maple grove

[lmathews]

How do you get in touch with maple grove?

[paul]

you call them at 802-748-5141, but why would you want to call them? they all but shut out US syrup this year.

[maplecrest]

you know in a year a lot can happen. a year ago maple grove was buying any thing any size from anyone for 4 dollars a pound. now look at what is going on not buying us syrup at all

[Homestead Maple]

you know in a year a lot can happen. a year ago maple grove was buying any thing any size from anyone for 4 dollars a pound. now look at what is going on not buying us syrup at all
Wow! They must not label anything that says "Pure Vt. Maple Syrup" then. I had thought that that was what they were all about. Must be they sell maple syrup and no particular state mention on the label. i had heard that when syrup was scarce, they were blending syrup for Cracker Barrel and Cracker Barrel had no trouble selling it that way, so everything Cracker Barrel sells now is blended. I suppose buying all Canadian, saves having to deal with so many small suppliers.

[maplemat1]

bruce @ bascomes is always buying the good US of A syrup all the time even from the little guy and will save you a coulpe hours of driving.

[KenWP]

Just read the Maple Grove web site. They advertise sugar free maple syrup. We now know where that weird syrup Theron makes goes for. Pretty soon their going to have powdered maple syrup.

[DrTimPerkins]

Just read the Maple Grove web site. They advertise sugar free maple syrup.

Actually, they advertise "Maple Grove Sugar Free Syrup" with "Maple Flavor".

It would be illegal for them to put the words "Maple Syrup" anywhere on the label of this product.

Tim P.
UVM PMRC

[Dave Y]

Their labels used to read "product of US and Canada"

[Brian Ryther]

I called Bascoms today to see if they were buying syrup now. The woman who I spoke with said "we buy syrup all of the time." She said they are giving $2.50 for com. You cant beat that.

[jlemieux]

How do you get in touch with maple grove?

Don't worry about that, they won't call you back anyway. I live in St. Johnsbury and I couldn't give them 5 gallons of C.

[WF MASON]

I'm glad this post came up, I have ten gallons of dark dark syrup a customer dropped here for me to take to Maple Grove, last year I dropped syrup there for several customers for the $4.buck a pound price. I did get a notice several weeks ago from them or their parent company, I assume anyone who sold them syrup did , saying they operate in a(please excuse my lack of spelling) 'ecthel manner',gifts given to or recieved from employees can not excide ex dollars ect ect. What I gathered from it was Jerry was suppose to be 'wineing and dineing' clients for them to sell their syrup to Maple Grove, so right away I felt screwed. Or Canadain 'clients' can't supply Jerry with a new red Hummer each year for buying their syrup. Thats how big business works I guess.
The syrup I have here I'll haul to Bascoms.

[Mark-NH]

Bascom's is so easy to sell to. Show up during business hours anytime and they will buy what you have.

[Fairfield Sugarmaker]

Has anyone heard if Dave Marvin at Butternut is buying any syrup either? Any prices floating around out there?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I don't think we should be so hard on Jerry, he is only an employee that works for a company just like the rest of us and has to do as he is likely told or on commission and taking clients out to lunch just like all the drug reps, other sales, reps, etc. Jerry has been a great help to a lot of people and more than willing to help. I think MAPLE GROVE SHOULD GET THE BAD RAP, NOT JERRY.

[WMF]

There should be no bad rap at all. Maple Grove is in the maple business and the maple business is driven by supply and demand. Right now The supply of Canadian syrup is good and must be the price is right.
It continues to amuse me how some producers think that someone or some company is obligated to buy their syrup.

[WF MASON]

I never had any problems selling syrup there , the guy who bought it was a vermont native and always customer friendly.
Sorry , I was trying to pick on Jerry with a little bit of humor, I certainly hope he got a laugh out of it................ Unless of course he is actually driving a red hummer from Canada, then maybe not.

[maplecrest]

as i have thought about this thread over the last three days. haven king comes to mind. as i sat there at leader and listened to him tell us that no longer will they take syrup in galv. drums. and not too add anymore taps. never in my mind at the time, did i think that they would not buy anymore syrup from the U.S.since i had taken syrup up there and got 4 a #.and get the letters from them.i believe now that the whole time he sat there he knew that and did not tell us. but instead was saying not to expand and buy stainless drums. while canada is growing in taps to feed his supply.to walk in that warehouse a year ago and see how much syrup was in there with the season soon to start made me wonder what the price and the demand was going to be come april 1st.and maple grove was not buying by the end of the season

[WMF]

If there is even a hint of good production this year the bulk price is going to drop closer to $2 per pound across the board.
This will be a good year to maximize your efficiency and make syrup as cheap as you can versus making the most that you can.

[220 maple]

I will not be shocked at all if the bulk prices drop, Is it not true that Wisconsin producers made a bumper crop that some could not sale to the bulk syrup buyers last spring. With the new check valves in the woods and everyone of them increasing volume just a small amount, I should be able to here the prices falling from my hillsides in West Virginia. I just plan on winning this battle with more retail syrup. As Brandon and any other West Virginia Syrupmakers knows we don't make enough for are retail base. There is something special about are syrup when it's in a West Virginia Jug. I know it's not as famous as Vermont syrup or any other syrup made in the New England States and Canada. The difference is volume. All the West Virginia syrupmakers together don't make 5000 gallons annually. Supply and Demand that my hope for this season.

Mark 220 Maple

[jlemieux]

Haven King was the man I was told to get in touch with at Maple Grove and he is the one who did not return my multiple calls. It is just too bad when you live in the same town you couldn't sell your product to them. It is more of a conveniant thing. I would love to sell to bascom, just got to plan a road trip.

[DrTimPerkins]

With the new check valves in the woods and everyone of them increasing volume just a small amount,....

There are probably at least 55+ million taps put out between the U.S. and Canada. There will be maybe 3 million of the Leader Check-Valve spouts put out this year. Probably not enough to make a dent in the supply....yet.

What I hear is that the markets are still quite strong and demand is still growing despite the big crop this past year. Probably that is because there is essentially no strategic reserve in Quebec as of this past year. Unless we get another huge crop, I suspect prices will remain about the same. Only time will tell.

And if you think the CV spout will revolutionize the industry.....just wait a few years.

[tom jr.]

sounds like you got something up your sleeve dr. perkins :D
can you give us a hint ?

[NH Maplemaker]

I know! How about fiberoptic built into every maple pipeline and tubing system, Have it carry UV to every tap holes! Tap holes will be kept sterile and will not dry up for the entire maple season!! Remenber you heard it hear frist!!JimL.

[syrupkid]

i personally dont think us in wisconsin will have any kind of a good season this year after the bumper crop we had last year one has to think that this year will not yield as much sap or as good of sugar content last year my uncle here got and im not embellishing the story here 138 gallons yes gallons of syrup out of his 200 trees granted his woods is usually pretty high production woods but still i personally think if i cook for 350-400 trees this year i will produce 80-95 gallons of syrup this is just my rookie prediction though and i could be wrong (like alot of the time)

[DrTimPerkins]

sounds like you got something up your sleeve dr. perkins :D
can you give us a hint ?

At this point I cannot comment further. Sorry.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Either way, we look forward to what you will come up with next and it will more than likely be beneficial to many producers.

[farmall h]

jlemieux
Evidently Haven is Maple Grove's one and only buyer and he keeps wierd hours. Last year I tried to get 4-30 gal drums from them. They only had 55's. Did get the drums but it takes longer to fill them and by that time the price changed dramatically. Have you tried the folks that bought "Bucky's" just outside of Barton/Glover? From what I understand they make maple candy and such.
ps: How many taps you folks have on the hill?

[markcasper]

Reading this thread brings a few comments. Yes it is/was true that there is alot of syrup sitting around Wisconsin yet. I am one of them! It is true that many producers were unable to market it bulk this past year, me being one of them. I understand that many had to get on the "sign up sheet" to sell to the packers.

There are a few things to consider.

1) Wisconsin produced 200,000 plus gallons, a mere record setting crop, the highest ever and up from the normal 110,000-120,000 gallons.

2) There has been installed, over the past few years, more vacuum systems than at anytime in history. (This is unchartered production territory.)



3)Tapping is more attractive since the lumber markets have fell into the gutter.

4)There are huge property tax breaks in Wisconsin for tapping a woodlot. This has happened all within the last 8-9 years. Before that, there was no tax break.

5)The huge price increase in bulk prices sent new people flocking to get into the syrup business, and this continues on this year.

6)I have heard from a very reliable packer that sales are holding there own if not increasing a bit, due to people not eating out as much. They are staying home and for the price of a night out for a steak, they can buy a gallon of syrup which will last a long time.

7)If bulk prices drop and the newbies start not breaking even, thats gonna slow down the expansion like shutting a light switch off. Then a bad year comes along, and it could create another roller coaster like we have all seen. I personally know of one young, newbie producer that thought he had the world by the tail. He was a laid off in the winter concrete worker who spent 1000's a year ago. He didn't own a tree. He now has been permantly laid off, had a huge debt going on in the vast dream of making $$$$$$ it in syrup. Now he lost a big woods after torking the landowner off. Not a good situation, and you know there are others out there like this.

8)I bought 700 cv's today and will begin replacing. I am convinced that there will be extended sap flow, especially at the end of the season. But thats a big problem right there. In my opinion, alot of the increased syrup made from the sap of these adaptors is going to be very low quality. It was tried on like 12000 taps. Thats nothing compared to the 3 million or whatever that are going to be going in. We will all be able to witness a wide geographical summary of the performance of these spouts within 90 days.

If there gets to be too much of this low quality syrup out and it doesn't have a market, then its as good as not being made in the first place.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Never really thought about that for the end of the season. I believe that there will be alot of low quality syrup, which will probably make the cv adapter and and that extra week of sap running not sound as good as what it really should be. But we will see. Some poeple like to make mud.

[802maple]

This is the first that I had seen this thread, I guess I was out riding around in my new Hummer to much, what you guys missed though was the new Porsche LOL.
A good share of you know I no longer buy for Maple Grove, but I am trying to become a buyer for another packer, whether that works out is still to be determined. I became mixed up in that we aren't going to buy from sugarmakers that saved our butt issue that many of you mentioned and therefore I left them. I just don't operate that way.
I will answer some questions that have come up here though. I heard why don't they use just Vermont syrup? That reason is if they bought every drop of syrup that Vermont made it wouldn't begin to fill there orders, for that matter if you added in Maine, New Hampshire and New York it wouldn't do it either. It is much easier to get it by the tanker load from Canada all blended and ready to go.
Another question that I can respond to is the added amount of lower quality syrup that is directly attributed to the small spout technology and and new spout replacement. I personally had in the range of 20 percent more of the lower quality brought to me from this technology alone. I know that this will be the first grade shutdown if there is another bumper crop.
As far as prices go this will be a very interesting year depending upon the crop size.
From my experience if there is another bumper crop, sugarmakers better not let grass grow under their wheels getting to their most popular packer as they will be for the most part be done buying by the end of May
An average year you can expect it to be like this year and below average to poor the ceiling could be the sky, who knows.
My Hummer is nearly warmed up, so I must leave

[DrTimPerkins]

To put this into perspective, this was the first year in many decades that most of the maple producing regions had a bumper crop, including Quebec. It was the best crop in Vermont in 65 years (since 1944). The largest variable affecting that increase was probably the weather. Mother Nature was extremely good to us. The U.S. crop was up by 22%, but the tap count was up by only 4%. Vermont averaged about 440,000 gallons over the past 10 years: in 2009 we produced 920,000 gallons (an increase of 30% over the previous year). Estimated tap count went up in Vermont by 5.6% over that 1 yr timeframe. The biggest factor was yield per tap, which increased by 26.3% last year. Some of that might have been due to better equipment and installations....but it is unlikely that is the dominant factor.

Technology will help to offset very poor seasons, and may make higher yields possible, but unless we get weather that is as good as last year....we're unlikely to match that number again.

Only time will tell though. Ask again in May.

[DrTimPerkins]

I believe that there will be alot of low quality syrup, which will probably make the cv adapter and and that extra week of sap running not sound as good as what it really should be.

In the last 10+ days of our season last year, when the 3 other systems had basically shut down, we were only collecting from the CV equipped system. Because that was only 25% of our operation, we didn't have enough sap to boil every day. Yet we still made A-Med or A-Dark until the very end. What we found is that rather than just trickling in low quality sap, the CV equipped system ran hard enough to flush all the crap out of the mainlines each day, so the sap that ran in still produced good syrup....even when we boiled only every other day.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Thats good to know that you still made good syrup.

[DrTimPerkins]

Thats a very interesting concept. We have all been talking for years, its the trees that makes the sap go bad from the getgo, but maybe just the sun/heat beating on the equipment.

Trees can make the syrup go bad (buddy), but more often late in the season it is bacterial overload caused by heating of sap in the tubing system under very low flow conditions.

[802maple]

Last year was an extreme year in area of production and it also had another extreme where most everyone made real good syrup right up to the end. But last year was out of the norm for that. I must clarify what I ment about off flavored or bad syrup though. I over the last ten or so years have found much more buddy syrup being made due to the fact that they can until it turns ropey and many sugarmakers will even take that challenge due to packers buying it for what ever reason the last couple years. Most of the time that syrup should be put into the catergory of substandard and not bought , but as I explained on the other thread it isn't always that easy..

[DrTimPerkins]

If substandard syrup is produced, it can often be turned into sugar. With the high temperatures required, most of the bad flavor compounds are volatilized off. So there is a use for even the crap.

[802maple]

Some bad flavors can be taken away by boiling under vacuum also as Maple Grove has experimented with that. But there is still not a replacement for starting with good tasting maple to begin with no matter what you use it for.

[markcasper]

Dr Tim,

It makes me bust laughing to see you using words like crap, especially with your academic background.

It is a good thing-----to know your just like the rest of us.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Tim,

It makes me bust laughing to see you using words like crap, especially with your academic background.

It is a good thing-----to know your just like the rest of us.

I didn't go to school my whole life (it only seems that way). I don't swear much, but if the need dictates, I can usually manage alright (in english or German -- had to pass a foreign language to get my Ph.D. -- now the only German I can remember is what I learned in the pubs over there).

What I don't understand is why Ken used the term mersh rather than merde. Maybe it's a slang conglomeration of the French/English terms for crap (mer** + sh**). Maybe Ken can enlighten us further?

[Squaredeal]

Parce que Ken est pas français. Bien que la merde est un plus approprié

[DrTimPerkins]

Parce que Ken est pas français. Bien que la merde est un plus approprié

C'est vrai. Je comprends. Merci.

My apologies in advance. My French is even worse than my German.

[KenWP]

I used mersh since everybody else does. I wouldn't use the other term on a public forum anyways. I was swearing in french one day and the other english fellow asked why I would swear in french when english had better words. Like I told him most english swear words are not fit to be said anywhere.

[Russell Lampron]

Dr Tim, "Mersh" is slang for commercial syrup.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Tim, "Mersh" is slang for commercial syrup.

Yes, I realize that. I was wondering what the origin and derivation of it was.

[heus]

"Mersh" comes from com-mersh-al (commercial).

[DrTimPerkins]

"Mersh" comes from com-mersh-al (commercial).

Ah....that makes sense. Thanks.

[Russell Lampron]

Heus got it right.

[maplwrks]

MERSH---Pennsylvania Fancy!!! Right Theron????

[Clan Delaney]

"Mersh" comes from com-mersh-al (commercial).

Well, there goes my therory (http://mapletrader.com/community/showpost.php?p=97082&postcount=42). It's all so clear now.

[Russell Lampron]

I like that. April is Mersh Season.

[Amber Gold]

I like Dr. Perkin's idea of combining MERde and SH**...more fitting to what it really is.

[markcasper]

We really should not be so hard on ourselves here about good old mersch. Very bad mersch is undetectable in the master cleanser. Its also virtually undetectable in beans and bbq sauce.

In comparison to all of the food additives and preservatives that are known carcinogenic, we all should be calling that stuff chit.

Mersch is still natural, even if it isn't that good of quality!

[TapME]

Russ; didn't the Royalmaple come up with the term Mersh? Just like your "boiling soda'. Just want to give credit where it's due. Now to find a new word for Penn. fancy.

[RileySugarbush]

I just won't make the stuff, but I am not in the business commercially and just don't have any incentive to push on. The first whiff of buddy sap makes me feel sick, and since I don't use tubing I don't usually have any problems until the tress bud.

One observation on those packers that blend it is that there isn't anything else you can use to stretch syrup if you want to label it 100% pure maple. Blending in some C let's you pack and sell more and apparently you can get away with that. Most here have sampled some bad store bought syrup. It's sad that that can give some people a bad impression and I wish it wasn't done. But much of the public buys on price and blending makes it cheaper.

It is very satisfying to hear compliments on our syrup tasting so much better than store bought though!

[maplecrest]

been reading all these posts and i will say out of my 30 years of making syrup. that not UNTIL i started useing new plastic every year did i boil late season sap. it would roll over and burn. to back up Dr. Tim for the last 4 seasons i have boiled a good b on my final boil. not to say that c syrup was not made during the season. and only made 2 bad tasting drums out of last season. and that was in march when it hit 70 here one day. for you that are on the edge of weather to go for new plastic or not. be the cv spout or clear 1/4. you will get your investment back and then some. every word he has told you is true. if it cost 2 drums to buy the spouts you will get 4 drums back

[PerryW]

you will get your investment back and then some. every word he has told you is true. if it cost 2 drums to buy the spouts you will get 4 drums back

While you (might) may make an additional 4 drums of syrup, you must include the following:

1) The cost of processing the additional 5,000 gallons of sap must be figured in. You will spend more time, fuel, and more electricity processing this additional sap.

2) Additional syrup will most likely be sold at the lower bulk prices (or additional retail markets must be developed).

3) The additional syrup is most likely lower quality or commercial syrup and will be worth less. Retail sales will be unlikely for this lower quality product.

4) Extending the season makes clean up more difficult as the late season sap cooks in your lines. You will also be putting more hours on your equipment.

5) The additional sap flow from the New plastic will be less likely if we have an early season.

And most of all, The Yankee in me makes it tough for me to throw away perfectly good plastic when my 20 year old spouts seem to work fine. For me it's easier to tap a few more trees if I want some more sap. THen I get more good sap; not more bud run sap.

[Russell Lampron]

Jeff did those 2 barrels have an off flavor or were they just too dark to call Grade B? If it was because of the color that is where the new grading standards will make it a product that can be sold retail therefore making it worth more money.

I take advantage of the new technology as much as possible and I can see the results. Getting 19.2 gallons of sap per tap last season out of mostly red maples on vacuum was an eye opener and my old section of woods shut down a week and a half before the new stuff did. If I was using CV spouts I could have done even better than I did.

[maplecrest]

russ that 2 drums was just bad smelling and tasting syrup. was the end of that hot period in march. a neighbor of mine was by when i was boiling and he tastes every thing every day i told him not to taste that syrup the look on his face was priceless. we washed everything it froze up and we went back to making good tasteing syrup until april 18th when we stopped. three years in a row we made a light good tasting b to the end because of the new plastic

[DrTimPerkins]

1) The cost of processing the additional 5,000 gallons of sap must be figured in. You will spend more time, fuel, and more electricity processing this additional sap.

How is that different than processing the first 5,000 gallons? With that mentality....why sugar at all? Most of the costs of production (other than fuel and electricity) are fixed and not dependant upon how much you process (your tubing system, evaporator, sugarhouse, drums, etc.). They cost you whether you're making syrup or not making syrup.


2) Additional syrup will most likely be sold at the lower bulk prices (or additional retail markets must be developed).

Doubtful that even a few million spouts will have that kind of impact on production. Last year was basically a record year -- we're unlikely to see that again for a while (could happen...probably won't). If we don't have enough syrup to sell (the problem two years ago), the price per lb of syrup goes up for the producer at first (yea!), but then markets contract and prices plummet (boo!). There is now only about 3 million gallons in the Federation Strategic Reserve. There was something like 50 million pounds 5 yrs ago. Marketing isn't the biggest problem at the moment, but it is important. The Federation has already set the floor prices for 2010 syrup...and they don't seem to be dropping.

What is wrong with people making bulk syrup? You seem to be focusing only on the retail end. Lots of people make bulk syrup and actually make a decent living doing it. Nothing wrong with that.


3) The additional syrup is most likely lower quality or commercial syrup and will be worth less. Retail sales will be unlikely for this lower quality product.

This was not our experience. Because it ran harder through to the end, the syrup was good quality to the last day we boiled. Typically we will make some B syrup or even commercial at the end.....we didn't make any last year.

Even if more B or Commercial is made...what is the problem with it? There is a definite market for this stuff (it just isn't mostly retail) as a flavoring agent for all sorts of products. A good amount of maple syrup is sold this way.


4) Extending the season makes clean up more difficult as the late season sap cooks in your lines. You will also be putting more hours on your equipment.

And you know this how? Sap "cooking" in lines for another week is harder to get out than sap the week or two before....really?

Again...how is this any different from a normal season. More hours on equipment that is used for only 4-8 weeks a year. Personally, I think people would be thrilled to put another week or two on the equipment they already had to pay big $ for to use for just a short time. That's kind of like saying I spent a lot of $ on this tractor, so I don't want to take it out and get it dirty. It doesn't cost you any more after you've plowed and got mud on it than it does sitting clean in the barn....I'd argue that it cost you way more just sitting there being unproductive.

If you don't like getting your sap lines or evaporator dirty....why even bother firing it up? Don't tap your trees at all and sit in the sugarhouse all season admiring the clean shiny metal. It'll still be nice and clean at the end of the season and no dirty sap in your lines to contend with. That line of reasoning makes absolutely no sense to me at all.


5) The additional sap flow from the New plastic will be less likely if we have an early season.

The early season has little to do with it (although the CV spout does help there). The end part of the season is more important. I readily admit that if the season ends abruptly (3-4 days of very hot weather), then new plastic and/or the CV aren't going to help a lot....they should help some, but not as much as they will in a typical season. Then again....they might help a lot if we get a protracted season. Which will it be? Nobody knows until the season is done....either way you're placing a bet. But the bet you suggest (not changing anything) will only just break even at best most years. The alternative bet (new plastic) won't do you any worse than your bet (not changing anything), but might pay off quite handsomely.

I am sure there are people who will have good experiences with any new adapters or the CV adapters or the clear straight adapters, and there will always be people who won't. Lots of reasons for this. The biggest is the weather....not a lot we can do about that one. But if you do use the technology right, you should see decent results.

Now I do agree that the recycling part is important. Plenty of good people working on that effort, but it'll take some time.

I apologize if the above seems a bit harsh...but we've gone over this several times already. Read the previous posts. If you don't want to use the newer stuff....don't. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy them. If you make all the syrup you want and sell all you want....great....don't change a thing. But don't knock the people who do try to improve their production. If they're willing to invest the time and $ to double the normal production to make half a gallon of syrup per tap....great. If anyone actually wants to try to make more syrup....they should consider making whatever changes they think might help and decide for themselves.

[Squaredeal]

Gotta love a fact-filled smackdown

[Clan Delaney]

Gotta love a fact-filled smackdown

Let's back up. This is an exchange, not a battle. :)

[DrTimPerkins]

Let's back up. This is an exchange, not a battle. :)

My apologies if I've offended anyone. Not my intention.

With that, but totally unrelated, just wanted everyone to know that it is very unlikely that I will be reading or posting to the list for the next several months. The sugaring season is just too time-consuming with research for me to spend time here. In addition to working, my wife (an accountant) and I run the Vermont Odyssey of the Mind program (as volunteers), a creative-problem solving competition for school kids. We've got 150 volunteers and 115 teams (5-7 kids and 1-2 coaches per team) coming to our tournament....which happens to be in early-March. So all my time for the next few months will be devoted to work and volunteer activities.

Please don't take my lack of response as anything other than I'm too busy right now to monitor the list for subjects of interest.

In any case, best of luck to everyone on the upcoming season. Hope to see you again on the other side (late-April or so).

[Squaredeal]

I don't think that it is a battle at all. However, I love a heated exchange and appreciate when knowledgeable individuals use their expertise to dispel myths.
IMHO, as long as the rules of the forum are honored, it is never wrong to respectfully disagree.

[Hop Kiln Road]

Maple operations come in all shapes and sizes. What might make good sense for a 3,000 tap operation doesn't necessary work for someone with 300 taps. For instance, while the RO's are extremely effective, they are also inefficient since they sit idle 90% of the year, so the higher the volume of sugar it produces the better. Likewise marketing a limited amount of syrup to a relatively high end market calls for difference decisions than simply servicing a bulk market.

However, before PMR signs off, I am interested to know if long term studies are underway to determine any change in tree mortality with the long term use of high vacuum. Putting 25" of vacuum to a 12" tree and having an internal portion of the bole under negative pressure for 6 weeks, day and night now with a check valve, has to have more of an effect than 3 gravity taps, which none of us would do.

Oh, and I've got 2 gallons of C- if anybody wants it. Like Perry, it doesn't make sense to me to make it but if I were MapleCrest I sure would.

Bruce

[markcasper]

[QUOTE=Hop Kiln Road;97623]Maple operations come in all shapes and sizes. What might make good sense for a 3,000 tap operation doesn't necessary work for someone with 300 taps. For instance, while the RO's are extremely effective, they are also inefficient since they sit idle 90% of the year, so the higher the volume of sugar it produces the better.


HopKilnRoad,

You maybe did not mean it this way, but I respectfully disagree. I at one time said "absolutely NO WAY will I ever own an RO." Did I eat my words! Saying an RO is inefficient is no different that saying your evaporator is inefficient. Actually my RO is much more efficient and they both sit idle 90% of the year. On a per gallon of sap processed cost, the evaporator is much less inefficient as the RO requires much less labor and is semi-automatic. (I can be doing other things, gathering more sap...etc) while the RO is in operation. When one considers the huge decrease in the amount of labor to put up all that firewood, the RO is about the most efficient thing in the sugarhouse. I guess I am a bit confused....my corn planter only gets used one week out of the year, along with a plow, disk, combine. I have a cattle trailer that only gets used a few times out of the year. Because of the time used, are they all inefficient?

Since the whole maple operation sits idle 90% of the year, except for sales, and is therefore inefficient, why even do it?
I was considering a new sugarhouse with a 5 or 6x16 evaporator. It would have cost 75,000 dollars at least, and still that would have only doubled, or slightly more my capacity. I opted out of that idea, for about $22,000, I built a small insulated addition, RO, wiring, and tanks and it basically tripled my capacity. That was much more efficient for me.

It saved me last year! Considering my off farm employment, theres no way I would have been able to do it without it.

[PerryW]

Dr Tim, I'm not offended but you missed (some of) my points:

If you invest $1000 on new plastic each year and make additional sap because of this investment; You can only figure the value of the additional sap made (NOT the value of the additional syrup). The sap cost money & labor to process. It does not boil itself down. This is simple economics.

Also, if your retail market is fixed; your additional syrup made will be sold at a lower bulk price. More bulk sales means a lower average price per gallon. Again, simple economics. Unless you have NO retail sales your average profit per gallon would be less. There is certainly nothing wrong with making bulk syrup (did I say that?), but bulk syrup is sold at a lower price.

Now I'm not going to argue whether late season sap is just as good quality because I've made great tasting fancy even after April 15; but I believe this is generally the case, and bud run is certainly more likely later in the season.

re washing: And even if the sap doesn't cook in the lines; It's certainly less enjoyable to be washing out tubing with the heat and black flies. The sap in the lines certainly appears more slimy and this glop seem more likely to clog the tees in my lateral lines.

Anyway; no hard feelings. Just wanted to clarify

[Hop Kiln Road]

markcasper - we are talking at cross purposes; you are absolutely right! 1400 taps and you have to have an RO. No argument. But if you had 300 taps, the RO equation is different. I am trying to make the difference between effectiveness and efficiency. So yes, the RO is effective and econonically efficient in a 1400 tap operation, but it is only effective (not economically efficient) in a 300 tap ooperation.

The bigger point is how research is conducted and funded in our capitalist (loaded word) model. Conventional thought is bigger is better; except as we all known, something isn't right.

Maple production peaked in 1840? That wasn't because of technology; it was because of economic necessity.

We are all dependent upon the up coming weather, regardless of our systems!

Bruce

[PerryW]

Dr. Tim,

You really should go back and read my initial post because you misunderstood much of it. Most of my points had nothing to do with the new spout technology; they regarded the economics of an annual investment in any technology that increases sap yield.

(the Doctor says: ) I apologize if the above seems a bit harsh...but we've gone over this several times already. Read the previous posts. If you don't want to use the newer stuff....don't. Nobody is forcing anyone to buy them.

I have read the posts on the subject and I have not disputed this data. BUT the costs of processing the additional sap must be included in the equation. The sap does not gather itself and magically boil itself down.


(the Doctor says: ) If you make all the syrup you want and sell all you want....great....don't change a thing. But don't knock the people who do try to improve their production. If they're willing to invest the time and $ to double the normal production to make half a gallon of syrup per tap....great. If anyone actually wants to try to make more syrup....they should consider making whatever changes they think might help and decide for themselves.

Absolutely, but they need to run the numbers for their operation and and realize that (for example) the additional syrup produced will most likely be sold at the lower bulk rates.

(the Doctor says: ) This was not our experience. Because it ran harder through to the end, the syrup was good quality to the last day we boiled. Typically we will make some B syrup or even commercial at the end.....we didn't make any last year.

You seem to be basing your comment (about late season syrup) on just last years season. For an economic decision about future sap production, you must base on an average season; not an unusual season that had great sap weather at the end.

Now I have not even touched upon the fact that you seem to be taking as much as forty gallons of sap (1.06 gallons per tap) from each of these trees with high vacuum, new plastic and the new check valves. It remains to be seen how this impacts the health of our trees.

[driske]

Much to ponder. Dr. Morselli had reservations about high sustained vacuum many years ago.
Subjective experience being my guide, I feel confident in pushing forward until I witness some negative effects on tree health. ( This will be our 29 th season with some type of vacuum, starting with a sapsucker and currently using liquid ring pumps) Trees look OK. Even the little ones.
Dr. Tim, Thanks for all the great insights. Knowledge is power, and your words offer plenty of both. Best wishes for a good sugaring season and 3 cheers for all your family does in other civic roles. All the best until late April, early May.

[802maple]

I would love to get in this conversation, but seeing that my nearly 20 years of buying syrup and seeing the additional amount of late season buddy syrup that has been made over the last 10 years doesn't count, I will stay out of it.

I find it interesting as I have been told that the Federation has set a written in stone price for this time of year as that has never happened either in my forty plus years of sugaring. It is true that there is only 3 million pounds in reserve in Canada, but what they are fogetting and almost anybody that is trying to sell their bulk can attest to, accept for Bascoms most every packer is not buying right now. They have told me that they have enough in storage at most of these plants to get them through the summer.

Okay so lets we have a banner year again as it often happens in 2's and we went from not having enough syrup two years ago to having a surplus that will run over into another half year this year, and they say it will not drop the bulk price, that will be another new one. I was told last year at this time on here that I was nuts if I thought that with a big season even that the price would drop from 4.00 dollars a lb because the world market would absorb any surplus we could make. Well what happened, I think it dropped by over 25 percent. The best thing that can happen is we have a average year at best is my opinion. But who am I to guess with my small amount of experience and knowledge. LOL

[driske]

802; Gotta run off to church now but will formulate a reply to corroborate your hunches. Something about Murphy's Law and a Wave theory is in the making.
Keep that Hummmer humming. LOL

[KenWP]

The federation price was set for two years. Last year and this year. They will have a price change for 2011 made later this year. Same with how many taps they will allow producers to sell from. If they deem they still need as much syrup they will keep it the same or raise it but if there is too much they lower it.
They do have some kind of quota for new producers starting up also. That way guys can get in there with a little bit of quota and then hope to expand.Farming in Canada is way different then the US as chicken,eggs,milk,and turkeys are controlled. Plus maple in Quebec. They tried pork back in the late 50,s early 60,s but it didn't fly.
There is also people like me who work outside the Federation and try and make a little money but your at the mercy of all the other guys on the road here that sell the extra syrup they have outside their quotas at the farm gate. I couldn't sell bulk if I couldn't sell bulk if I wanted to until I join the union and the federation and all that good stuff.

[heus]

Glad to be living in the good ol' capitalistic USA

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Glad to be living in the good ol' capitalistic USA

But probably not capitalistic for too much longer especially if the people in power have their way.

[driske]

802,
Your cautionary words are well taken. For producers who have been around 2 decades plus, the spike in bulk syrup prices of the late 80's was a boost. The crash of the early 90's was sobering.
There are parallels in today's market . Expanded technology, more taps to be set, a carry over of product in the field, etc.
Those factors are in place and empirical. What is harder to quantify, but equally relevant is the insistent nature of large harvests of Maple Syrup to come in a back to back manner, or even a wave of 3-4 better than average years. Often a dearth will follow, and several years of marginal production will occur. Hence the roller coaster of price volatility continues.
I'll invoke 2 corrollary's of Murphy's Law here. #1. Nature is A Mother. #2.The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlamp of an oncoming train.
The stage is set for the perfect storm. If production of a fat crop occurs the oldest law of economics, supply and demand, will decree a price drop.

[markcasper]

You are so right Brandon!

The currency exchange rate has a big effect on keeping prices higher, or at least stable in US. The higher prices don't buy any more as far as equipment goes.

Steve Anderson told me on Tuesday that the price of syrup WILL NOT GO DOWN, no matter how big the crop, but that he wasn't buying until after the season. I did not ask him to put it in writing.

[802maple]

I hope Steve is right, time will tell. Meanwhile make all the golden nector you can.

[gmcooper]

802,
Jerry, I really appreciate you input and thoughts on the maple world! 40 years of knowledge is worth quite a lot.
A lot has changed in the 20yrs we have been making syrup and I'm sure it will change over the next 20 as well but I sure don't want to forget what happend past.

[lmathews]

I was just given a price of $2.15 a pound for C,and $2.40 a pound for B.Do you feel as that is a good price?
Thanks Lee