new guy here

[Mike in NY]

eastern NY on southern tip of Lake george. Last yr we put out 160 buckets and boiled on a 2x4 raise flue Grimm evaporator w a 2x2 flat finishing pan.1st time in 30 yrs I have made syrup.
When things went well we could boil close to 20 gph.Going to add a steam away/preheater this yr and 150 taps on a gravity system into sugarhouse. Hang only 30 buckets.
The potential is there for 400+ taps all on a gravity line direct into sugarhouse. Another 600+ taps availble close nearby if I had the time and/or equiptment to ever handle that many.
Any suggestions to slowly grow w/ the syrup paying for the upgrades?
local market seems to bear 15$ a quart, somewhat more for pints. I would like to have 200 quarts to market this year.
Thanks for your time and any suggestions are welcome

[Haynes Forest Products]

Bigger evap or get the RO Bite the big bullet and get it all now and you will pay it off with a few good years.

[KenWP]

That or do it my way plug along at it day and night untill your done and then be bored for the rest of the year.

[DrTimPerkins]

Any suggestions to slowly grow w/ the syrup paying for the upgrades?

Tap all the trees you can and sell any excess sap (assuming you can find somebody nearby who wants to buy it for a fair price). Use the income from the sap sale to finance the expansion of your own operation (adding more taps, adding a vacuum pump).

Basically, you make your money in the woods. Focus on that aspect of the operation first.

[gator330]

Search PATheron and all of his postings. He has mastered keeping it SMALL!!!!

This bug hits us all a little diffrent but one thing is for shure there is no cure for it. Have fun and remember it's all about the syrup from here on out. How much, how fast, how good, no matter how hard!!!!

[red maples]

I made the initial investment this year but plan on putting 1/2 of everthing I sell back into the sugarhouse..vac, more taps add on etc and the other half to payback to the house savings account. so that should take a few years:rolleyes:

[Mike in NY]

Tap all the trees you can and sell any excess sap (assuming you can find somebody nearby who wants to buy it for a fair price). Use the income from the sap sale to finance the expansion of your own operation (adding more taps, adding a vacuum pump).

Basically, you make your money in the woods. Focus on that aspect of the operation first.

Believe I have read couple articles authored by you pertaining to your UVM sugarbush. God stuff!
Tap all I can get huh? including mine I have access to about 1000 taps on 3 gravity systems all within 2 miles of my sugarhouse.
have to give some thought to this option

[Mike in NY]

I made the initial investment this year but plan on putting 1/2 of everthing I sell back into the sugarhouse..vac, more taps add on etc and the other half to payback to the house savings account. so that should take a few years:rolleyes:

I started w/ a 12x12 sugarhouse and as soon as we spotted the evaporator I realized we were hopelessly undersized. A 12 x 24 addition in a "T" shaped addition shall be put on next summer.
as far as return on investment money spent so far is a long term investment. From here on out I would like to pay for upgrades from sales
My records are not the best but I suspect I am close to 3 grand out of pocket. I think I did it a lot cheaper than I could have spent but still had I known how much just to get up and running I question if I could have justified it. but I did and when we get things dialed in I think it will be worth it to me

[dschultz]

If I had access to 1000 taps 2 miles from me I'd be in there as fast as I could

[PATheron]

Mike- If your doing it for fun whatever you do is good. If you want to make money you have to think vac. The way I would do it is start with the lines and run them for vac, more maineline less lateral, then tap all the trees you can like the guys are saying. Put a dairy pump on it if you have to. All the lines I run seem to come out to the same money. It almost always cost me 5000$ per thousand taps doing it myself and using black pipe. Releaser is roughly a thousand and the dairy pump 500$ for a good one. You get a ring pump and your really making sap but your at least at a couple thousand for that. If you have vac your pretty much always going to get sap if its over 32 degrees. Down here last year we had just a handfull of gravity days but I made syrup from January to April. Say you manage to do the thousand taps for 7 thousand with a dairy pump and you do a third. Thats little over 300 gallons. Thats 9 thousand in the barrell. More in your jugs. Maybe make sap like that and sell it and then try to get some bigger sugarhouse equipment used? If you want sap get vac, and if you want to make a lot of syrup yourself get an ro. Theron

[Mike in NY]

Theron; I here what you are saying
At this point I am having fun. I enjoy being in the sugarhouse when I am not saving the world making filter paper. have a fram oil filter in your truck? I probably helped make it...
as a former dairy farmer I assumed the profit was to be made in the value added part of production; ie in the sugarhouse making syrup and candy etc. Sorta like making cheese, ice cream or butter out of milk. But apparently I need to investigate the marketing of the sap.
That said if I wanted to make 30 gallons of syrup this yr then skip a yr or 2 before boiling again I could. But if I make the size investment you, and others are, suggesting then I need to see a return on my money. And that ,potentialy ,could take most of the fun out of it.
thats why I found this place. to seek advice from some of you folks already been there,done that...
thanks fer your input!
all of you

[DrTimPerkins]

And that, potentialy, could take most of the fun out of it.

If you're only interested in sugaring for the enjoyment, then don't think about growth, at least for 2-3 years. Just keep doing what you're doing. If you decide to expand a couple of years down the road...fine. If not, just keep having fun. If you're not in it to make money, at the scale you're at....you should just hope to break even (not counting your time). Nothing wrong with that.

The one drawback to the enjoyment of boiling is that you can always find ways to spend money in the sugarhouse on toys and gadgets.

[Mike in NY]

If you're only interested in sugaring for the enjoyment, then don't think about growth, at least for 2-3 years. Just keep doing what you're doing. If you decide to expand a couple of years down the road...fine. If not, just keep having fun. If you're not in it to make money, at the scale you're at....you should just hope to break even (not counting your time). Nothing wrong with that.

The one drawback to the enjoyment of boiling is that you can always find ways to spend money in the sugarhouse on toys and gadgets.

this yr we are gonna run what we have. Gonna spend some money on getting the gravity system up and working. This week the back pan is going out to have a hood fabricated for it so I can build my version of a pre-heater / steamaway.
before I part w/ my hard earned money I like to have a plan in place as too where I want to be. and then I ponder it for awhile.
jes working on the plan...
thanks

[KenWP]

Maple season was fun until the last week or so and then it became a job. Day after day after day of boiling just to make room for more sap to boil again. Then the trees stopped and your sad that it's over for another year. At the same time your already planning to make improvements for next year. It's like your kids swim team your so glad it's over but she's waiting for it to start again so she can swim everyday again.

[Haynes Forest Products]

My Pappy told me SON when your hobby becomes your job its no longer a hobby:rolleyes: :mad: :cry:

[3rdgen.maple]

Mike you have pretty much summed up what I have done over the years. My initial investment I chalked up to spending money to have fun. I put every dime back into the operation. After my grandfather sold his farm along with his maple equipment when I was 12 I spent 4 years missing it and the time with him and my father in the spring boiling. So at 16 I went out and got a 3foot by 3 foot flat pan some concrete blocks 50 buckets and a tarp. Boiled outside under that tarp for 2 seasons with regular visits from gramps. Well he decided he missed it so he pulled in the driveway one day with a used 2x8 flat pan setup and a truck of lumber. We spent the summer building a sugarhouse at my dads. I dont recall how long we boiled on that rig but when he passed away things just were not the same. I would stop and help my father after he took over for him but something was always missing. Then my dad decided to retire and wanted to cut back on all the work he had to do around the house cutting wood and maintenance on an old house so I offered to buy his place and move him and mom into mine. Spent the first year there boiling on the old 2x8 flat pan and decided it was time for some change and if I was gonna make syrup I wanted to grow the business. So I went out and doubled my tap count from 200 to 400 and soon realized I needed some sleep once in awhile in the spring. So I ordered a new 2x6 drop flue for a christmas present for my dad and myself. I had my grandfathers name painted on the door of the arch in dedication to him and shared some tears on christmas with my dad that year and from that point forward I decided it was gonna be part of my life and looked forward to spending the time with him just like I did with gramps. I enjoy it very much and will expand it with every penny I make from it so I will have a little retirement income when it is my time to retire. I wish I would have sucked up and boiled on that rig one more year and put the money into a 3x8. So now I am planning on trading in the 2 year old 2x6 this summer if all goes as planned and putting in the 3x8. So after getting carried away with that story I will suggest to you that if you are gonna save the green stuff to upgrade look into the future and decide where you want to be. Jumping the gun on a new rig like I did was a mistake. I love the rig and it keeps up just fine with my current setup but If I expand by 200 taps every year like planned I should have waited it out and got the 3x8 first. I will put add ons to the 3x8 as I grow to keep up. Another idea is that maple candy, cream etc should bring in a better profit than just plain syrup. There is a better return on it per volume of syrup. What ever you do keep it fun and enjoy. And welcome to the trader.

[Bucket Head]

"When your hobby turns into a job, its no longer a hobby". This is true.

But I prefer this qoute- " Work at doing something you enjoy, and it won't seem like work".

I would love to turn my hobby into my job. Yeah, there would be headaches along with it, but it sure would beat the daily headaches of my current occupation!

Steve

[Haynes Forest Products]

I remember the first resturant job I had the manager said eat all you want any time you want. After 2 days I was on a diet could'nt stand the sight of the stuff. 2nd job worked in a Pizza place and we had to eat our mistakes YIKES:(

[maple flats]

I'm with Bucket Head, I also would love to make my hobbies my job on at least 2 fronts. First of course is maple and while we are dreaming, secondly would be hunting. Sounds like a winning combo to me, make maple and hunt. Look out for a TV show, "Huge Whitetails with Maple Flats". Now I'll need an RO, and a tank truck to haul sap and a video camera and sponsors to pay for me to hunt the prime whitetail areas of the world.

[ibby458]

Welcome to Maple Trader!

I started out with a flat pan and make-shift arches. My problem was always more sap than I could process. (Finding and tapping trees is always a lot easier than boiling it fast enough on a flat pan) Then I borrowed a 2x8 REAL evaporator, and made 10x the syrup in one season. I put it all in barrels and sold it for enough to buy a new-to-me 30x8, and recoup ALL my expenses.

While there is no doubt bulk sales pay less per gallon, you get it all in one big payment with no fuss or bother. When I take my syrup in every spring, I also take my supply list for the next year. Most buyers are also dealers, and if you got good syrup, they'll cut you a deal on supplies to keep the good syrup coming. Now I only jug up enough for friends and family, and some of batches that are particularly good.

Unless you want a HUGE evaporator (and you can get a better deal on used huge ones than smaller ones) or are willing to spend 24/7 boiling, plan on an RO. Get the RO BEFORE you put on the vacuum pump, so you can handle the gush and still get some sleep.

A lot of people upgrade when they sell their bulk, and you can do the same. Put whatever you can into barrels and take it to Bascoms or some such place and trade for a used RO. There are deals to be had. I just bought a 300 gph Small Brothers RO with new membranes for $200. (It was missing a valve and some fittings). I got a HUGE Wallenstein rotary vane vacuum pump for $75. Haven't tried it yet, but at most it needs a rebuild kit. I'm still looking for a deal on a releaser (Or plans to make one), but tubing is still a couple years away for me. Still, when I sell my bulk this year, I'll trade for all the tubing I need. If necessary, next year I'll trade for a new releaser.

I also pay my county taxes out of syrup sales each year, so supplies and materials only run about half of what I make, so putting half back into your savings is doable.

In short, figure out how to process all the sap BEFORE it's all sitting around in tanks, tubs and barrels, Trade syrup for supplies and you'll be just a bit bigger than you want before you know it, with little additional cash outlay.

[sapman]

Welcome, Mike! Did you sell your syrup to summer tourists much? Seems like you're in a prime place to do that, but I suppose there are others sugarmakers in the area, too. Seems like when the NYers are in town, they might be willing to pay considerably more for syrup, as long as they want it, of course.

I think you are being wise not to grow too fast, though it seems like quicker expansion does have good potential.

Tim

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I would think with a 2x6 raised flue evaporator, for starters, you should be able to get at least 30 gph out of it. Might need to get the wood drier, split is smaller, or something else as that is pretty low gph if you have a 2x4 flue pan with 8 flues that are 7 or 7.5 inches deep. If you can get the evaporator to 30 to 35 gph, it will help the steamaway do much better also.

[PerryW]

pawn the wife & kinds and get a 3x8 or bigger. Or pawn the house too and get RO.