SapTank to CopperCoil pre heat Setup w/pic

[valleyman]

Hey guys,
I thought this might be helpful to see my set up for delivering sap to the rear pan. used the flex hose because I'm not sure the exact position of the sap tank yet. I may be modifying and go with all copper.

I got the bulkhead fitting w/gaskets from Atlanta Rain Barrels. Prices were reasonable.

http://www.atlantarainbarrels.com/

[3% Solution]

Valleyman,
Should work!
Just keep in mind you may get boiling sap in the tube if your really pushing.
Have a tee and a valve at the bottom so you can take off that boiling sap inside the tube if needed.
I didn't have a coil, had 1/2" pipe back and forth across the base stack and it would boil when we got to pushing things.
Just my two cents.

Dave

[valleyman]

Add a T after the coil before it goes into the pan? To divert the hot sap into another bucket and add it back in later? Not sure I'm following you. I'm still a novice here.

I was figuring I would close off sap flow at the tank.

After doing all this I started reading all the downfalls of boiling sap in the tube. Didnt even think that too hot was a problem.

[3% Solution]

Valleyman,
Your right on with my thoughts.
Worked for us for 7 years like that,just have to know the warning signs of the boiling sap; like snapping pipes and BIG bubbles in the head tank!
No downfalls, jus got to pay attention!!!!
It will get hot in there!!!!

Dave

[Jim Brown]

Valleyman; You may want to think about using copper the whole way as the copper connections will get hot enough to melt the plastic tubing.

Just a thought

Jim

[valleyman]

Hi Jim,
Yeah, that thought crossed my mind afterwords. Once I know where my Sap barrel will be for the season, I'll go all copper. Man, this is a costly learning process but loving every minute of it!

The kids will understand if we skip a couple of meals to help fund dads project.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I have been running boiling hot syrup thru the clear braided flex hose from Home Depot for 6 years. I run all my filter press syrup thru it right from the boiling finisher into the press. I have had to cut the ends off at the fittings every so often due to seperation from kinking when hot. I never had a leak or bulge from it getting soft from the heat.

[lpakiz]

And anyway, the incoming sap will be cool (in the flex tube) as long as it is flowing. If it stops, you have several problems...

[Sugarmaker]

Valleyman
:) my kids missed so many meals they have all moved out over the last 10 years:)

Chris

[Maplebrook]

Vallyman,
This type of preheater will work, but like others have posted already, know the signs of boiling sap in the tubes. I used the ours for 3 seasons.
I would put the valve at the lower end of the preheater. You want the tube to be full of sap and heating it rather than run a trickle through hot copper and risk scorching. That said, a valve at the tank is good too. One can't have too many valves!
When I fired up, the preheater would be empty until the boil was going good and it was time to add sap. I'd open the tank valve and let the sap make it's way through the hot tubing. It would cough and spit until the incoming sap cooled the tubing down. I'd catch the burned sap in a dipper and chuck it. After that, adjust the valves at the pan and you were in business. If you slowed the flow too much it would boil in the tubing, hence the suggestion by 3% for the diverter tee to let boiling sap by.
I've attached pictures of our old set-up. It was 2 - 25' lengths of 3/8" copper with shut off valves at the lower ends. It was joined to the 3/4" supply line by plastic tubing. Never a melting problem, and they saw boiling sap more than once!
Good luck!
Darren

[KenWP]

I put valves at the bottom end also to control the flow to match the time it took to heat the sap to a reasonable temp. I used the back and forth pattern for the tubeing due to people telling me I would have to remove it when I ran out of sap. I also seemed to have miss read the tube size and used 1/2 in tube my first go around. Just try and weave 1/2 inch tubeing back and forth to fit a stack. Looked like a mess and never could get it to fit tight.
My next effort will go around the stack and if that dosn't work I am going to set up another stove like I ended up doing last year to heat sap to add to the evaporator. My extra stove was just made out of a metal 5 gallon pail with a large ss pot sitting on top and worked well to keep sap hot. Just had to cut tiney wood to fit inside the 5 gallon pail. I found a large pressure tank this year so that I can make a bigger perheater stove if need be.

[3% Solution]

KenWP,
I used 1/2" copper pipe and a number of 90* elbows.
It was as wide as the base stack and about 12" high.
Attached it to the back of the stack with 1/2" pipe strap, then I covered it with a piece of aluminum flashing I bent up.
Oh yeah I put a piece of 1" arch blanket between it and the cover.
It worked real well.

Dave

[Grizz747]

I am going to use my 120 quart cooler that I use for fishing for my holding tank. The outlet is threaded and I am attaching a bathroom sink supply line and valve to that outlet and then attach that to my copper wrapped around my stack and a valve at the bottom where it enters my pan. Now I have to figure some way to let me know when the cooler gets low so I can fill it up. Just trying to make good use of my current supplies. I also have steam tray pans from last year and am looking on how to incorporate them into my system. I am ordering a 27x48 pan from Andy Wenger.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Put the cooler on a plywood base that has 2 springs on the oposite side as the spigot and when it gets low on sap it will lift up so all the sap emptys and you can see that its getting low. Or just put a T in the drain side with a piece of clear tube as high as the cooler and you have a site tube. Now back to the springs as the cooler tips you can put pullys and a tip up flag from you ice shanty to let you know when your in the DANGER ZONE:lol:

[Grizz747]

Haynes, thank you for the spring idea. This is my second year and this sight has been outstanding for ideas and as addictive as syruping itself.

[KenWP]

You can also make a simple ball float that get lower as the sap runs out. The less stick showing the lower the sap level.

[jtthibodeau]

Although I'm using a 15 gal. beer keg instead of a cooler, I've attached a float switch to the interior of the keg. As the level drops, the float switch turns on a 12 volt pump to refill the keg from my storage barrel. And, of course, when the float switch rises, it turns off the pump to keep from over flowing the container.

In case your wondering, the top of the stainless keg was cut with a plasma cutter. A 3/4 +/- inch hole was cut into the bottom and a threaded brass fitting was installed to allow gravity flow to the pre-heater. The keg is hung from the roof rafters and one side rest against the stack.

"If you want to know the easiest way to accomplish a job, just ask a lazy man."

[gator330]

Q. What size copper tube would work best for this type of pre-heater. I'm thinking it's 3/8 soft.

Q. Can you rap it around the stack to much? Or are a few trips around enough to warm the sap.

[Haynes Forest Products]

You need to be carful not to overdue it so you dont build a sticky steam cleaner.:cry:

[gator330]

3 or 4 trips around or more like 6 or 8??? tight to the pipe or leave it off some??

[KenWP]

From my experience the 6 or 8 would be better and then if it's not hot enough wrap some insulation and then a peice of tin around it. It all depends on how fast you boil as to how hot the sap will get. Also the hotter the sap is coming out of the preheater the faster your total boil will be because your not cooling it down as much with colder liquid.
My fist boil was with out a preheater on a 16 by 18 pan and by luck it was just water and I figured out real quick that pouring cold sap into that pan was going to frustrate me really quick so I had some kind of a preheater made real quick before i got real sap to boil. I still had problems with the sap not being hot enough and cooling down the boil until I was heating the sap then putting it in the preheater to get it hot as possible. 165 degrees or more seemed to work the best for me and I was only boiling 3 gallons a hour tops.

[Maplebrook]

Gator,
Regarding your questions,
Q. What size copper tube would work best for this type of pre-heater. I'm thinking it's 3/8 soft.

Q. Can you rap it around the stack to much? Or are a few trips around enough to warm the sap.
I used 3/8" tubing. I took a 50' roll, cut it into 2-25' lengths, and rolled it loosely around a 7" pipe. My stack was 8", so when the coils were slipped over, it was fairly snug fitting.
See my pics in post #10 of this thread.
I may have some other pics if you want or can take a new picture if you want specific detail.
Darren

[gator330]

Darren,

Thank you, I wasn't shure what size to get. Do you have two lines feeding the evaporator??? Looks to be 18 loops around the stack. My stack isn't that big but could add more loops if I raise the head tank. I take it the sap gets plenty hot by the time it comes out. Thanks again

[KenWP]

He is also feeding a bigger pan so will use the sap faster as it goes thru the tube. If it gets to hot it vapour locks and also spits and jumps and sputters as it goes to steam inside. Not that it ever happened to me more then a hundred times. It used to bubble back into the head tank even on me. And that was useing 1/2 inch tube on part of it also.

[C.Wilcox]

Ken-

Did you every try adding an inverted "T" just upstream from the coils to help with the vapor lock issues? It would need to be taller than the sap level in the feed tank to avoid head pressure just pushing the sap out through it, but I'm thinking that it might help with some of the vapor lock and spitting that comes with this type of approach. Really, I'm just waiting for you guys to perfect this so I can steal your design later.

[gator330]

so you think if it is vented between the head tank and the coil around the stack that it wouldn't vapor lock.

[maple flats]

Why not try something like Johnny Cuervo made? Look at this
http://flickr.com/photos/57535094@N0...7601539320490/
Someplace on here there is an old thread where he tells how he made it. His can control the temp by hooking or unhooking the springs to regulate the temperature.

[gator330]

Flats,

Thanks but every time i go to flicker or photo bucket it won't display the page for me?? Shure it is a cumpter glitch on my end. I'll have to try to figure that out. In this game we play a picture is worth a thousand words. Brian

[KenWP]

My idea is if I could ever find such a critter is a back flow valve just off the head tank. Then it can only flow one way and would keep pushing sap down. Might not work but it's a idea. I am also wondering what is in the bottom of a coffee maker so that water only goes into the pot and not into the reservoir. I had a power surge or something and just burnt up a coffee maker and a toaster and I am looking at the water heater coil out of the coffee maker for ideas.

[C.Wilcox]

My idea is if I could ever find such a critter is a back flow valve just off the head tank. Then it can only flow one way and would keep pushing sap down. Might not work but it's a idea. I am also wondering what is in the bottom of a coffee maker so that water only goes into the pot and not into the reservoir. I had a power surge or something and just burnt up a coffee maker and a toaster and I am looking at the water heater coil out of the coffee maker for ideas.

Ken- If I understand you right, I think this idea will cause you more trouble rather than less. If the steam backs up in your coil and can't exit into the collection tank it's going to cause serious vapor lock. It has to have somewhere to go if the sap is going to continue flowing. I don't believe the weight/pressure of the sap pushing down will overcome the vapor lock unless you actively pump the sap through the coil. Hence my question about adding a "T" to the line. I am guessing, but I would think that the steam would exit through the "T" which would alleviate vapor lock. The main issue I see with the idea is that you would either have to make sure that the flow through the coil was less than full tube capacity or a head pressure would develop and sap would run out the top of the T. You might be able to prevent that by extending the T above the highest possible static sap level in the head tank, but then I'm not sure that the steam would vent as well. Just my thoughts and I am no engineer so I could be totally wrong.

[gator330]

Flats,

I was able to get that page and see johnny cuervo's idea. Very cool!!!! I would love to learn the function of the springs to control the temp. My guess is it will allow you to spreed the copper out to lower the temp or pull it in to heat more. I'll keep looking for the tread. I like the way it looks. Thanks again Brian

[KenWP]

It's a old thread. Helps with his idea if you have the square stack also.

[gator330]

I do have the same stack, that is part of the reason I like it so much. That and it has a very neat look to it.

[maple flats]

PM johnny Cuervo, he can tell you how he made it if a search doesn't find it.

[gator330]

I have the photos and am picking up the stuff Friday, be done on Saturday. That will be my Verona show, Unable to go this year Have plenty to do here any way. Shure would like to be there. Next year!

[Maplebrook]

Gator,
Regarding your question on post 23 of this thread, sorry for the delay - I must have missed it or I would have answered sooner...
There was 2 lines feeding the tank. There was 3/4" solid copper from the tank to the top of the preheater, then it split into the 2 3/8" coiled around the pipe. I had a vent as well, but duct taped it over as there wasn't vapor lock issues with my set-up. If a vent is used, plumb it back into the top of the tank. (voice of experience...)
Darren

[gator330]

Darren,

Thanks for the info. Got my Dad on it, be done this weekend. The local store didn't have 3/8 so That will be in friday. Wish I knew it took a week for them to get it from the next town. I would have picked it up there... Cold here so no real hurry anyway. Going with the one Maple Flats put me on to. The one by Johnny Cuervo. I think it will go nice with my little set up. Really looking forward to makeing steam!!!!! Not going to vent it, Going to bring it across as you did and have a 3/4 drop in cass we need to flood her fast. Then into the 3/8 with the spings to ajust the temp. Be nice if it gets the edge off the sap I'll be way ahead of last year. Shure it will do more then that. Thanks again for all the help every one.

[Dave Lister]

I have a 2x4 drop flue evaporator that gets around 25gph at best.
My pre-heater is merely a stainless box with a copper pipe with a valve on the end of it feeding into the flue pan. I usually just have this at a trickle.
The bay that this pours into barely boils due to it being soo cold.
Do you guys think 1/4 inch copper flex pipe would work in a situation like this or would that be too restrictive?
I don't think I have ever had a steady collum of sap pouring into the pan.

[KenWP]

If you can preheat the sap you can improves that boil rate a lot in that bay. I finally got mine hot enough that the boil did not slow down and I got a steady boil rate.

[Dave Lister]

Awesome. I can't wait. Found out that 20 feet of the 3/8 copper tubing is only 20 bucks, and I happen to have a 20 dollar gift card from Christmas.
What a nice gift !
I will start working on it this weekend.

On a different note, those of you who were able to get the flickr link to work, what is the user name for that account so I can look it up that way.
Sadly, in all of my internet wisdom I am still unable to get access to the pictures of johnny Cuervo's construction.

Tim

[gator330]

Tim,

Go back to post 27 by maple flats, click on the flicker link there. It took a few trys for me too, but it came up after the forth or so try. I'm on my way to get the copper now. They only have a 60 foot roll and won't cut it. it's 1.25 a foot and about three times the amount I need. And no I don't have a gift card in my pocket. Keep trying to find the pics it's a nice concept.

[Lugnut]

Gator330

I am also in need of some copper and would buy some of your leftover.

Thanks
Greg

[gator330]

Lugnut,


They did find the shorter roll I had ordered but I'll still have some left. I'll let you know how much. Should be done with it this weekend. Williamson?? My wife might be your mail lady. Unless it's the big ugly guy she works with. He's not my wife!!!!! What size operation do you have????

[Lugnut]

Gator,

Last year we had 15 or so taps this year 50+ taps on buckets.2x4 divided pan on old oil drum. Moved the rig inside to a shack in Marion. Just getting it set up now.

Greg

[gator330]

Any one, Is refrigeration tubeing the same as soft copper???? I order 3/8 soft copper. Got a 50 foot roll of refrigeration tubing. The only reason I ask is I can't bend that tube in a straight line or a nice rounded curve at all. In johnney cuervos pics the tube is bent to a perfect curve and tight to the stack. It looks perfect!!!! Mine looks like!!! Lets just say BAD! may have to regroup and go with loops aroound the stack.

[KenWP]

What letter does the copper tubeing have. Sounds like you got thick wall tubeing instead of thin.

[gator330]

The only letter by itself is the letter B. I just know that when I went around and tryed to make a sweeping bend it kinked and broke off!!!!! That was using a copper bending tool. In my mind I am breaking one of the rules right now!!!! Will look into something else another day. To angry right now to do any good.

[gator330]

For any one that may be doing somthing like this and doesn't know the types of copper you want to get " L". It is workable around corners and such. Do not try refrigeration tubeing it doesn't work!!! I am now waiting for 3/8 L copper tubing to be in next week.

[Dave Lister]

Gator,
Thanks very much for the heads up. I'm going to buy my tubing this afternoon and am glad to know that bit of info.

[KenWP]

They make L refrigeration tubeing also. Same with straight tube. They have thin and thick walls. I got 40 ft of free tubeing this summer and found out why it's free. It is 7/16 which they haven't made in years. Finally found some old stock 7/16 to half inch couplers so I can use it.

[gator330]

After a number of trys to duplicate johnny cuervos pre heater and a few ups and down as far as type of copper and what not. I have a pre heater. The L type copper was not much better then the first type I bought. It was a little easyer to bend around the stack witch is what I had to do. There was NO WAY that copper I had was going to make the nice tight even sweeping curves that I saw in the picture of johnnys pre heater. Be nice to know what grade copper tube he used. So in the end I went around the stack 10 times close but not supper tight to it. The test boil I did was good didn't get up to full speed and the water was at 120 plus with at nice stream. If I ran it full 3/8 it would cool right down. But for my little rige full 3/8 is feeding her a lot. Better then last year but still not enough!!!!! Isn't that the name of this game!!!!

LUGNUT no real extra copper to get ride of.

[KenWP]

Now what happens if you put a sheet of tin around the copper pipe on the stack. You would gain a bit more from that. The copper pipe I have in 3/8s bends rather well. You can almost tie it in a knot. Now I have never tried the back and forth method just the around the stack method.
I tried to make a preheater last year by bending back and forth with 1/2 inch tube. Now that didn't work worth beans. Anybody that would see it would die laughing but it did work once I put a sheild on it. Didn't get it as hot as i would have liked but hot enough to take the chill off.

[lpakiz]

I put a tin shield around mine, then insulated that as well as plugged the top "opening" with scraps of fiberglass insulation to keep more heat in. It helped...

[elmcreekmaple]

we built a preheater based on Johny Cuervo's design and did a few other things based on suggestions from you all:

20 feet of 3/8" flexible copper tubing and were able to bend pretty good corners using a spring that slips over the pipe at the place you make the bends - it worked slick (Menard's $4)

We will have a "T" in between the coils and the tank with tubing extending higher than the tank in case vapor lock issue happen

We extended the 180 degree bends out a bit past the stack to try and control how hot it gets, if it needs more heat we can bend them in to touch the hot metal

Valve at the tank and at the spout

We need to straight it up a bit - other then that we are pretty please and look forward to firing it up. Any other suggestions?

1302

1303

1304

[kinalfarm]

i did the same thing but i got more heat out of it when i wrapped the whole thing in sheetmetal when i was done. i just used thin coil stock and zip screws.i guess it reflects the heat back so both sides of the copper are getting heat. hope this helps good luck this season!

[morningstarfarm]

On a 2x3 drop flu pan what size tubing should I use for a preheater like this? I have a 3/4 feed from the tank and a 3/4 float valve in the flu pan. Will 3/8 be enough or should I t it off into 2 lengths of 3/8 and t back to 3/4 at float valve?

[kinalfarm]

morningstar, i would use at least 5/8'' just make sure you get soft copper. some people think that they can just buy a stick of type L and bend it like that but this is not the case. plus the bigger you go with the diam. the longer it stays in the preheater longer.

[morningstarfarm]

AHH I wasn't aware they made 5/8" soft copper.. How many wraps around an 8" stack would be sufficient?

[Bemis]

I would imagine that smaller diameter tubing with more surface area contact would produce a better temperature rise.

[kinalfarm]

i would prob. go with 30' mine makes the sap too hot to touch and i want to makeit a littlr longer or get a preheater pan also. they also make 3/4'' but its very pricey!! i think 2.50 a foot

[Bemis]

I think the way to go is smaller diameter and longer length. More surface area for heating and more coils for increased residence time.

Just one man's opinion.

[Peepers]

Good discussion and pics guys - maybe I missed this earlier in the thread but when the sap runs out am I correct that this design allows you to remove the preheater and prevent scorching?

[Mac_Muz]

I haven't read every page and chores sorta stop that for now.

Once I had a copper tubing to wrap the stack pipes, but it was terrible to get off. Worked great till I ran out of sap to heat then the copper wrap went nuts.

I redesigned to weave back and forth, and bent the weave to stack size. A 6 inch hose clamp holds 2 springs I can release a lot better, and swivel the copper tubing away on a union fitting.

Another spring attached to the handle of the pre-heat pan supports the copper tubing in a cold postion.

[TessHayden06]

I am looking to do the same trick with soft copper wrapped around my stack. I am nervous about what happens when I run out of sap to boil, as referenced here! A simple fix to that issue would be fill the bucket with water once the sap is gone and run your preheater copper to the ground?

[elmcreekmaple]

I am looking to do the same trick with soft copper wrapped around my stack. I am nervous about what happens when I run out of sap to boil, as referenced here! A simple fix to that issue would be fill the bucket with water once the sap is gone and run your preheater copper to the ground?

that makes sense to run water through it into a bucket and just keep dumping the bucket up top to your tank - it should help to keep tube clean too

Any of you seasoned guys please correct me if this wouldnt work well, but it sure seems to be a good solution

[DanE.]

My 2 cents would say that you would be shutting down before you ran out of sap anyways, so you don't burn your pans. last year i would shut down when I had about 2 gallons left if i was not going to draw off or 5 gallons if I was going to draw off. Those amounts would very depending on the evaporation rate of your evaporator. I always kept sap in the pipe with one exception of vapor lock, I had and had to flush the pipe with water to clean it out.

Dane.

[kinalfarm]

2 ways to look at the size of the copper. if you use a bigger pipe the sap will be in the preheater longer when i used a 3/8 preheater the sap went though it so fast i didnt get very hot. at the end of the boil i just shut the valve. its not going to blow up because the pressure can always go back to the head tank.

[KenWP]

that makes sense to run water through it into a bucket and just keep dumping the bucket up top to your tank - it should help to keep tube clean too

Any of you seasoned guys please correct me if this wouldnt work well, but it sure seems to be a good solution

Thats what I did. I ran water through it a bit faster then the sap and just kept it running through so that I had hot water to wash up with when I stopped. Worked well and no wrecks. Then you can stop when you want with out worrying about burning the sap in the tube.

[valleyman]

I boiled this weekend and the copper coil did not get as hot as I'd hoped. I will put some insulatation over it (per advise) and put a section of leftover 6" stack split open to fit over like a jacket to hold it all together. Ill get a 7" or 8" dia section and do the same if the 6" seems too snug.

Sure felt good out adapting to my systems shortfalls.

Dont know what I'll ever do if I ever get it "right":lol: