rice coal burner

[jrthe3]

i talked to a guy today about a rice coal burner on my evaporator i was wondering how many btu you guys think i would need to fire my 3x8

[maple flats]

Not sure but you could guess if you know how many pounds of wood you burn in an hour. Then look up the BTU's based on the species you use. A close calculation could be make. On the other side you would need a way to remove the coal at the end of a boil because coal would last way too long for a burn down. Come up with a removal and way to extinguish the burning coal if you try using coal. On the plus side coal is cheaper than any other purchased heat source and has a lot of BTU's. Good luck

[KenWP]

How much coal would you need. At $7:49 a 40 lb bag you might need a bunch of it. My next guestion is what kind of way do you burn it. I am wondering if it works like a pellet stove or a corn or wheat stove.

[Dennis H.]

Holy Cow $7.49 per 40lbs!!!! that is something like $375 per ton.
We use rice coal to heat the house and we get it at $160/ton then again I am right there in the hard coal belt of PA.

I am also curious if it would work I asked this same question last year and didn't get very many replies. The thing is that the major manufatures are not going to even look into it because they are nowhere near cheap coal supplies to make it worth thier while to spend $$ in R&D.

My thought on it was to use the stoker out of a coal stove and put it in where the door would be on the evap.

[TapME]

my question is how long would the coal burn when you shut down and would your sap last that long?

[KenWP]

It should not burn at all since it dosn't actually have a lot of coal in the fire area at any given time. It's 5/16 by 3/16 in size so you cant use it like regular coal with a grate. It feeds in and burns rapidly.

[jrthe3]

ken i just pick up a pellet today it was 60 fifty pound bags for $330 but i may have a line on a place to buy it bulk for 100 dollars a ton if i truck it does any one know what size oil gun i would need to fire a 3x8

[jrthe3]

dennis i am going to build a burnner if i get it to work i let you know it will prob be after the season

[Dennis H.]

How long will it go once shut down? Well on our coal stoker it uses a forced draft. Without the fan running it will only last about 15 minutes before you would have to re light it.
I have my stoker boiler set up that once the water temp is good it goes into stand by mode which is 12 minutes off 3 minutes on. I found that any longer off and any shorter on times the fire will go out. You have to remember that without the fan there really is no fire it is just the hot coal sitting there waiting for more fan to get it running.

I think the biggest challenge will be making grates that can handle the temps. It seems that when it comes to stoves they are listed as wood only of wood and coal, I believe it has to do with the types of grates.


From my stand point if they can make an evap that uses pellets and biomass then there should be no reason why using coal wouldn't work.

JRthe3 keep us posted.

[dschultz]

I'd like to try coal,but the place's I've called to try and see where I can get some they have no idea were I can get it or who to contact.
I'd like to try some mixed with wood in my intens-o-fire and see how it works.

[jrthe3]

dennis does the one you have use the peace of cast iron looks like a ramp point down with a peace of flat steel pushing the coal i was thinking of building that ramp out of 1/2 or 3/4 or maybe 1 1nch thick steel depends on what i can round up



i think i going to shut for about a 160000 to 180000 btu any input here think that will be good

[maple flats]

Jrthe3, Unless it is cast iron it will not take the heat. Do a test burn with some with water in the pans, get it going full speed for at least an hour to get the bricks fully heated and then time the boil after the you stop adding coal.
I grew up with a coal stoker boiler (back then, 1970 or so, it cost us $100 for 10 ton delivered in CNY) until our supplier told us that rice coal was no longer available (apparently HE dicided not to carry it, not the coal companies at the mines). Back then if we had a power outage we had to go down cellar every 2 hours and turn the auger feed a few turns by hand with a special tool that was a unique spanner wrench while the fire was still hot enough to light the newly added coal, which was fed from the bottom. My guess based on that is that to shut down you might need more than 2 hours, maybe even 3 or 4. Looking into the burning pot just before turning the auger the fire was getting smaller but not by much.

[KenWP]

The burner for rice coal on the new stoves works a lot different then a boiler does. The one I seen had a cup in the middle that the coal feeds into and a blower and a ignitor. It had a intense flame all the time it ran but just stopped burning when you turned it off as the flame box is air tight with out the blower on.

[twobears1224]

HOMEMADE blacksmith FORGES USE A BRAKE DRUM.if you wanted to build your own coal burner maybe that could be the cup it burns in or a cast iron frying pan.

delbert

[jrthe3]

that is an awsome idea i never thought of a fring pan thanks
i talked to a friend he know alot about metal working he thinks that regular steel would hold up because of the air that is blowing threw it would keep it cool but not to run it for to long with out the air on

[Maple Ridge]

I have a rice burning stove, and I think that that would work. I would think that one would have more than one feeder system for differant sections of the pan. That way you could control the heat better. It burns hotter than wood, and once the feeder is set all you need to do is fill the hopper. It is constant heat. You can purchase components from the manufactures like Alaska stove to make your own.
There is a foram on coal burning with all kinds of information like this site.
I will see if I can find it and post it here.

[vtsnowedin]

You should check the paperwork that came with your pans. Some will say that any use of coal voids all warranties.

[Dennis H.]

Here are 2 pics of the stoker that I have in my coal boiler. It is a Harman stove.

The grates are made of cast iron and they are sort of like an arch. Each one is about 4" wide and there are 2 grates side by side.
I can adjust the feed rate by adjusting a rod that sticks out the left hand side that adjust the travel of the pusher block.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Just curious why burning coal would harm the pans, maybe Dr Perkins can chime in on this one??

[KenWP]

When you burn coal you creat different chemicals which when mixed with water vapor creat acids which can eat away at the pans. Sort like when you leave soot on the bottom of the pan from season to season only worse.

[Dennis H.]

Coal ash is very acidic for what I have been told.

I have been told adding wood ash to the garden is good, I never heard of adding coal ash is good!

Also I have been told that you do not want to put coal ash on your icy paved driveway, but wood ash is ok.

I can't see anything going wrong with stainless pans as long a they are cleaned.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I think most people leave the soot on their pans from season to season. The key is for it not to get wet or be in a moist enviroment where it can bond with moisture and create lye.

[Hurry Hill Farm]

Gentlemen,

On a visit to VT to the equipments dealers last April, I observed one of them (not leader though, may have been a CA co) using a wood pellet stove to fire a VERY large (maybe a 5 x 16) evaporator. Hopper was on the back and was feed through a tube (like the worm of a candy machine) all the way to the fire box under the rig. The outfit had a firebox with several blowers and was really tight, insulated and managed. I inquired about the use of rice coal as an alternative (as I own a 60,000 btu Alaska to heat 3,000 sq feet maple museum and only have one shoveler on at it has been 53+ degrees - one 40 lb bag per day). We talked quite awhile and the guy did not seem concerned about the coal acid (because the burner [ie grates] is not even close to the finish pan). Am returning this spring with several bags of rice coal - a commodity not readily available in VT - to let them try it out.

I like the idea since I use rice coal, and do not cut my own firewood (I play piano and can't play with nine fingers very well!) Have discussed this with a couple scientist/sugarmakers and we have come to some untried conclusions:
it is a great idea, but it would take FOREVER to get the fire and boil going (maybe 5 hours), and it would take FOREVER to shut down because the firebrick would be really hot and how does one manage that? and lastly you have to put ALOT of air to it and the arch has to be ultra tight. I do not have electric at my sugarhouse and certainly don't have an air-tight evaporator. For example, Canadian elec companys burn pulverized coal - lots of fast, controlled heat and air. I don't think my concept is dead, but there are lot of hurdles- and am still investigating.

I do think that on a small rig - 1/2 pint - or homemade barrel arch with pan, it would work well and you could control it, but have some doubts about my 4 x 16 leader special in the middle of the woods.

Would like to hear comments from you rice coal enthusiasts this season and hear what you have to say.

Jan Woods
Hurry Hill Farm
Edinboro PA
800 taps
4 x 16 leader special
no lights, all wood fire, all buckets, 3000 sq ft maple museum

[Dennis H.]

Fire Brick??

Why would you need the evap done up in fire brick anyway? I would think ceramic blankets would work just fine. Since you wouldn't be monkeying around in there like a wood fire evap you wouldn't need the durability of fire brick.

Right now I have a homemade barrel evap and once this year is over and if I decide to upgarde to a larger evap I might temporaly take the stoker out of our boiler in the house and try it in my barrel evap. It would just take me making an adapter plate for where the door is.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If I was going to burn coal, I would start the evaporator with wood and mix regular house coal in with the wood to get a good consistent heat. Coal burns very hot and without a lot of smoke once it ignites, so I would guess the evaporator would boil tremendously. At the end of the boil, you would have to have metal/steel bucket to shovel out whatever coal is left.

Dr Perkins, do you have any insight on this??

[twobears1224]

FYI:i was watching a show on bricks and they talked about how bricks used in coal stacks had to be very acid resistent.coal smoke is very acid and would eat the bricks otherwise.

delbert

[maple flats]

Fire Brick??

Why would you need the evap done up in fire brick anyway? I would think ceramic blankets would work just fine. Since you wouldn't be monkeying around in there like a wood fire evap you wouldn't need the durability of fire brick.

Right now I have a homemade barrel evap and once this year is over and if I decide to upgarde to a larger evap I might temporaly take the stoker out of our boiler in the house and try it in my barrel evap. It would just take me making an adapter plate for where the door is.
I would test that. I have a suspicion a coal fire would exceed the 2300 degrees ceramic blanket is rated for. Research it or test it to be sure.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

My parents heated their house for 25+ years with a stove that burned regular household clean coal. Sometimes is was small gravel size, but most of the time 1 to 3 inches in size and sometimes as large as 6 to 8 inch pieces. The stove had regular firebrick and they used the same stove for as long as I remember and never replaced the firebrick and it would get so hot sometimes that the steel frame of the stove would turn cherry red in spots inside the stove jacket but it never burned up anything as far as the stove or firebrick.

[KenWP]

Coal burns way hotter then wood does. Oak wood burns at around 1200 degrees and coal burns around 2800 degrees. You can get a perfect coal fire with antracite up to almost 4900 degrees. Fire bricks for wood fired evapoartors seem to be rated at 2500 degrees and ceramic blanket is 2300. So your pushing the extremes of both with coal. Coal for it's weight also give off more heat. The values seem to be about a 3rd for poor coal and double for antracite.
The one problem I see is the crap that coal puts into the air compared to wood. If your exhausting out side your okay but anybody cooking outside is going to get a lot of crap in the syrup that will not filter out. I can see that there is a lot more that can happen to the pan when useing coal compared to wood just from the chemicals in the coal let alone the heat.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Perkins, do you have any insight on this??

Nothing beyond pure speculation.

[Beweller]

I grew up in a house heated by a coal fired space heater. It had no fire brick. The construction was cast iron with a sheet metal jacket. In cold weather, the "pot" would run a dull red. It worked for many years.

I do recall seeing other coal fired space heaters that used fire brick, but I had no experience with them.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I burn mainly locust and red oak and I see stack temps as high as 1800 degrees 6 to 7 feet from firebox.

[KenWP]

!800 degrees F is roughly 1000 C.