 100,s if not 1000,s of sugar makers had at one time.he bought it from leader years ago.it,s a square 750 gallon galv sap tank.we used it for years as a back up to our 1200 gallon round bottom galv sap tank.
i think everybody is going to stainless steel because they keep hearing how one day it,ll be all you can use for sap and for the lesser reason that it won,t rust at some point..thats what i hear anyhow.i bet if they knew galv tanks would be useable in the future you wouldn,t see many stainless steel tanks being bought.

delbert

ps:just my opinion

DrTimPerkins

01-02-2010, 10:34 AM

so stock tanks are evil because somebody says so with no good reason?? <snip>....are the seams soldered now a days?? or are they just a watertight seam??

Again, nobody is saying anything about these older galvanized tanks or buckets being bad (unless they have ternplate or lead-solder in them). The issue arises because nobody (government or industrial manufacturer) will say that these materials are OK. If no regulatory body will certify them as being OK, then the maple equipment manufacturers can't sell them to you even if they wanted to. If they did, they'd open themselves to civil lawsuits, governmental regulatory action, and the loss of their liability insurance. Pretty unlikely they're going to do that. Their only alternative is to sell you a SS tank (which is an accepted material) or a poly-tank (if food grade or water-potable).

You do bring up yet another issue however. Most of these tanks are made with rolled seasons (not soldered). Rolled seams no longer meet most current food equipment manufacturing industry standards. A rolled seam cannot be totally cleaned. Stuff can get into the small space and spoil and you can't get it out. In most food industries, sanitary welds are the standard.

Nobody (yet) is saying you can't use what you already have. But if you do go out and buy a "stock" tank or "trash" barrel to put sap into (which you most likely did NOT get from a maple equipment dealer), you are not using equipment that is "suitable for the intended purpose."

johnallin

01-02-2010, 12:11 PM

Bingo....Thank you Dr. Tim that's the best answer I've read yet.

<But if you do go out and buy a "stock" tank or "trash" barrel to put sap into (which you most likely did NOT get from a maple equipment dealer), you are not using equipment that is "suitable for the intended purpose.">

Sounds like a prudent individual (lawyer?) could drag you over the coals with that one. Good enough enough for me; it's food grade plastic or stainless.

WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER

01-03-2010, 03:20 PM

All the tanks I have are sealed with a flexible type of seal so the sap doesn't get to the crimp which puts the crimps on outside of the tank.. One of the interesting things I have seen on here is that some of guys that say don't buy galvanized stock tanks but say the rubbermaid stock tanks are fine and I would guess that Dr Perkins would agree that they are not "food grade".

twobears1224

01-03-2010, 03:49 PM

WESTVA:i agree with ya.i,de drink from a galv tank long before i would a poly tank..food grade or not...look at water bottles...we use them everyday but are they really food grade?? from what i hear there not safe..they are made from chemicals and oil right??

delbert

WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER

01-03-2010, 03:53 PM

Here's how I look at it. I guess I would be considered a paticular person and very concerned about cleanliness. My view is this, I have 2 small kids and I don't want to sell to anyone else what wouldn't feed to my kids and all four of us like and eat quite a bit of syrup.

KenWP

01-03-2010, 05:15 PM

Same with garden hoses. Drink from most garden hoses on a hot day and taste the water. You have to buy food grade water hoses for drinking water also.

Fred Henderson

01-03-2010, 05:34 PM

Plastic tubing has got to be the most unsanitary item to come down the pike for the syrup industry. We already know that it can be cleaned a hundred times and still be full of bacteria, if for no other reason than the procity of its construction. Before anyone starts knocking on galv they better take a long serious look at plastic tubing. Look at how many times tubing manufactures have changed how tubing it made and they still haven't got it right.

maplehound

01-03-2010, 05:54 PM

i guess the way I look at galvanized versus plastic or SS is what happens if someone claims to have gotten sick using my syrup? What looks better to a judge and jury not to mention the insurance company? I would think that with the lead scares and the fact that most of us are self regulated that it is in our best intrest to run our operations in the most sterile looking enviroment that we can. (notice I say the most sterile LOOKING) What the customer sees and thinks when they come to my operation is just as important as what the inspector that pulls my syrup from the shelf finds when he tests it.

DrTimPerkins

01-03-2010, 06:55 PM

..... rubbermaid stock tanks ....I would guess that Dr Perkins would agree that they are not "food grade".

Yes, I would agree that this type of tank, unless it is specifically made of food-grade materials or is certified as water-potable, is not "suitable" for maple sap storage. Many of these types of plastics that are not food-grade or water-potable contain regrind material....which has an undetermined origin. Couldve' been almost anything stored in it.

Here's a little experiment. Take one of these tanks...or a trash can....brand new off the store shelf. Bring it home and fill it with water and let it set for 2-3 days. Then put some of that water into a nice clean glass jar (best would be some new glass for maple syrup) and put a cover on it. Put it on your shelf for a few hours then open it up and immediately take a sniff. If you've got any sense of smell, you'll quickly know why putting maple sap (which is normally slightly acidic and thus more agressive in leaching materials from plastic) in these things is not the best idea. I've seen sap in a brand new green trash can that was green after two days (and it wasn't algae). These tanks are cheap for a reason....because they were not meant to store food or water in them.

DrTimPerkins

01-03-2010, 07:02 PM

Plastic tubing has got to be the most unsanitary item to come down the pike for the syrup industry. We already know that it can be cleaned a hundred times and still be full of bacteria...

Plastic tubing (both mainline and lateral line/dropline) is made of food-grade or water-potable materials. So from a chemical perspective, no problem.

From a microbiological perspective you are absolutely correct....LOTS of bacteria are harbored in the tubing sytem. Fortunately they are either all filtered out or are killed in the boiling process. Thus the hazard is entirely mitigated, although there are negative consequences on sap yield and sap quality due to tubing system contamination.

Bucket Head

01-03-2010, 10:02 PM

I see OESCO Inc. in Mass. carries Snyder Ind. brand poly tanks. The heading says "High density, roto molded poly tanks, for potable water, chemicals, sap, cider, fertilizers". Along the side of the catalog page it also says "Use white or black tanks only for potable water". I'm assuming they mean only the tanks they carry, not all "white or black" tanks? I'm sure their not cheap but maybe this is an option for the "suitable use" definition? It would eliminate any liability on the sap storage issue.

I second Dr. Perkins motion on not using the garbage cans for sap. I hav'nt done the taste or smell experiment, but I have seen water laying in brand new, unused poly trash cans and they had that rainbow colored oily film on top of the water. Thats enough right there for me to count those out as storage vessels!

And the galvanized issue still disturbs me. I do not use any stock tanks, but I have contemplated getting one to fill a need for an inexpensive and easy to clean out storage vessel. I will continue to look for more IBC cage tanks. We'll see how my storage dilemma works out. Its just surprising to me that the galv. tanks are viewed the way they are. Like I said, thousands of these are used every year by folks making perfectly good syrup. Both the little guys and the large producers use them year in and year out. Ever watch any maple related Youtube videos? I've been watching some lately and I was very surprised by their usage. Thousands and thousands of galv. pails, gathering tanks and stock tanks are still used all over the U.S. and Canada.

I hope it never comes down to someone saying that galv. equipment can no longer be used. Thousands of producers, including myself, would be forced to stop sugaring, ...for no good reason.

Steve

twobears1224

01-03-2010, 10:08 PM

from what i,ve gathered from this post we should be using stamped stainless steel buckets with sealed lids under vacuum and they should be washed and sanitized every day then we should gather them using some sort of sealed vacuum system so the sap never touchs anything that can contaminate it..ofcourse it would be all stainless steel with maybe some food grade flex hose as needed.after each use it would be all cleaned and stored in a germ free eviroment.
the storage tanks would be all stainless steel with the proper construction to be food grade.they would need to be sealed to keep out any bad stuff and cleaned daily.
the pans would need to be all stainless steel and totally sealed to keep the stray bug,human hair,dust,ect out.at night we would have to totaly drain the pans into stainless steel food grade drums and seal them to keep the sap safe overnight.they would need to be cooled asap and keep locked up over night in a cooler.there locked up incase binladin comes around and cooled to keep the bad bugs from growing to fast and making us sick.in the morning a fed would test each barrel and tell you if it,s safe to boil again.ofcourse there,ll be a tax and surcharge to do that...ooo,and several pieces of paperwork to fill out.
we,ll all have to use oil to boil with we can,t be using that dirty old buggy wood.we,ll have to have epa approved oil storage tanks and a epa approved arch..whats that about carbon credits??
the syrup will have to run thur a totally sealed system from drawoff valves to food grade stainless steel drum.the guy running that end of things will need several hours of training on handling food and the proper use of all equpiment.at the end of boiling everything will have to be broken down cleaned and inspected by a fed before the next use and it,ll have to be stored in a locked stirle room for storage.a fed will need to be on post as we boil to look over things..he,ll be payed x number of dollars per hour and yep,there,ll be taxes and surcharges on your bill.
the sugarhouse will o longer be a collection of what ever lumber you have on hand.i,ll be built to food grade standards and cost a arm,leg and new born child...and yes there be tax on that and a surcharge.
when,it,s time to sell those stainless steel drums of syrup you,ll need to have each one rechecked by a fed and each barrle will go onto a truck.that truck will be driven by a guy that has the proper training and a fbi/homeland background check..can,t have that bin guy driven.the truck will need a ecort right to bascoms,maple grove,ect..where it,ll be taken off and locked in a /cooled locked vault.guards will be posted at the door/24/7/365.
you don,t even wanta hear the rules after that...

delbert

ps:anybody got a million i can borrow??..i really wanta tap my 50 taps..but i can,t afford it under those rules.

twobears1224

01-03-2010, 10:15 PM

BUCKETHEAD WROTE: hope it never comes down to someone saying that galv. equipment can no longer be used. Thousands of producers, including myself, would be forced to stop sugaring, ...for no good reason.

you got it brother..i would say the use over the years says if we should use galv or not.but some lawyer that knows NOTHING!! about sugaring or even galv and or stock tanks will deside that question...and we,ll be SOL!!! the only sugarmakers will be huge companys that can afford to sugar like i just wrote about in my other post.

delbert

KenWP

01-03-2010, 10:45 PM

Twobears you forgot the fact that a sugar house will have to be closed for 8 hours a day for cleaning. I worked for one of the largest food companys in the country and the rules for just the meat section would drive a guy to drink everyday. I spent most of a day trying to explain to people that worked for me that we can't do that in this county like you can in certain countrys you come from. I used to shoot perfectly healthy pigs and throw then away just becasue they were not big enough to ship and the barns had to be cleaned for the next batch.

Thompson's Tree Farm

01-04-2010, 03:56 AM

Yes, I worry about over regulation too. That is the reason that we should work hard at policing ourselves. Do I use galvanized? Yup! But I am trying to gradually phase it out and replace with stainless. Regulations usually occur for a reason. If some producers are selling an inferior product because they are not doing an effective job of cleaning or are using something that causes contamination we will see regulation and unfortunately, it may be over regulation. I still use galvanized buckets. Ever go to an auction where there are galvanized buckets and most of the buckets have some rust in the bottom and/or the galvanize gone from the bottom inch or 2? Somebody left sap sitting in those buckets for an extended period. If that sap was processed and not dumped, where did the zinc from that coating go?
MY 2 cents
Doug

DrTimPerkins

01-04-2010, 06:08 AM

Yes, I worry about over regulation too. That is the reason that we should work hard at policing ourselves.

EXACTLY. Instead of being concerned about over-regulation and feds knocking on your sugarhouse door and hiding behind every tree, you'd be better concerned about the folks down the road who got a great buy on tubing (because it was non-food/non-water-potable), but don't care because it was cheap and they're making perfectly good syrup (not food) -- or at least it never killed anybody. Or the folks who use some real nasty industrial chemical they got at work to clean their finishing pan and filter press because it leaves the equipment real shiny and clean....no need to rinse it off. Or the sugarmaker who mixes two cleaners together because they both work well individually...must be better together....and gets poisoned. Or the grandkid who drinks the stuff in the unlabeled jar in the sugarhouse thinking it's syrup, when it's actually RO cleaner. These are the folks who will end up injuring a consumer, bringing the regulators in, require all the changes that nobody wants and probably aren't needed, and will drive people out of maple due to cost. I can almost guarantee it.

Fred Henderson

01-04-2010, 06:34 AM

Bucket Head

01-04-2010, 04:38 PM

I do worry about people using equipment that they know should not be used. I have told people that they should'nt use whatever they were attempting to use. I've told people that here on this forum. I can tell folks that galv. equipment is a gray area and try to explain why, and hope they understand. But none of us can stop the guy who decides to use automotive engine degreaser in his pans at 2:00am after his last boil. None of us can go through everyone's sugarhouse and make sure all liquids are labled correctly and out of the reach of children.

I think the majority of us do a good job at policing ourselves. Unfortunately, its those few ignorant folks that will cause problems for us all. Like my grandfather used to say, "Theres no fix for stupid. You either are or are'nt".

I too hope that sugaring does not become over-regulated. I also hope that the usage of galv. equipment does not get the over-regulated process started.

Steve

KenWP

01-04-2010, 06:05 PM

I got a chuckle out of the guy mixing to cleaner together. A few years ago I seen a SS evap at a dealer that was pocked with rust mark the size of a dime. When I asked what happened to the the reply was the PO had used chlorine to clean it.

This might be a really dumb guestion but how did bleach put rust spots on SS. I could see it maybe with acid but not bleach.

DrTimPerkins

01-04-2010, 06:56 PM

This might be a really dumb guestion but how did bleach put rust spots on SS. I could see it maybe with acid but not bleach.

Chloride ions are fairly agressive (part of what makes it such a good antimicrobial agent). Clorox (sodium hypochlorite) solutions above 5% concentration should be avoided in stainless steel, or at least rinsed extremely well after use. You can use Clorox, but not in high concentration and be sure to RINSE VERY WELL afterward. Never put Clorox in your pans and let it set for a long time -- unless you want to have lots of little holes in the pans that is.

Same goes for acids, except that often acids will attack the welds (it's even worse on solder). Either way....you won't be happy.

Very good info on Stainless Steel (types, cleaning, things to avoid) at http://www.bssa.org.uk/faq.php?id=10

Fred Henderson

01-04-2010, 07:34 PM

This might be a really dumb guestion but how did bleach put rust spots on SS. I could see it maybe with acid but not bleach.

I did not say bleach, I said chlorine. Household bleach is less than 3%. He probably used swimming pool chlorine or something he" got from work".

twobears1224

01-05-2010, 07:47 AM

somemore FYI:zinc is in alot of food you eat and products you use everyday.you can even go to a drug store and get supplements of zinc.

delbert

Logscaler

01-05-2010, 02:47 PM

Yes, I worry about over regulation too. That is the reason that we should work hard at policing ourselves.
MY 2 cents
Doug

Amen brother - if we don't do it someone else will!

chenango maple

01-05-2010, 07:25 PM

Oh well dig deep. Sounds like in the long run stainless is the way to go. I know a few places that can weld stainless. I wonder if there is any magic needed in the welding process to make it food grade or if it needs to be bought prefabricated and certified as food grade? It would be shame to spend all that money on materials a labor only to find out it is not certified so you lose.

KenWP

01-05-2010, 10:18 PM

The fellow at the supply store was telling me to use 316L rods for maple as that's what is required in Quebec. That and it's the only rods they sell around here that I can find anyways.

Fred Henderson

01-06-2010, 05:30 AM

While surfing the net yesterday I found a company that will make me a custom made plastic food grade sap holding tank with cover. It will be under 400 bucks and I just need to confirm weight and shipping cost.

KenWP

01-06-2010, 08:47 AM

We had a place near home back in Alberta that would make these white plastic tanks for you also. You could buy a pretty big tank for a reasonable price also. I had one made for holding meat that just fit in this old square cavity fridge I had.

Bucket Head

01-06-2010, 04:27 PM

Come on Fred, spill the beans! What company? Are they in NY? How big of tank? Were waiting...LOL!

Steve

Fred Henderson

01-06-2010, 05:54 PM

I have no idea where they are as I have not called them yet but you can take a look here.http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?cat=36. I would like to get some where near the capacity that I have now(180gals) but I do not want a bulkhead fitting in the tank. That makes them just too dang hard to clean. I now use a galv(OMG) stock tank. I flanged a piece of 1-1/4" copper tubing and soldered(lead free) it to the bottom. So I have no protusions into the tank. Its drain completely. The tank is inside and in the crossovers or rafter ties as some prefer to call them and covered. I never have to worry about a frozen feed line.

Toblerone

01-14-2010, 10:08 PM

What about the Rubbermaid (http://www.rcpworksmarter.com/rcp/products/detail.jsp?categoryCode=waste&subCategoryCode=waste_brute_utility&rcpNum=2643-60&categoryCode_subCategoryCode_rcpNum=waste_waste_br ute_utility_2643-60) commercial waste cans that are Certified NSF #2 (http://www.techstreet.com/standards/NSF/2_1996?product_id=10424)? NSF #2 says this:

"This standard covers equipment commonly known as "fabricated food equipment" (kitchen, bakery, pantry, and cafeteria units, and other food handling and processing equipment including tables and components, counters, shelves, sinks, hoods, etc.)."

Also, what about all those transfer pumps that people are using... including boat bilge pumps? Are those food safe?

Is it the rule that only products specifically made for maple production are to be considered safe?

KenWP

01-15-2010, 05:12 AM

As long as it's not remanufactured plastic your okay. That's a new one about the pumps. This should be fun. As long as they are sealed bilge pumps not much metal will get to the sap and they are tiney.
If you bought only made for maple production products you would go broke quick. They charge double what it's worth for some stuff. They sell the plastic taps and such cheap so you have to get all the expensive stuff to make syrup.

Toblerone

01-15-2010, 12:36 PM

I am also using 5-gallon white "paint" buckets that I bought brand new from Lowes. I called the manufacturer and they said that, although the buckets are not certified, they were made from virgin material and were food safe. I guess I am just taking their word for it.

Here is a link (http://www.rcpworksmarter.com/rcp/products
/detail.jsp?categoryCode=foodservice&subCategoryCode=foodservice_food_storage&rcpNum=9F86) to a Rubbermaid waste can designed to be used for ice, and it has the same NSF#2 rating as the gray cans that I use, so it/they must be food safe, right? They also sell a clear hinged lid and scoop for these cans for scooping ice and other food products.