Sap Collection Sled

[C.Wilcox]

Does anybody have their collection tank on a sled? I'm thinking I may have to build one to haul my tank seeing as how the area I'm tapping is pretty low in elevation and I'm concerned that a trailer will just sink in the soft ground once the weight of the sap is added. Anybody have any advice on why I should or shouldn't use one? I'm thinking I'd make the runners about 6 to 8 inches wide to give it some float and maybe even make the entire underside into a skid so it can't sink out of sight even in the mud. Kind of like an old stone boat. Any thoughts on the idea?

[gator330]

I have a horse drawn sled that I use for winter hay rides. I have thought about picking up buckets with the team along the edge of my woods with it. Would take more time then I have right now. Maybe some day for the fun of it i'll set buckets and do it. They say the gas engine was built for a reason. As was the use of tubeing. It's faster!! Mine is up on bobs rather then a stone boat type. But what your saying would work on frozen ground. What are you going to pull it with? How hard is the ground under it?

[C.Wilcox]

gator-

The area I'm tapping is in the floodplain of a local creek so while it will likely be frozen solid in early March I'm anticipating it will get fairly messy by the end of the month. The landowner has insisted that it doesn't actually flood in the woods, but you know how that can be. I have an Allis Chalmers C tractor that I'm planning on using to pull the sled.

[KenWP]

Okay when the mud gets deep what you going to pull the tractor with.Remember to put a few springs in that flat bottom sled or it's going to be rough on that tank full of sap.
What kind of trail is it. I have used a flat bottom sled and if there is any humps right in the middle of the trail or to the one side your looking for a tip over real quick.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Sap sleds were used for years when most sap was drawn to the sugar house by horses or oxen and they were used throughout the season...on the mud as well as snow. When spots started to get dry is when the sledding got really tough. I think your idea of a sled staying atop the mud is correct but your problem will be the little tractor (or a big one for that matter). It will be buried if it is wet. As the frost goes out, you will be driving along and all at once a wheel will drop 2 feet into a hole and you will learn all kinds of methods to extricate yourself as well as lots of new choice words. When we went from horses to a tractor, all our woods roads had to be moved to the ridges from the valleys so we weren't stuck all the time. This had the additional disadvantage of necessitating carrying the sap uphill to the gathering rig. It took some time for us to wise up but after 20 years, we went back to horses:lol: .

[gator330]

Problem solved C.Wilcox all you need to do is get a team of horses!!!!

[DOlson]

Don't build the runners too wide, it will increase the drag to the point that the little C Allis won't pull it. The team of horses is a great idea.

[gator330]

What would be a good width for the runners? I'm now thinking I want to build a sled to put cut wood on and drive it out of the woods. I'm thinking Six wide by eight long with three feet front and sides would do it with full 2x6 runners with 1 1/2 inch flat stock over them

[C.Wilcox]

So all I have to do is buy a team of horses?? Here I was thinking this was going to be difficult. :) I know the tractor isn't ideal given that it's 2-wheel drive, but I'm hoping to keep it on the highest ground possible and avoid sinking up to the axle. I'm sure I'll get the pleasant experience of getting it unstuck at some point though. Maybe I need to buy a bigger tractor.....who wants to tell my wife? ;)

I grew up working on a farm that raised Belgian draft horses and I can tell you that while they may not get stuck as much as a tractor they can still give you just as many fits. I remember one spring morning in particular when 2 mares broke into the stud pen. Must have been lonely. When I went to separate them they got all spooky as only horses can and pretty soon they had all 22 of them fired up. At that point they proceeded to run through every fence on the farm. It was almost as if the buggers were aiming for them. The stud was having the time of his life of course, but some of the mares were a bit more virtuous than others and were donkey-kicking him in the chest. He couldn't have cared one bit. Despite only being 12 at the time I had plenty of choice words for them all that day.

Back to the runner width, does anyone have any thoughts on how wide to make them? I'm planning for 6 inches. Does that seem about right? Anyone have pictures of a vintage version?

[gator330]

C.Wilcox on my way out to the barn to measure the bobs that go under my sliegh get back to you in a few.

[gator330]

Ok, the runners or rails are 32" on center apart. Now keep in mind this is a set of bobs front and back with a pole from front to back. The rails are 2" wide and 3" tall (wood) that brace up to a hight of 12" there is 4" wide flat stock (steal) attched to the runner. Hope this helps. By the way Thanks for getting thinking I need to do something like this aswell. I needed more stuff in my head. As for the telling the wife you need a bigger tractor. I'd be happy to tell her how it's going to be!!! I'm so good at it hear why not with someone elses wife too.]

[3rdgen.maple]

You might also want to consider putting a some kinda of skag down the middle of the runners for side bite like a snowmobile has on it's ski's. I am picturing the thing hitting a side slope and getting jacked up. I would definately not go the full width to much drag and with a 2 wheel drive you are gonna dig in. Also what size tank are you putting on the sled? A big tank and small runners is gonna sink. Remember also that if you hit some wet stuff the snow is gonna stick to them and make things harder so you might also want to consider putting some sort of plastic on them like the plastic sleds that roll up the kids slide on or one heck of a wax job.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I know, horses can be a pain. I have a 16 month old Filly (Percheron-Belgian) who I just had to get back on the right side of the fence again. Not so bad in the daylight but I've had to get her out of the road at 3AM on several occasions too. Danged teenagers:)
Gator has the dimensions correct. A conventional sap sled is the same width. Runners are generally 2 to 3 inches wide and 3 to 4 inches high and they are clad with metal on the bottom to prevent the wood from wearing out. The traditional ones are cast iron and some are flat while others have a raised area in the center to do as 3rd gen suggests (prevent side slip). Usually the "toe" of the runner is up-swept about 4 inches to help it slide over impediments. A sap sled runner is usually as long as the box on the sled. The runners are connected together by "beams" that are about6 or 8 inches off the ground. The closer to the ground, the less lift for each pail of sap. If it is too close to the ground though, it might cut in enough to drag bottom. The number of beams between the runners is dependent on the length of the box. I'd think an 8 foot box should have at least 3 beams under it.
I think a sled will work fine on frozen roads but will be a problem as it begins to thaw. Oh, just thought of another problem we encountered when using a sled behind a tractor. Since a standard sled is narrower than the tires on a tractor, the sled will run to one side with one runner in a wheel track and a second in the middle between the tracks so it will tilt all the time. Perhaps this could be alleviated by building a sled the width of your tractor rather than the standard size. Hope this makes some sense.
Doug

[gator330]

Doug,

Do you think 6 feet is to wide for the box? Would five or four feet wide be better? Four wide by eight long would make it easy. a cage tank would fit nice. If one was to put a 3/4 sheet of treated ply down for the floor. There realy wouldn't be much to building a sap/wood sled other then strapping the iron to the rails. I think a dump box with 12 volt pump into the tank would solve the problem of lifting the bucket.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Most of my woods racks are about 4 feet wide. This helps you get around in tight places better. I personally use my bob sleds to gather with. Mine are the type that have the back bobs connected to the front via crossed chains, not the pole type. Always heard the pole type backed much easier.
Another reason to keep the sled close to the ground is they can become top heavy and tip more easily. I use a tote sometimes for collection and had a pump system to fill as you suggested. I did have problems where the road was sidling and the tank was full. Learned to gather that area with an empty tank.
I have one sled that I built the front bunk about 6" wider than the back bunk. I always load my pole wood with the big end to the front. It is easier for the horses to start a load with the heaviest weight on the front bunk.

[gator330]

I think I would rather the bobs as the front bob turns with the pole. Never drove a team on a sled. Not shure how well it would turn. I'll have to check out a few before I start building one.

[KenWP]

All this talk about horses and were all going to be Amish in a couple of years. Then we really will be doing things different.

[gator330]

KenWp


Any Amish were you are? Bet not there scared their horses will get eaten! Sorry, had to say it.

[dschultz]

Ken
There is NO WAY you would see me living the life style of an Amish

[C.Wilcox]

gator / doug-

Thanks for the info! Just what I was looking for. One more question, how does the sled hook to the horses/tractor? Is it as simple as a rope tied to the front of each runner or is there a better way to do it?

[gator330]

With a pole for both, just the pole is a little diffrent at the end. Go from runner to runner with something sold I would use steel with a brace V shaped to the pole the tractor pole will have an end you can drop a pin in and will pull the sled forward and hold the sled back. For horses the pole only hold the sled back. They pull with the tugs on there harness.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

You need to have a way of hooking that will prevent the sled from over running you if you stop fast or are going down hill. With the horses it is a pole that is held up by the neck yoke. It serves to steer the sled as the horses turn (the longer the runners, The harder it turns) and it holds the sled back by transferring forward pressure on the pole to the Breech strap around the horses back end, thus enabling to "hold back" the load. With a tractor you would need a regular tongue.

[gator330]

Or what Doug said.

[KenWP]

I grew up my whole life in a Mennonite community but there were only a couple of familys of actualy Amish the rest just never had radios and TVs. There are a few French Mennonites here but few and no Amish. Ontario has a big Amish community. I get hell every time I bring up the horse eating bit. Actually not many horses here maybe they all got eaten.

[C.Wilcox]

Alright guys, here's my progress on the sap sled so far. The runners are white ash and are about 2" wide and 3" tall. The cross beams are hackberry and are 3" by 3" square. That should be plenty strong enough to support all the sap I'll ever have access to. When done, the sled will be 64 1/2" long and 38" wide. The wheels on my tractor are about 70" apart so maybe the sled will track directly behind the tractor and not fall into the tire ruts, but we'll see. I'm not holding my breath. The other question in my mind is whether the width of the runners will be adequate to support up to 800 pounds of sap. Guess time will tell. I still need to put the deck boards on, some side supports, a tongue, and the runner protection. I know iron is traditional for runner protection, but I was thinking I might try splitting some heavy duty PVC pipe lengthwise, heating it up so it's pliable and molding it to the bottom of the runners. IF it works it should be more slick than iron, lighter, and still have fairly good wear resistance.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Looks very nice and very well thought out. Let us know how it works!

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Looks Good! The runners should be lots strong. Ash is a traditional runner wood. With a runner the weight is spread across the entire length so you limit the stress. Runners usually break from turning or twisting. The idea of plastic shoes sounds good. Like the polyslick floors they put in trucks and manure spreaders. Added advantage would be it will not freeze down as hard between uses (this problem can also be limited by throwing a stick down and pulling one runner up on it when you park).

[KenWP]

Will PVC pipe stay pliable when cold or does it shatter. I like puck board or even a kids crazy carpet for plastic bottoms on a sled.

[C.Wilcox]

Will PVC pipe stay pliable when cold or does it shatter. I like puck board or even a kids crazy carpet for plastic bottoms on a sled.

Good question Ken. I guess we'll find out. What exactly is a kid's crazy carpet? And by puck board do you mean the plexiglass they use to keep the puck from flying into the stands or is it something different?

[KenWP]

Puck board is the white plastic sheeting they line the rinks with. A crazy carpet is those cheap plastic sheets of plastic kids use that roll up. The puckboard will take so much abuse its not funny. I have used truck loads of it to line the walls in pig barns.

[HHM-07]

How about wide or duel tires on a tralier?

Dick

[3rdgen.maple]

I am no expert here on this topic but 2 inch wide runners holding 800 lbs of sap i gotta believe are gonna sink fast. If you are in any kinda of snow it would probably be like pulling a drag behind you. I have cross country skis that are 2 inches wide and 6 feet long and being under 200 pounds I sink on them. But like I said I am no expert it is just a thought for you to consider.

[gator330]

By the looks of it your one the right track!!!! I'm afraid that your making it to nice and may not want to drag it through the snow and mud!!!! If so bring it over and will do it for you. I would use steel on the runners, I think it is the most durable way to go. I have my sleigh all set up. I take it apart to store it in the barn for the summer. Hope to hitch this weekend and have some family and friends over for doenuts and hot coco and a sleigh ride through the fields of snow. I'll be the one with a flask. Not going to Verona this year going to have to make that a every other year trip like Empire Farm days. I think your doing a great job on the sled!!!!

[Haynes Forest Products]

How well will it handle a side load when it slides sideways and hits a rock? Looks to good to use. Steel runners so you can rip it over rocks. Hit the angle edge with a belt sander for smoth transition.

[gator330]

The steel should be about 4 inchs wide and have ridge down the center. about one inch by wide and 3/4 deep. It won't kick sideways The steel on my sleigh is about an inch wider each side of the runner and is no joke been in place for 80 years or more. Was Great Grandpas sleigh.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Yes, the runners will sink in the snow and the cross beams will drag snow when it is deep. But....what you do is break out the road ahead of time and let the snow freeze. Build your roads throughout the winter and keep going over them. Drag will be little problem. Just like with the cross country skis. Travel an established, packed trail and you don't sink. Even being the second person in line on fresh snow, you sink much less.

[C.Wilcox]

Guys,

Thanks for the compliments, ideas, and the concerns. It's helpful to have the many opinions/ideas. I've never built a sled before so I'm not sure how well it will work out, but I'm hoping to get it done soon so I can take it out for a test run and still have time to make any necessary modifications. Seems that there are some pretty strong arguments for steel runners so I might just bite the bullet and go that route unless I can find some of the elusive "puckboard" that Ken mentioned. Seems that making the skids wider than the wooden runners as Gator explained would also help give more "float". I'm thinking I might put some angle iron on the bottom leading edge of the cross beams to protect them against ice chunks or tall stones and am going to put in some cross bracing between the beams to prevent racking from side loads as Haynes mentioned. The next question is, do I give it a proper paint job or will that just ensure I never actually use it for it's intended purpose? :)

[Logscaler]

It sounds like puckboard is strong and washable. Where can I find it?

[C.Wilcox]

It sounds like puckboard is strong and washable. Where can I find it?

Based on some online searching I did it appears that puckboard is HDPE plastic, the same material they make cutting boards from. I checked and both Grainger & McMaster sells it, but depending on how much you need you might want to go to a wholesaler.

[gator330]

As nice as that wood looks I would varnish it. Help keep the moisture out as well. A thin pin strip in red and varnish, poly or even true oil would make it sharp and preserve it very well. I always thought it funny how the sleigh and other older eguipment had nice long thin pin strips on them. Must have used real good paint in those days there are still some that show up on my sleigh. exept there black. I realy do think steel would be best but the poly board would be fine too. Looking forward to seeing it finished. Make a few and you could sell them under the classified ads.

[KenWP]

I buy puckboard from either lumberyards or the farm supply places. Up here both have it in most places. Now in French puckboard would be rondelles planchard but I bet they don't call it that much. It is similair to cutting boards and some of it has both a rough and a smooth side depending what you want it for and some is smooth both sides. The 1/8 inch stuff is not all that expensive and would make a pile of runners.
I would bet the old paint on the sleigh that lasts so long is lead paint which withstands the test of time.

P.S. The other name for puck board is arena board and I found dozens of web sites that had it listed in the US.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Nice flat bar for the runners and the skeg on the runner can be made from round stock. Make sure that you put the flat bar on first and then wrap the round stock on and curve as you go. Dont over weld and if you run over roads the round bar will wear out and can be replaced.

[Big_Eddy]

A couple of things to think about -

First - I don't know what kind of road you're pulling on, but I usually end up with about 8" deep tire tracks through the snow and a hump in the middle - what is going to happen when one runner drops 8" into a tire rut? I've tipped a 100gal trailer tank onto its side - not something one person can right on their own until it's drained. I'd have built the sled the same width as the tire treads, and made the arch higher to clear the hump. That way the runners track in the tire treads and it won't be as prone to tipping. Please be careful - especially if you have helpers walking along beside collecting sap.

Second - runner size.
As a rule of thumb, equipment with less than 1.5 pound per square inch ground pressure won't sink into soft earth or packed snow (Gators, excavators, golf green equipment etc.) 3-4 psi is the typical range for ATVs etc.

Doing the math for 100 US gal tank at 800lbs, 200lb sled weight and runners at 64" long.
(800lbs+200lbs) / 1.5 psi = 667 sq in /(2*64) = 5.2 inches wide.
So runners at 5" wide would run on packed snow without issue.

Your tractor is likely running >5psi ground pressure - so even at 2" wide those runners will float over anything the tractor makes it through - if you run them in the tire tracks.

HDPE (puck board) is often available free from your local arena. They have to replace the boards from time to time when they get damaged. You might want to show up at the local arena with a couple of bottles of syrup and see what you can arrange. It's less likely to freeze to the ground than steel runners and breaks free easier if it does.

[C.Wilcox]

A couple of things to think about -

First - I don't know what kind of road you're pulling on, but I usually end up with about 8" deep tire tracks through the snow and a hump in the middle - what is going to happen when one runner drops 8" into a tire rut? I've tipped a 100gal trailer tank onto its side - not something one person can right on their own until it's drained. I'd have built the sled the same width as the tire treads, and made the arch higher to clear the hump. That way the runners track in the tire treads and it won't be as prone to tipping. Please be careful - especially if you have helpers walking along beside collecting sap.

Second - runner size.
As a rule of thumb, equipment with less than 1.5 pound per square inch ground pressure won't sink into soft earth or packed snow (Gators, excavators, golf green equipment etc.) 3-4 psi is the typical range for ATVs etc.

Doing the math for 100 US gal tank at 800lbs, 200lb sled weight and runners at 64" long.
(800lbs+200lbs) / 1.5 psi = 667 sq in /(2*64) = 5.2 inches wide.
So runners at 5" wide would run on packed snow without issue.

Your tractor is likely running >5psi ground pressure - so even at 2" wide those runners will float over anything the tractor makes it through - if you run them in the tire tracks.

HDPE (puck board) is often available free from your local arena. They have to replace the boards from time to time when they get damaged. You might want to show up at the local arena with a couple of bottles of syrup and see what you can arrange. It's less likely to freeze to the ground than steel runners and breaks free easier if it does.

Big Eddy,

Great thoughts on this topic. I also am concerned about the sled drifting over into the tire track and tipping. While I'm holding foolish hope that it won't do that on the straightaways I know that it will almost certainly drift, especially on corners. I think what might save me is that we typically don't have much snow left in March around here. We usually have some, but not a lot so the ruts left by the tractor really shouldn't be too deep and I don't think they're going to be substantial enough to tip the sled. If the ground gets real sloppy I may just have to park the tractor up on solid ground and walk to and from the buckets. In which case I'll be working on a new collection process for 2011.

Based on other comments I was planning to go with a 4" wide runner and it sounds like that's in the range of what your calculations prove out. A bit narrower than ideal, but still better than the current 2" width of the wood itself.

The final dimensions of the sled were actually determined by the dimensions of the lumber I had available in the shed. I didn't want to buy any more until I knew whether the whole idea was going to work. So if this experiment turns out I'll probably build another that's the same width as the tractor tires. I'll be sure to post the results.

[gator330]

Wilcox,

Is the sled done??? If so did you try it yet??? Hows that team of horses coming, better get them soon.

[C.Wilcox]

Progress on the sled has been a bit slow lately. I've been working on the tractor I intend to pull it with. I had taken the entire rear end apart last fall in order to put in new bearings and seals and the pieces and parts were scattered far and wide. Nothing like trying to put rear axles and housings back in place in 0 degree temps (unheated garage). Turns the grease into glue. Still waiting for some gaskets before I can fully reassemble. I did find time to put the deck boards on the sled, so now I need to get the metal for the runners and tack it into place and put on a hitch. I'll try to post some photos this weekend.

[valleyman]

Just a thought. What about skis attached to the bottom. I made a sled to haul my ice fishing supplies and the skis work great. I realize that its much much lighter load than the sap.

[gator330]

Progress on the sled has been a bit slow lately. I've been working on the tractor I intend to pull it with. I had taken the entire rear end apart last fall in order to put in new bearings and seals and the pieces and parts were scattered far and wide. Nothing like trying to put rear axles and housings back in place in 0 degree temps (unheated garage). Turns the grease into glue. Still waiting for some gaskets before I can fully reassemble. I did find time to put the deck boards on the sled, so now I need to get the metal for the runners and tack it into place and put on a hitch. I'll try to post some photos this weekend.

ONE MORE REASON TO GET THE TEAM OF DRAFTS!!!!!! Took me longer to get the tractor running this morning then it would have to hitch the team and drag a few logs with them. I think I would have been less angry as well. :)

[NH Maplemaker]

My son inlaw made real nice sled with an old pair off wooden water ski's for his bob house (ice fishing shanty)! The sled is very heave duty! He just put a narrow strip of wood down the center of the ski for a skeg. Maybe someone has already had this idea .Jim L.

[C.Wilcox]

ONE MORE REASON TO GET THE TEAM OF DRAFTS!!!!!! Took me longer to get the tractor running this morning then it would have to hitch the team and drag a few logs with them. I think I would have been less angry as well. :)

Bit of an off-topic question, but what breed of drafts do you have?

Skis might be a good temporary fall back option if I don't get to the metal runners in time. I'll have to see if I can find an old pair.

[gator330]

Percherons Two grey mares here and we have a three gelding hitch over to dads, two black and one steel grey.

[Haynes Forest Products]

C.Wilcox Sounds like you put the sled before the tractor. :lol:

[KenWP]

In the winter we used to park the tractors and never ran them until spring again. We used to put the wagon box on the runners for winter and vice a versa in the spring.

[C.Wilcox]

Finally managed to get time to pick up the steel runners and drawbar from my dad this past weekend and finished up the sled last night. The runners are 1/8" thick, 4" wide mild steel and are bolted through the wooden skis to keep it in place. The drawbar is solid 1" round and is held in place by a short segment of gas pipe pinned in place on the inside face of each runner. Nothing elegant, but hopefully it will work. I have to add chain to the drawbar yet, but I didn't have quite enough laying in the shed. It seems pretty sturdy when I try to torque on it, but I guess the real test will come when it's hung up on a stump or frozen to the ground somewhere. It was a fun project and I'm looking forward to seeing how it works.

[SOUS SAP]

I made one recently out of some old 210 CM skis I had that were collecting dust for a while. I used 2 x3 wood and some plywood and sized it to hold the coolers I am collecting with. First year flying solo on " sugin" and this has helped. Plus my two kids love going for sap sled rides in the yard.

[junkyard]

Runners should radius rather than sloped

[junkyard]

Runners should be radius rather than sloped

[junkyard]

Around here that sleigh would be called a jumper. Many have been made of the butt log that grew on a side hill with a sharp sweep. cut in half with a chain saw. when the wood wore out throw it away and build a new one.
if you keep it dry it will last a long time. It would be called a wood shod jumper. Much of this technology has been lost over the years.
Junkyard

[C.Wilcox]

Runners should be radius rather than sloped

Well, having used it extensively this weekend I can say that sloped runners work great as far as I'm concerned. Maybe radiused runners would work just as well or better, but having never tried a sled with them I can't say. I used it to haul several hundred board feet of white oak lumber through 6" of snow like there was nothing there. Surprisingly, even with a couple of hundred pounds of lumber on it I can still drag it through the snow by myself.