"HOT" new pan idea

[Jim Schumacher]

Has anyone ever made or even seen an accordion shaped sap pan? By “accordion” I mean a piece of thin stainless five foot wide by five foot long bent back and forth into a pan that is only 2 feet wide by five feet long. It would be a very easy pan to make and should evaporate at least as fast as a flue pan. (Why not?) I will list the positives I see in it as well as the negatives. Please give me your input constructively. I am seriously considering making one, and would like to run it past some pros first. I made a quick sketch to show my idea in a visual.

Positives:
1: Very easy to make in comparison to a flue pan.
2: Exposes a huge area of sap to heat.
3: The shape of the pan should make it very rigid.
4: Dividers could be easily added to the tops of the ridges.
5: Due to the little welding that is required, very thin material could be used.

Negatives:
1: Hard to drain between the ridges

[jrthe3]

looks good but looks to be very hard to wield an end cap and to get wield down in the point to get them to seal

[Haynes Forest Products]

I agree that you get more surface But you also dont have as much sap in the pan. I would be worried about the pan running dry:mad: As mentioned welding that could be tricky might have to go to the radiator method and solder it.

[WF MASON]

In the drawing that looks like a raised version , early on before I could bend a flue I made a drop 'V' pan , it worked ok, the raised like you show would need to be capped and space at the ends for sap flow just as a flue pan would have.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Seems to me that somewhere in my maple history lessons, I learned that something like this was the predecessor of the modern flue pan.

[Rhino]

Jim, That pan idea is exactly how our piggyback pan was made, just that it has the copper air tubes running along the v channels. A buddy of mine who lives in Thorp Wi. would be a good person to ask about the welding part of it and also the function part of it. His name is Mike and his number is 715-669-3059. I will give him a call just in case you decide to call him.

[3% Solution]

Jim,
Extend the bottom down below the bottom of the pan about 6 - 7 inches and you'll have yourself what appears to be the first cousin to the "Max Pan".
Make one of the bends in the middle come up further, as a divider.
Do it Jim, do it!!!

Dave

[Jim Schumacher]

Remember that the end caps will have the same contour as the pan itself, so welding the cap on from the outside of the pan will be a walk in the park. 3%, if I extend one of the "v"s up as a divider, wouldn't the section be a superheated surface sticking out of the sap?

[3% Solution]

Jim,
Yeah it would ............ don't touch it!!
If it's welded it's not going to melt.
The sap would slop onto it in a very thin layer and evaporate quickly.
It would be nice to have a divider, two section pan, with that configuration in both sections.
make a two section flat pan, make an insert as drawn, cut the bottom in each section, drop the insert in and weld it up.
Bend the ends of the insert to accept a cap for each end, then weld it up.
Are you a sheet metal guy or do you know one?

Dave

[Jim Schumacher]

I do the fabricating but have a profesional weld my stuff. Just to clarify, the only part on the pan that will be welded would be the end caps, there may have been some confusion on that. I have a huge peice of 20 ga. 316 stainless with a polished finish at my disposal. At only .0359" I can easily manipulate it to the multi-v shape that I have in mind. As I agree with someone, the shallow depth of the sap may be an issue, I could either reverse the v-flues so they drop down from the pan or I could make the walls of the pan deeper. What do you think?

[3% Solution]

Jim,
Can you do both?
Make the sides 6" deep and the "V's" drop 6" below the bottom and raise above the bottom of the pan 6".
Is this an option?

Dave

[tessiersfarm]

I built my pan in a similar fashion but my welder asked if I could put a flat on the channels for easier welding, I ended up with 3/4" flats top and bottom of each channel and I got an 8' sheet into a 2' pan. I am pretty sure there are some pics on my photobucket.

[The Birdman]

cap the ends put a 7 in edge around top. couple of deviders you just built your self a drop flue pan. same amount of welding and can do all welding from out side. Just my 2 cents.

[TapME]

looks like my flue pan that i boil with now. Has 4'' drops and goes end to end. the only difference is mine is 3' wide and flat at the dividers. it has 13 flues in it. have a twin to it that has 7'' drops.

[3rdgen.maple]

Im not quite sure how high your sides are gonna be but mine are like 16 inches on a drop flue with 7 1/2 inch flues and it splashes over the sides all the time. Might want to consider making the sides at a good height to hold the sap in.

[Fred Henderson]

That is the way the old Vermont evaporaters were made. "V" bottom flues.

[Jim Schumacher]

Rookie question from a guy who never ran a "real" evaporator... How do you guys end a boiling session? How do you utilize the last sap in the flue pan? Do you chase it out with water? You must add water to the flue pan to finish with the syrup pan, right? Which brings another question, do you chase the syrup out of the syrup pan with water? Or do you drain it out after the heat is killed completely? Thank you for your patience on this one, I think a lot of guys who batch boil on homemade rigs would be interested to know how this is handled.

Jim

[Groves]

I think a lot of guys who batch boil on homemade rigs would be interested to know how this is handled.

This is a true statement.

[3% Solution]

Hi Jim,
You are so right as far as the way I do it.
When the sap is gone in the head tank I put 50 or so gallons of water in it keep boiling.
When the syrup pan has nothing but water in it I'm done.
This is at the end of the season.

Dave

[Haynes Forest Products]

On the last day I drain the entire flue pan into buckets and shut the transfer valve and fill the fluepan with water and cleaner in the head tank and let er rip. I just keep boiling and dumping the sweet in until its all done. NICE HEAVY B GRADE:)

[dschultz]

On the last day,when the last of the sap goes out of the head tank,I start chasing with water.And when the auto drawoff goes down to 212 I'm done

[maple flats]

If you are asking about the end of the season do like Haynes Forest Products says, If you are asking about the end of any given boil, just let it set until your next boil. There will be enough sweet that it will not freeze solid if you concentrated enough to start drawing syrup, or even close to syrup.

[Jim Schumacher]

Why are the tops of the flues in a flue pan flat and broad while the bottoms come to a point?

[Haynes Forest Products]

My Waterloo Small has the same size both top and bottom about an inch. I would think its all about getting into the area to weld.

[Jim Schumacher]

Alright guys. The season is only seven weeks away and I don't own an evaporator. Now that I sold mine I have no other choice then to build one. Could someone please post a picture of their flue pan taken from the front? That would help me out a ton. Thanks.

[maplesyrupstove]

Here pictures of mine. Darrell

[Dave Y]

Jim,
There are currently some evaporators for sale in the classified section of this site. I would suggest you start making a deal on one of them!!

[Shagbark]

Hi Jim, I'll take 1 also lol.Your idea is a good one it closely matches classic wood boilers tank to improve surface area, your point I'm sure. Shagbark

[Jim Schumacher]

Quick, shoot some dimensions at me! How high are the walls on the flue pan for a typical 3x8 or 3x10 wood fired?????

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I have a welded Leader American drop flue pan and it have 15" side walls above flues.

[Jim Schumacher]

Thanks Brandon!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

You can't have the sides on a flue pan too high. My syrup pan has 11" sides and never had it to boil over, but the flue pan would splash over a little even with 15" sides and the top lid turned inward aprox 1". Not an issue with me having a hood on it.

[tessiersfarm]

I only had 6" sides on mine, big mistake, forced me into a hood. Actually a blessing in disguise, I love the hood and pre-heater.

[maple flats]

Mine has sides about 8" above sap level, I lose a lot even with a hood. Looking to make a deflector like Leader offers on a 2x6 they now have.

[smitty76]

Jim, when u getting an evaporator?

[Jim Schumacher]

Smitty, It is under construction now. The pans are being bent tomorrow and the material for the arch will be here later in the week. It will be a 3x8 drop flue similar to the original plan. A total of 20' of material will be bent to form a 3' wide pan. I'm hoping to run about 75 gallons per hour with blowers. Six weeks to go time.

[ryan marquette]

Jim what are you going to do for a syrup pan & floats?

[Jim Schumacher]

No Floats this year. The connections between the two pans will be made with pro-grip clamp fittings. For this year I will have a ball-valve between the pans, but a float box can be added later without changing the design of the pans. The syrup pan is a 3'x3', still deciding how many dividers.
Jim

[Jim Schumacher]

Here's the progress of my pan. Bent all of the material on Saturday, welded them together Saturday night instead of sleeping. It is very floppy and hard to move right now. The end caps will dictate the actual shape and will make it very solid. They will be a real pain to cut out though

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Jim,

It appears you have 15 flues on a 2' pan that normally has 8 flues. Don't have as much room for heat and gases, but I wouldn't want to guess how hard that baby will boil. Won't be long before it is time to try it out!

[Jim Schumacher]

Jim,It appears you have 15 flues on a 2' pan that normally has 8 flues.

It is going to be a 3'x5' pan

[lpakiz]

Jim,
Seems you could tack the ends on, including the parts of the Vs that will be waste. Tip it upside down and sawzall out the unneeded material pretty close. Tig the remainder of the material into the seam--done!! Consider putting a stream of "purge" argon into the upside down tank before and during welding to make the inside of the bead smooth.

Gonna check for tanks this week--I am guessing you want about 600 to 800 gallons??

[Jim Schumacher]

That is a good thought Larry, however, I don't have a tig welder. I was planning to cut them out to shape and MIG them, find the leaks, and touch up.
That is exactly the size tanks I am looking for.

[lpakiz]

The thought is the same--tack the end panel onto the Vs at each point, then use the "flues" as a guide to cut out the unwanted material.
Am I hearing "TANK" or "TANKs"??? Or total capacity of 800 gallon.

[Jim Schumacher]

Larry, I will not be too picky on tank size if we can find a decent deal. I would like a couple of 500 gallon tanks but would also be interested in a 600 or even an 800 if they present themselfs. Thanks a ton for checking into it for me!

[Jim Schumacher]

Here's the flue pan, semi-finished(not water tested). Four weeks to build a syrup pan and arch. Tic-toc, tic, toc.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Looks great. How many flues did you end up with and how deep are your flues.

[junkyard]

At the Maple Museum in Croghan ny ther is a very old pan as you plan to build how it worked I have no idea, as no one remembered using it.

[Jim Schumacher]

I finished my 3x8 Evaporator last week. It has a 3'x5' drop flue pan and of course a 3'x3' syrup pan. The float box is not built yet so we are going to have to be real careful boiling until it is complete. The Maple Hugger and I insolated and bricked it over the weekend.

-The frame of the arch is made of hot-rolled steel angle iron, everything else is 316 stainless.
-The stack is 15" diameter, built out of 26 gauge stainless.
-There are three powervent blowers supplying the draft, yes on a rheostat.
-The grates are made out of 5" cast-iron pipe split down the middle, then drilled.
-All connections are made with Tri-clover quick-connect fittings.
-180 degree reverse flow syrup pan
-The flue pan, if stretched out flat would be 24'x5' in 20ga material.
-$2800.00 invested, including insulation and brick.
-One very stressed out builder/operator
-Two very bloody/bruised hands
Jim

[lpakiz]

Ooohhhhh!!!!

[Z/MAN]

I finished my 3x8 Evaporator last week. It has a 3'x5' drop flue pan and of course a 3'x3' syrup pan. The float box is not built yet so we are going to have to be real careful boiling until it is complete. The Maple Hugger and I insolated and bricked it over the weekend.

-The frame of the arch is made of hot-rolled steel angle iron, everything else is 316 stainless.
-The stack is 15" diameter, built out of 26 gauge stainless.
-There are three powervent blowers supplying the draft, yes on a rheostat.
-The grates are made out of 5" cast-iron pipe split down the middle, then drilled.
-All connections are made with Tri-clover quick-connect fittings.
-180 degree reverse flow syrup pan
-The flue pan, if stretched out flat would be 24'x5' in 20ga material.
-$2800.00 invested, including insulation and brick.
-One very stressed out builder/operator
-Two very bloody/bruised hands
Jim
Jim, Nice job. It looks great.

[Jim Schumacher]

We fired the new 3x8 under water today to feel it out. The way it boiled was INSANE From the time we lit the fire under 40 degree water to the time it boiled in the flue pan was about 30 minutes. When it boiled it was jumping eight inches in the air on every square inch of the pan. After boiling a few minutes we shut it down. From start-up to the time we turned the blowers off was about one hour and fifteen minutes. 55 gallons of water disappeared. Guessing about 75 gallons per hour without startup time. Is that possible from a 3x8??
The flue pan was the first to boil, of coarse, But the boiling action in the syrup pan was a bit uneven. It boiled first in a circle in the center of the pan, the edges all around never boiled as hard. How can I correct this

[morningstarfarm]

it sounds like it burns like my 2x6 does. once the brick heats up in the fire box she'll even right out..at least it does on mine

[lpakiz]

AWESOME, JIM!! Glad to hear this. Talk soon...

[Haynes Forest Products]

Before you start changing things get some sap turned into syrup and see how the boil looks. Judging the performance with only water is like testing your dragster with street tires on it.

[dschultz]

Jim
Sounds like your going to have fun with the new evaporator.
Don't worry about the way the water boiled,once you get them sweetened it will boil all together differant.
75 gph should be no problem, if all goes right you could get closer to 90 gph