the ultimate fuel drum evaparator

[twobears1224]

ok guys..lets get together and plan out the ultimate fuel drum evaporator.
i,ve looked at every fuel drum post on this forum and i,ve seen some great ideas.
i plan on building one this winter and i,am in the planning stages.i already have a 275 gallon fuel drum,a 2x3 crossflow stainless syrup pan,a 24x38 inch pan several blowers and a truck load of scrap stainless steel.
after looking at the posts on here and looking over the things i already have laying around here i,am thinking about building a two pan evaporator with both forced draft and top air plus a hood and a preheater.
i like the idea of using fire brick with drilled holes as the grate so i,ll be doing that..any advise on that?? i have a bunch of four inch pipe and i figure i can use that to get air under the brick.i,ll tap into that pipe for top air also.i,am thinking i,ll need a way to control the air flow in each pipe..ideas?? yes,i,ll have a reostate on the blower.i have a new furnace blower so i,am thinking about using that for the air.
i,am thinking about mounting the blower right in the drum..i,ll cutout the sides under the back pan and mount it there on rubber mounts.i,ll just have to weld some plate in the drum to hold the fire brick under the back pan.
i,am thinking i,ll widen the drum just a tad in the front so i can use the crossflow pan as just that.the back pan will be build from a piece of stainless i just picked up..it,s the bottom of a ice cream freezer.i,ll get the seams welded and put dividers in it. i,am wondering if that pan should be slightly higher then the front pan?? i want floats on each pan and i,am thinking it,ll work best if the back pan is higher..by say three/four inches??
on the hood/preheater.i like the one piece hood on a arch this size and i like a front hood that sets above the front pan not right on it.the preheater will be the easy part.(knock on wood) i,am already planning on feeding it from a tank in the rafters and it,ll have a gauge to let me know how full it is without climbing a ladder.i plan on catching the preheater water so i,ll have hot water all the time.i,ll also build the hood with a channel on the bottom to catch the water off the hood and drain that outside.i have a piece of stainles steel channel for the part of the hood that sits on the pan.the brackets for the preheater can sit on it too.ok,folks..fire away. lets get technical on this thing and make the ultimate evaporator for the little guy.
oo,ya it,ll be wood fired but i,de like it made to where it could mabe one day burn woodchips or be oil fired.
i,ll be building a 10 foot by 14 foot sugarhouse to put it in and i know right now it,ll all be for sale one day soon.i really want 2000 plus taps but i have to start small for now.the sugarhouse is being built so it can be loaded on a truck to move when the time comes.
i have pic,s of everything i can post if it,ll make this easier.??


delbert

[3rdgen.maple]

Wow Delbert that is alot of thinking. Good luck and have fun.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I think we are all staying up way to late or early;)

[twobears1224]

lol!!! now come on guys how about some input on this?? i,de even settle for links to old posts/pictures on what i,am planning.. we could atleast get everything in one place/post.

delbert

[Gary R]

I think I should have stayed up later. I wouldn't have had 2 years worth of modifications.

Suggestions; If you can, use seperate hoods for your pans. Your preheat temperature will not get too hot because of the open hood over the front pan. You need to damper your steam stack to keep as much heat in as you can. Put dampers in your 4" air supply pipes. Make them just like the 6" ones you see for furnace pipe. I recommend the blower be outside. It will be quiet in the sugarhouse. You will only here the rumble of your boil. Also, you might burn up your blower if it is mounted inside the back of the arch. If you plumb outside air into the blower it may prevent the burning up. Have you thought about a drop tube rear flue pan? If I build another and can find the tubing thats what I'd like to make.

Oh yah, make sure you can expand the sugarhouse, your going to need it:)

[RileySugarbush]

I'd rethink the fuel tank. If you are starting from scratch,a little angle steel and sheet metal will give you a grate arch that is cheap and much easier to deal with than a round tank. Especially with the grates and bricks. Check out Davy Jones' posts for good ideas!

[Dennis H.]

I agree with RileyS, I started with a 55 gal drum and made an evap out of it. I now believe I could have built a more traditional style evap for a less $$ ad a who lot less time.

Now don't me wrong it was one heck of a ride I took to make that drum into an evap when humming along will do right around 9 gals/hr I am just saying that it took a lot of time that I could have used for other things.

[twobears1224]

naaa,i already have a 275 gallon fuel drum so i,am going with that.i do have alot of 1/8 steel plate but i,am saving that to rebuild a 4x14 arch i have for the future.
i guess with all the info already on this site we could just use this post to link to other ones that fit what i,am trying to do. i,am kinda new around here and even tho i,ve pretty much looked at every post on here it,s a pain to try and find the info i need again.. i figure the guys that did things know where the info is and they have the pic,s i need.. some pic,s in posts are gone now and i can,t find them any other place.

what i need is posts/pictures on using fire bricks as grates?

how you guys setup the forced draft??

how you guys did top air and whats needed to set it up right? if i remember right theres several diffrent angles used on the air tubes?? and will regular pipe be ok for nozzles?? if there set thur fire brick/cement?

how much air is needed for forced draft and for top air?? would one of those standard sized furnace blowers work for both??

on the hood..i should have said i want a one piece hood BUT!! the back part wil be inclosed so i can hold the steam in with a damper to make the pre heater work better.. there,ll be two steam stacks.

the preheater is another part to think on.i need to look up a post on one somebody built and post a link here..i like that style and will be using that!! right now i,am not sure what that style is called..(brain fart!!..lol)

i design and build stuff all the time and this is just another thing to keep me busy.i have a shop full of tools and i keep a machinest on speed dial.

i,ll be using insulation board and fire brick on this arch so i don,t think it,ll got hot on the outside.. my dad redid his 5x16 into a 5x14 and used insulation board plus firebrick.. we used that arch for 20/30 years then stopped sugaring for awhile.. when he desided to start back up again he went all out on equipment and we couldn,t believe how much better the arch boiled and how well it held the heat in.i was sold on that insulation board right there.

i,de like to build the blower right into the arch but,i guess i better wire it up and see just how loud it,ll be..i don,t wanta build this thing and have to wear ear plugs as i boil..

[RileySugarbush]

Fair enough. Have fun! There is a great article somewhere that give sthe lowdown on air over fire.

[Gary R]

Check out my thread here: http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=3621
There's pictures for everything your trying to do. It may not be the ultimate or the best of work but it works pretty decent. For the air over research paper look at "Maple resouces on the web" I posted a link on that thread.

[KenWP]

I am wondering if I just pipe a metal line into the evaorator above the grate that supplies a bit of extra air if that would improve the burn. I am talking about a heavy gauge pipe of maybe 3/4 to a inch basically laying on the grate with a few holes pointing upwards. I am not looking for anything complicated just enough air to keep a good fast boil going and enough flow past the drop flues towards the stack.

[twobears1224]

GARY:thanks. i like the idea of using fire brick as a grate.
i know most of what i wanta do has already been done by you folks. it,s just tough finding it all in posts.
i saw info on top air that i liked and i,ll be darned if i can find it now it used square tube and then i think three diffrent round tubes in sets pointed at diffrent angles to feed the top air.
i washed my fuel drum out yesterday and i,ll be starting on it soon.. i,ll also be starting my little sugarhouse.i was going to build a little cabin on my dads land and i changed my mind.i,ll bring the floor out to my land and use that..it,s 10 foot by 14 foot and i used 2x6,s for joints with inch lumber as flooring.

delbert

[C.Wilcox]

Delbert,

You have been doing some serious day dreaming my friend. I applaud your efforts. Seeing as how you've opened Pandora's box in regards to fuel drum evaporators, here's my thoughts on how I was planning to proceed.

Hood- I was going to bend this up using standard duct material. Cheap, available, and won't rust (at least not quickly) and I can assemble it using rivets. No welding necessary. I was going to make this up so it sat tight over the pans, but cut in a hinged window so that I can open it to see what the pan is doing.

Pan- I tossed around the idea of using two pans on the arch, but decided that it was going to be difficult with my small operation and limited time to effectively run a continuous flow set up. I plan to use a batch cooking approach, but will make up a 2X4 modified raised flue pan with a gutter in the front that will allow me to draw near density syrup off without having to tip the pan or ladle. Because my only pan will be a flue pan I'll be drawing off and finishing in another pan on a gas stove. By using 4" wide by 4" flues I can get about 16 sq. ft. of surface area out of a 2X4 pan and if I add a blower it will hopefully double the rate of a typical 2X4 flat pan. Should help eliminate late night boiling.

Fire Grate- I also liked the idea of using firebrick for a grate simply because it would make a better insulated arch, but I might go with heavy channel simply due to time restraints and available materials. The link I added below has some details on how to make one up.

Forced Air- When you say you have a "furnace blower" do you mean a squirrel cage type fan? If so, you may run into trouble if you try to use it to provide high pressure air over the fire. My dad recently tried to do this with his boiler and it didn't work at all. The best we could figure out was that the area of all of the nozzles in the manifold did not equal the amount of air that the fan could pull in and it really didn't work at all because it wasn't designed to "push" air. From what I understand from the experts here on this site, you need high pressure air to create turbulence in the firebox if you're building an "over fire" manifold. 802Maple talks about this in the following thread: http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=5534&highlight=efficiency

As far as dampering the over/under fire air, if you haven't already, check out the file at this link for some ideas: http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/Combustion.pdf I think this document says to point the injection nozzles down at a 10 degree angle.

Preheater- I also like the idea of using the steam in the hood for preheat, but from a previous thread it appears that you have to set it up as a single channel, continuous flow. In other words, one long string of pipe with a "U" curve at each end. I believe someone on here tried to build one recently that was more of a grid design and the sap short-circuited to the exit before getting heated. While it's been hashed out and beat up an infinite number of times, I still think the copper tube wrapped around the stack has some merit.

Just my thoughts for the time being. I'll be interested to see what others have for ideas.

[twobears1224]

C.WILCOX WROTE:Forced Air- When you say you have a "furnace blower" do you mean a squirrel cage type fan?
yes that what i have and was thinking about using.but,i also have a radial type fan..sounds like i should use that for top air.your post on air got me thinking again..(i get bored easy and thinking about stuff gets me thur it..)
maybe,i should plan on using two diffrent fans,i have them and it,s no big deal to hook them up.if i did that i wouldn,t have to dampen the air.i could just use reostats on both.
C.WILCOX:your post was just what i was looking for i,ll be checking out all of those links.

delbert

[KenWP]

Far as I can tell everybody worrys about what happens with a preheater based on copper tube around the stack and running out of sap. With a simple valve or swivel you can fix that pretty simple. Now to figure out a easy fix for the air either over or under the grate.

[Gary R]

The preheater type mentioned is called parallel flow. That is how I made mine. My outlet is on the wrong side so it is possible to short circuit but I think it works fine. Last week I looked at a brand new 4X14 Force 5 evaporator. Guess what type of preheater Lapierre uses? Parallel flow, made of stainless. I posted a link under maple resouces on the web. The federal goverment did a study on it and the design details are on that link.

[twobears1224]

GARY WROTE:The preheater type mentioned is called parallel flow..
yep,thats it.i like the looks of the preheater that uses parallel flow but the tubes are U shaped instead of just straight.i would think that would hold the sap back alittle bit and help it absorb heat better.somebody on here made a really nice one..i,ll have to find the pic,s.
i don,t want anything to do with that soft copper wrapped around a stovepipe preheater.i tryed that years ago when i was a teenager and had a couple hundered taps.
i,ve been thinking tho.why couldn,t a guy make a heat exchanger to fit in the smoke stack then draw that heat thur a preheater pan and let that hot air be used as your top and bottom air?? couldn,t you make a pan with heat tubes in the bottom like a thur tube flue pan?? then tap into the pipe coming out of it for the forced air?? ya,i know i think way to much!..lol

delbert

[Gary R]

Sounds like it's getting complicated:) . I don't think you can get enough surface area and rate of heat transfer for it to work. Give it a try though. We all could use something bigger and better.

[twobears1224]

i don,t know gary have you even put wet gloves on a tail pipe to dry them out?? it only talks a second to get them steaming and dry.
i see in one report that they do make and use a smokestack heat exchanger and run the air for forced draft.why not route the hot air thur some sort of piggyback/preheat pan on it,s way to the firebox??
i started work on this arch today..anybody wanta cut a fuel drum for me??..thats next!

delbert

[NH Maplemaker]

My parallel flow preheater will do 205 degrees all day long, and I have seen it hit 210 on a real good boiling day!! Look at WestVirginia Mapler"s pic, they show the whole lay out!! I used his his plans,only I used 1"copper instead of 3/4". I also used a V shaped channel drip tray instead of a flate pan type tray. I think the v shape trays let more steam hit the copper and give a hotter sap temp as the steam can pass around and up through each pipe.
The other type of preheater is call the continous flow! The sap has got to travel from the enterance to the exit before it can get out.( Like a garden hose) The problem is they often vapor lock ! With a parallel flow if one tube vapor locks sap can travel up another paraellel tube and exit! Jim L.

[twobears1224]

http://s203.photobucket.com/albums/aa160/wvmapler/

[NH Maplemaker]

Page 2 of the preheater section is were the most information is!!Jim L.

[maplesyrupstove]

This is the preheater for a D&G 3-1/2 by 12 evaporator.All stainless steel pipe and a drip pan below to catch the condensation.

[twobears1224]

NH MAPLE:i,ve been wondering about having a flat tray under the preheater coils...seems like it would block the flow of steam to some point.but,i also wonder if it matters if you have a tight fitting hood and use a damper to build some pressure in the hood?? i have a chunk of stainless all bent in the right shape/size so i,am thinking i,ll go with a tray under my preheater.,,but,i,ve also built my own sheet metal brake so i might go with V,S.. i guess we,ll see in the end.
i,ve been working on things this week as i have time.i think i,ll do more tomorrow.i need to look thur my stock and hunt up a few parts.one being legs and leveling screws for the arch.

delbert

[KenWP]

I found the neatest legs made out of SS in the junk pile at the hall. They are tubeing b ut were so heavy till I figured out that the feet are actually heavy duty screws made to adjust height. I have four of them so might figure out something to level easy this winter.

[twobears1224]

i have four of those legs they came off a large cooler.the stainless steel table/sink i bought also has four of them.i might use those spare legs on my arch....we,ll see!!

delbert

[NH Maplemaker]

twobears1224, I'm not saying that the Flat pan under the preheater wount work! But it just seems to me that if the steam can pass up under and though the preheater you will get a hotter sap tenp comming out of the exit pipe!! As I said mine runs at 205/210 degrees. There are not maney preheater out there that run much hotter than that!! The damper is a must. With out it you will not gain any were closes to sap temp you are looking for!!
Also hot water!! You can't evan beleave the amount of hot water we get, and hot you don't evan want to think about sticking your hand into the drum !!

[twobears1224]

NH MAPLE:i agree with ya...you would think using V,s would be best.i saw a pic someplace of a preheater using them and i thought it was the better idea.
we need our own pic posting place/forum instead of everybody just using where ever.i,ve clicked on countless pic links on here and the pic is gone.

delbert

[NH Maplemaker]

Some times if you don't do an update on photo buckect it will close your acount!! It happened to me last year! Had to have the kid help me put it bacK!! I don't think I put any pic's of perheater in my photo buckect. I may haft to take some and post them. Jiml.

[Sugarmaker]

two bears,
I have Vees under each tube and it has worked well for 9 years. (May move to a WRU if I get by but in gear).
I never had a preheater with a pan for a drip tray, but I thought the Vees allowed the steam to get to the pipes quicker?
I agree that 200 degrees is about the max sap temp from a parallel flow. and we get 7-8 gallons of hot water per hour.
I see the preheater on here (posted by maplesyrupstove) made from all stainless I think this seals the deal on me using stainless instead of copper for my WUR steam tubes. If they can do it why cant I:)

Regards,
Chris C.

[twobears1224]

anybody have good pic,s of a preheater using V,s under the tubes??? i think i,ll go with those.

delbert

[twobears1224]

i,ve been working on my pans..it,s have two pans.a 24 inch wide by 39 inch long rear pan with three dividers and a 24 inch by 35 inch crossflow syrup pan.i,ll have to slightly widen the fuel drum for the crossflow pan but i think it,ll work and be easy to do.i,ve also started making my float boxes which there,ll be two on it...i,ll get some pic,s tomorrow.

delbert

[twobears1224]

well,i feel much better i cut the fuel drum today and i didn,t get blown up or torched.i,am going to put the legs on it and go from there.
i,ve been working on the pans also.i have one more float box to build then it,s off to the welder.

delbert

[NH Maplemaker]

twobears1224, I would take a picture of the V shaped trays under my preheater tubs. But I lost the wardens camera and no one else here will trust me with there's !! So maybe santa will bring me one of my own!! Oh wait, he dosen't bring bad boys new toys!! But if he does I will try and get you a picture.JimL.

[twobears1224]

RUN JIM RUN!!!! lol sorry to hear you lost the better halfs camera i hope she didn,t hurt ya to bad.. :lol:
i,ve been thinking about the drip tray/ V,s alot.i think V,s are the way to go but i,am still undesided as to what i,ll use.i,ve also thought about a tray with holes pressed into it.i,de have a cone sticking up alittle bit to let steam thur and to keep the water from draining into the pan.

delbert

[twobears1224]

i have the legs on it and i,am working on the grates.i,ve been thinking again and i,am planning on making it so i can burn wood or wood pellets.i,ve been doing some research on wood pellets stoves and i think it,s pretty easy to do.(knock on wood)
anybody have a wood pellet stove that could get me a few pic,s of the inner workings???

delbert

[KenWP]

When you come to the ignitor part of the cup for the pellets let us know what you make it from. Last year we had a extreme shortage of pellets and some people had to take theirs out and use some other kind of heat for the winter. Paper was full of pellet stoves for sale. Lot's this year since they opened up another plant and they are trucking so much wood out of the states for lumber right now.

[Greg Morin]

Im sure you could burn corn too more btus than pellets

[twobears1224]

i think they have the pellet shortage under control.i know theres been two plants built in my area.i also plan on designing it so i can change from regular wood to pellets just incase.after this year i,ll stock up in the off season.
i,am just starting on my design but i think it,s be propane to start it up.

delbert