40 gallon drum...little at a time

[OneLegJohn]

OK. If I make 3 gallons of syrup an hour on a good run it is going to take over 12 hours to fill a bulk drum. How does it seal if the syrup has cooled off? Is there some trick I am missing or do people just sell bulk syrup so fast it doesn't matter if the drum is hot packed?

[KenWP]

Barrel just has a bung anyways so it dosnt really seal as such. But the last draw off is hot so it will displace the air from the heat and then you put in the bung and when it cools it will be sealed anyways. Hot always stays on top.

[Haynes Forest Products]

You leave out some important info. What are you going to do with the finished syrup. If its going off to the wholesaler at the end of the season fill as you go and ship it. Things wont mold that quick and they may not depending how you fill the drum. Sounds like your drawing of filtering and putting in the drum from your explenation...WHY? Most producers draw from the Evap into a finisher and then check for density and tweak it a little and filter and hot pack larger amounts. My finisher holds 30 gallons so its never a issue. I get a better price if the bulk syrup I sell is filterd..........It shows better if its clear. Keep the drum outside and dump finished syrup in it it will stay cold.

[maplwrks]

???????? i DON'T BELEIVE IN COOKING THE GRADE OUT OF MY SYRUP--iF YOU ARE FINISHING OFF YOUR RIG AND FILTERING, YOU ARE A GOOD SUGARMAKER!! FINISHING RIGS ARE FOR THOSE WHO ARE AFRAID OF THEIR EVAPORATORS... ANYWAY....IF YOU ARE SELLING BULK, THE PACKER OPENS THE BARREL TO GRADE IT BEFORE YOU LEAVE. THEREFORE HAVING THE BARREL BE HOTPACKED IS NOT A REAL NECESSITY. IF YOU ARE GOING TO HOLD IT FOR A WHILE, IT WOULD BE GOOD IF THE TOP 25% OF THE BARREL WAS HOT WHEN YOU BUNG IT UP. THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN DISCUSSED IN LENGTH ON THIS SITE, AND YOU ONLY NEED TO HAVE SOME HOT SYRUP IN YOUR BARREL TO MAKE IT SEAL. THE SYRUP WILL LAYER AND THE HOT SYRUP WILL SEAL THE BARREL. i HONESTLY FEEL THAT IF YOU ARE MAKING 3 GALLONS OF SYRUP AT ATIME YOU WILL BE FINE......

[mountainvan]

I draw 5+ gals an hr and fill the barrel right from the filter. My filter tank sets under the drawoff and a barrel on its side sets under the filter drawoff. The only time I've gotten mold in a barrel was when I drew off into a bucket then poured it into a barrel.

[Haynes Forest Products]

SO IT SOUNDS LIKE ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE FINISHERS ARE NOT GOOD SUGARMAKERS:cry: FOR THE LAST 6 YEARS WITH A NEW RIG ALL I HAVE MADE IS LITE SYRUP AND THAT IS DRAWING OFF 1 POINT UNDER AND AT THE END OF THE DAY HAT PACKING IT ALL AT ONCE! BUT WHAT DO I KNOW IM NOT A GOOD SUGARMAKER:cry:

DO I SOUND IMPORTANT USING ALL CAPS:lol:

[Haynes Forest Products]

Now on to the discussion I have fellow producers that run big rigs with autodraws that still filter into a finisher and then either pack it bulk or go to the bottler. So Maplwrks if your one man running the rig all day and you have plans to bottle 50 gallons of finished syrup at the end of the day when the extra help is available prey tell how would you do it.

I just called the sugar shack and the Evap is still afraid of ME....something to do with a fire:evil:

[themapleman54]

I JUST WENT AND HAD A LONG TALK WITH MY EVAPORATOR , TOLD IT I WASNT GOING TO BE AFRAID OF IT ANY LONGER!!!!!! BUT IAM STILL GOING TO USE MT FINISHER!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[red maples]

I Am Still A Little Afraid Of Mine For This Is The First Year But So Far We Are Getting Along Ok!!;)

[maplwrks]

Sorry I ruffled some feathers here---I really dislike using finishing rigs! I really beleive that if you can draw syrup a point light, you can draw syrup at density. Why would you want to cool your syrup, reheat it, then filter it?? The syrup is already hot and at density is ready to be filtered, then canned or barreled. Just seems like a waste of time, energy, and $$$ to me!!

802Maple and I spent a couple of days with the sap czar last year, and I think he will admit that this makes making syrup much easier---and FUN!!
THERON?????

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im not saying drawing off at density isnt 1 way of doing it. But its the law of averages so your temp guage and Hydrometer says that your syrup pan has SOME finished syrup around the draw off valve. So you open the valve and let 1) a little out 2) some out 3) a small amount 4) a good amount 5) alot out .......its all about your rig and how well you want or feel that you can control the finished product.

I draw off when its close and spend the day filling the finisher and all day long the syrup may cool a bit but every hour it steams and loses liquid. As I fill the finisher it is not degrading in color or taste because its not even boiling. At the end of the day I simply fire up the syrup and tweak it a bit and thru the filter press and into the barrel it goes.

I have 4 friends that help me every year tap, haul, drink, improve the woods, bottle, eat brats AND run the evaporator once again its the law of averages at the end of the day the syrup is darn close and ready for a tweak and off it goes. I dont expect them to get it perfect just have fun and get it close:) I was watching them make beer and it turns out they make 10 hugh tanks full and then BLEND them all together and average it out to make the best they can

[PATheron]

Whatever works for everybody that what I say. I was drawing off the evap into a 5 gallon pail carrying it to the canner tweeking it and then pressing it into a drum. Mike and Jerry helped me set it up where now I draw off right into a tub, weve always drawn off a little heavy for some reason, I check it right there as were drawing off and thin it usually with a little flue pan sap and then throw in the dirt and it goes right into the press and right into the barrell. It is way easier than I was doing it before and Ive got to say at the rate we draw off I probly could have done it the old way but it would have been a killer. Love the way were doing it now. Now this year only change will be its going into a double full bank seven intead of a short seven. Boy is that going to be easier. My kitchen isnt really even necessary now. The way were doing it now you could do it in your garage or something, only need one room. Thatll be good for me Im going to insulate my kitchen and fill it with R.O. equipment someday. Theron

[Dave Y]

I have to agree with Mike. I draw of at density into a step saver that is plumbed to my filter press and into the barrel. It is one less step that I have to do. I never had the time to finish on a finisher. But now that I have a force 5 I could do that instead of putting wood in the arch.

[3rdgen.maple]

Im still trying to figure out how OnelegJohn is getting 3 gallons of syrup an hour off a 2x6.
And for the statement about not finishing right off the evporator. BS I am far from afraid of mine and if I use a finishing rig that makes me a bad sugarmaker. Id liked to figure out the philosophy on that one. Is there something wrong with using a finisher to get your syrup at it's finest? Exacally how the heck does it downgrade your syrup? Man 3 generations of sugarmakers in the family and now I gotta go tell them we are bad sugarmakers.

[sapman]

I really prefer to finish right on the evaporator, too. But I still do it both ways, depends on the day. One year I was using the finishing pan, and couldn't quite make light syrup. I changed to finishing on the evap. mid-day, then I made light. Even with an auto-drawoff, I still have to chase the correct density during the day.

My only problem with not using the finish pan is that I tend to be too heavy coming straight off, and have to thin it quite a bit when reheating throughout the year. But if it's going bulk(like a lot of mine will next season, I hope), skipping the finish pan makes things a LOT easier. Letting syrup cool, then reheating, will always drop your grade a little. If you still make light, it just would have been even lighter!

Tim

[KenWP]

Problem is that some people think they are right and others are wrong so they get upset if people don't think like they do. I fight with this everyday at school also. I am deaf and can't wear my hearing aids because of people who think they are always right and talk all the time so that some of us can hear.
Makes sense to me to draw off and correct it on the finisher. That way you can put your energy into makeing syrup and not fiddleing with barrels and such. I would have to wonder if their syrup is actually a better product becasue they put the extra time into it.

[802maple]

I am not going to say that one person can make better syrup then another because they put it into a finisher or not. All I am going to say is for myself and only myself I don't like to put myself thru the extra work of finishing at the end of the day when it is so easy to get it exact off the evaporator and be done with it. When you reheat syrup it will automatically darken it, that is the law of the land. As long as barrels are clean, the syrup is to proper density and the barrel is full you can even put cold syrup in a drum and it will last easily a year. Is it better to hot pack, that is a no brainer, but it won't hurt it to put in 3 gallons an hour either.

[Russell Lampron]

I have a 2X6 and tend to make heavy syrup. It comes in batches and the temp and density tend to climb as I draw off. Because of this I filter into my canner, adjust the density and then pack my syrup. If my evaporator was big enough so that I could get a constant draw off I could get the density correct at the draw off and filter right into a barrel or 5 gallon container. It's not so much that I am not a good sugarmaker, it's more like my equipment needs to be upgraded to make things easier.

[802maple]

Hey Russ,

What I have taught guys with small rigs like your own is start drawing off slightly lighter than the exact density (say a half point) with a very small stream. If you have a thermometer on your evaporator as it climbs you continually open up the valve and try your best to keep the syrup at 7 degrees or 219 or whatever syrup is that day, you are right it most likely will get alittle heavy in the middle of the draw, but I usually let the draw keep going until it gets back down to a half point light again. If it is alittle heavy still, I immediately draw some more from the syrup pan to bring it to density. and filter it right into the barrel or whatever it is going into. I honestly think you have everything that is needed to go from the evaporator to the container and I also think you are a good sugarmaker,I have never thought otherwise.

[Haynes Forest Products]

So the act of reheating lite syrup to 200 degrees that is at density so you can filter and bottle it will darken it...........................I dont think so Now Im not saying anyone is wrong Im just sceptical.

I did a test I took 1/2 pint of syrup from a bigger container and nuked it about 5 times bringing it to a boil each time and put both syrups in identical glass containers and I see no differance:confused:

[802maple]

After buying and canning millions of pounds of syrup, I can guarantee you if you try to reheat borderline syrup by the time that you bring it to temperature and allow it to cool it will come out a grade darker. That is why all packers have the practice of blending lighter colored syrup into darker syrup to maintain grade, you will also find this in many publications on the subject.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I can see the benefits of from pans to barrel so please help me with this problem Filtering small amounts of syrup all day long thru a Cooled down filter press. NO I wont wrap it in a blanket. I can address the density issue when barrels are almost filled.

[Dave Y]

Haynes,
I filter right off the evaporator.This is how I did it, I would draw into my step saver, which is plumbed to my filter press. I would do this till I got 3-4 gal.then I would start to filter all the while draw off in tho the step saver. I would do this till I emptied the stepsaver. I f the filter press was warm enough the next time I had 3-4 gal I woulg start filtering, if not iwould clean the press and change papers and start fresh. papers and DE are not that expense. Thats what works for me.

[maplecrest]

haynes, i used a heat lamp on the filter press to keep it warm. before the day i got an r/o

[DrTimPerkins]

So the act of reheating lite syrup to 200 degrees that is at density so you can filter and bottle it will darken it...........................I dont think so Now Im not saying anyone is wrong Im just sceptical:

Reheating syrup is one thing that can/will darken syrup. The amount it will darken depends upon several factors. It might not necessarily be perceptible to the naked eye in some cases (especially if the syrup is already dark), but it can definitely happen. Sometimes it is enough to drop the grade on syrup that is near a grade break-point.

Exposure to oxygen is another thing that will darken syrup...which is why syrup packed in unlined plastic jugs will drop a grade over time (unlined plastic jugs are oxygen permeable).

Light is another darkening agent....so syrup sitting in a glass bottle on the shelf will darken somewhat.

Basic rule is that syrup will never get lighter in color than it is at the draw-off (unless you're doing something strange or illegal).

Tim P.
UVM PMRC

[PATheron]

Guys- I may try streamlining my process to the next level yet being Im running so many taps on my 3 by 10. What Im thinking is running my concentrate a bit higher and drawing right off the flue pan at the float box. What do you think. Definitely a time saver and less of chance boiling the grade out of things. Keep you posted. Theron

[802maple]

Finally Theron,I didn't think it was ever going to sink in. Now you are talking.

[sapman]

Since we are on the subject of darkening syrup, it seems to me that med. and darker syrups darken much more and quicker than light syrup. My fancy syrup will seem to hold it's grade quite well, but a dark med. becomes dark by fall oftentimes, and B became commercial. Anyone else notice this?

Tim

[KenWP]

I can't see my syrup getting any darker. If it was solid some of it could make hocky pucks. Tastes okay far as I am concerned.

[Haynes Forest Products]

What ever I end up with at the end of the season goes right to the wholesaler. I cook it ASAP and hope for the best. What happens to the syrup I bottle for my use or sale to friends doesnt matter if its medium, dark, B grade it all goes. NOW with that said I understand that alot of traders are in retail sales and things are alot differant as far as color and taste and the publics perseption of what is good syrup and what is run of the mill. I biggest fear is when that barrel of syrup hits the scale at Roths and they sample the color, density and then taste:D

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

So the act of reheating lite syrup to 200 degrees that is at density so you can filter and bottle it will darken it...........................I dont think so Now Im not saying anyone is wrong Im just sceptical.

I did a test I took 1/2 pint of syrup from a bigger container and nuked it about 5 times bringing it to a boil each time and put both syrups in identical glass containers and I see no differance:confused:


I have to agree with Haynes on this one however I haven't ran rigs dumping 50 gallon of syrup per hour, so I can't say that this is the same for everyone but I don't see any change in grade reheating it. Only change is grade I see is that the filter press makes the syrup a lot lighter than if it was gravity filtered.

I haven't studied it like Dr Perkins and I would think that under microscope or borderline syrup, it may change it enough to push it to a higher grade. I retail all my syrup, so it gets reheated and ran thru the press into my 16x24 canner/bottler, so I don't worry about hot packing it except in pints or quarts.

[WMF]

Brandon,
What type of grader do you use?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

A temporary kit, never got around to buying one of the permanent kits.

[WMF]

Hard to justify buying a $400 Lovibond if you don't sell table grade bulk.

I guarantee you will see a noticeable color change when reheating if you check with a Lovibond.

[802maple]

Hard to justify buying a $400 Lovibond if you don't sell table grade bulk.

I guarantee you will see a noticeable color change when reheating if you check with a Lovibond.

This is the last I am going to say about the subject. I know when I can syrup I do it 40 or 30 gallons per time depending on the drum. If I don't start with atleast a high end of the grade, when cooled and checked a week later, it will be in the next lower grade. So I don't get fined or have my syrup taken off the shelf, I make sure it isn't close to leaving that grade. If a person is in a state that it doesn't make any difference what grade it is, as long as it is a table grade then there is no problem, but where it is a problem here in Vermont, we have to make sure it doesn't darken outside of the perameters of the grade. Does that make us better? Most likely No. But as to whether I see syrup darken, I have to say yes.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I will admit I only go by what the wholesaler shows me with the grader that im within the limits that they will pay/call it light. Im willing to trust the people that do right by me. Im going to sell it regardless of what it grades out to be. They may blend it with the syrup they make using a RO so its a win win as far as Im concerned. I have been in the top grade for the last 6 years with the new pans so im happy and thats all I care about. I dont feel slighted at all that other states have higher grading standards:)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

One thing is for sure, Jerry knows more than most of us put together and Dr. Perkins is in the same boat and if they say it changes, then I take their word for it and it changes. WFM is more of an expert than I am and I guess I don't get caught up in being as careful as grading it a week later or a month later as I don't wholesale it. I think it is dependent on batches too because I have boiled light sometimes 4 or 5 times batching it years ago and still came out fancy. Lots of factors involved and I think if you really wanted to study it down to the molecular structure, no two batches if you were batching it into barrels would behave the same.