S.S. Sink Evaporator??

[tylerj]

I'm waiting for a price on getting a 2' x4' pan made from 20ga. stainless but in the meantime I went to the local recycle scrap yard to get some concrete blocks they had for $1 each for my arch. While there I asked the guy if they had any stainless steel just to see what they might have. He said they didn't have much in the way of sheeting but if a SS sink would work he had lots of them. He took me over to the bin which was full. He says they get tonnes of sinks in there. Anyways at first I thought I would get one to use maybe as a finishing pan. Then I got thinking what if you get a bunch of them and tie them together with copper tubing underneath coming up the sink hole. So for $5 per sink I bought 4 of them. I figured $20 was a pretty good deal. They are 17" x 20" x 7" deep I believe... I don't have the measurements here with me but thats roughly the interior dimensions.

So with the holes already there I wouldn't need to cut any. I would have to get a piece of SS or maybe a copper plate with holes punched for the tubing and then solder the cover over the sink hole opening and solder the tubing. I was also thinking of having a divider in each sink so that from back to front the sap would get thicker and thicker until it was drawn off from the front. Now I'm not sure if the dividers would do all that much for me considering I would have 4 separate compartments to begin with. Any thoughts on that???

I took a picture of the 4 sinks as there were coming out of the recycle plant and made a diagram of what I was thinking of doing. I wonder if I could get any thoughts on the design? I was thinking of having the sinks sit on a frame with cross supports between the sinks and some metal cutouts to fill in the tapered in corners to keep smoke/heat/ash within the arch. Maybe line the top of the frame with wood stove door gasket rope?? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[KenWP]

We I for one know the sinks work for makeing syrup. I made 20 gallons last spring with one sink. They are roughly 18x16 as I have several here and they are all the same . To pulg the holes I had the first one welded at a cost of $54 bucks and then for the next two I have plans for I haunted vente des garages all summer and found ss cups that fit the holes to solder in.
The first pan I had a hole cut in a barrel so it just slide in up the hold downs so that about 3 inches was in the barrel. This did give me a burn line but not to bad. My next project has two more of them set up as flue pans with just the bottom into the fire and then drop flue pipes on both to increase the surface area and therefore the boil rate. But man it's a lot of work to do it.

[Maplebrook]

Tyler,

An easier way may be to plug the drains and ladle the sap forward. Start the rear pan with raw sap and continue to ladle a scoop or two progressively forward to the front. I used this method on a 2 pan evaporator before I got the Sportsman. I'm not sure what the direct flame on the plumbing under the sinks(in your diagram) would do. Keep us posted!

[tylerj]

Thanks for the reply guys. Well after a couple rolls of solder and a couple blistered fingers........ I'm getting a welder to tig weld a solid piece of ss to close in the sinks lol. He said $20 per sink so I thought that was pretty good deal. I thought I had one sink soldered ok. It was a larger sink that I was going to use as a finishing pan. I soldered a 5" square piece of copper with a copper pipe coming out underneath along the bottom out to a shut off. Looked really good and even held water without leaking..... that is until I put in under flames. Once it got nice an hot almost to a boil I heard a crackling and sizzling. I thought to myself that can't be good... Sure enough... a leak. So I thought I better give up on the idea of soldering them and go with solid pan idea. I attached picture of it.

I have to stay away from the recycle place though... I see a sink and I think I have to get it lol.

[tylerj]

I got my sinks back today. Cost was $55 total for 5 sinks and he provided the ss to cover the sink hole. I was pretty happy with that price. So I cut some bed frame angle iron for the pan frame and some metal pieces to close in the rounded corners of the sinks. I'm thinking of using Roxul mineral fibre insulation over the bed frame. I'm going to line the inside walls with 2" brick up to the sinks to help close off the side wall contact from flames. I think I will try to stuff insulation up the from the bottom corners also to help keep the heat to the bottom only.

So this picture shows the basic setup using 3 sinks. I have 2 more but I think this will be large enough for me this year. One of them is about 1 1/2 times larger than the other two. I would like to use that as the sap pan that can boil the hardest. My question is wouldn't the hottest section be directly above the fire box? and if so wouldn't I want the sap pan to be at the front rather than the back near the flue pipe?? Or does enough flame along with flue gases heat that back pan enough to get it boiling good? I plan on building up the back end to direct the heat up. Is about 16" about right for the firebox height to the front pan bottom?

[Ewetopia]

where in S.W ontario are you?

[tylerj]

where in S.W ontario are you?

Just outside Dutton.

[PerryW]

I would also vote for sealing up the holes and just ladling sap. That way you can lift the individual pans off if you need to and won't have to worry about leaky tubing hanging down in the fire.

You will also be able to run at different levels in each pan (deeper in the syrup pan and shallower in the sap pan.

[KenWP]

If you keep the pans separate you can ladel sap from pan to pan and then when done the sap fill with water for clean up after wards. I do plan on haveing the back pans higherthe the front pan so that I can attach a pipe to the second last pan and have it dribble into the front pan. Thats the plan but me and mice often have our plans go amuck.

[3rdgen.maple]

Throw the ladle in the garbage and build a siphon. You can lift off the pans and not burn yourself when ladeling. Just have to check them once in awhile to make sure they have not lost suction.

[RickinFarmington]

Could someone please submit a diagram of a siphon that actually works? Also exactly how do you get the suction going again once you lose it? Once the pans get to boiling and are hot, it seems a little dicey to me. I am very interested in this concept, but my initial experiments have failed.

Thanks,

Rick

[BarrelBoiler]

rick, eaarlier this summer i think there was a discussion of sphions try a search for it

[Haynes Forest Products]

Siphons wont work if there sitting is boiling sap/syrup because the air bubbles/steam break up the SIPHON effect. They work best when the pans have drawoff boxes on the sides in air free liquid. Plus the only way they work is if you have a level differance between the pans. and a 1/4 of an inch is not going to maintain a good siphon. You need to move alot of liquid to keep it going and no air/steam in the tubes. I think you will be very pissed off trying to make them work and function well let alone be reliable.

[KenWP]

Just as long as a person can keep a good boil going it dosn't matter to much how you get it done. I just need to figure out how to bypass 3 gallons a hour somehow. When you got 200 gallons of sap sitting there at 3 gallons a hour sleep is just a dream. You know you will be watching water boil for a few more hours yet. But I got it all boiled and in jugs.

[Haynes Forest Products]

What you can do is keep your eye open for a small gear pump one that will work with a cordless drill and using copper pipe make a U shaped setup with the pump at the top. use soft copper so you can bend the U shape. On the intake and suction sides of the copper cut/drill openings so the sap/syrup can enter the tube when its on the bottom of the pans. Dont use plastic or rubber hose. only make the U shape about 3" higher than the pan sides. When you want to transfer liquid just stick it in the pans and pull the trigger. DONT pull the trigger unless the tube ends are sitting firmly on the bottom of the pans. You can buy Liquid Lifter brand impeller type pumps that will work.

[RickinFarmington]

thanks for the answer to the siphon question. The small pump is the correct way for me to go. I can finally get rid of my ladle. This should complete my 2010 upgrades to my SS sink evaporator.

rick

[3rdgen.maple]

Haynes I gotta disagree on this one. I ran siphons in not on the side for alot of years on my flat pans. Each pan boiled as hard as a flat pan could and I had no problems. Maybe once a day I would lose siphon in one of them and if you are on top of things which you should be on any setup you will notice it. They key is to have a large cup on the bottom of them to keep the boil from going up the siphon and Set them off to the side over the rails. There was also no level difference between my pans they all sat directly on the arch rails flush with each other. I had 4 sap pans and one syrup pan. Siphons in all the sap pans but not in the syrup because the pan was much higher than the rest. To start the siphon all you have to do is submerse them in a pail of sap and put them in the pans. I think you are gonna be running back and forth all day long going from pan to pan with that drill pump in your hand. Check old posts I gave a description how to build them. Sorry Haynes first time.

[Haynes Forest Products]

3rdgen. No problem:) Sounds like you have it down. But now tell me how long it took you to get it right. How do you keep the cups from swimming away when you pull a siphon. Sounds like Risk was thinking of the laddle system so that is why I suggested the drill method. I too would like to see pictures for my own education. One last thing are you using sinks or bigger pans with deeper liquid?

[KenWP]

The cups are attached to the syphon. I will try the syphons also this spring instead of the ladle method. She who has to be obeyed might get tired of trying to keep up to the evaporator that way while I am out gathering or hideing in the bush.

[RickinFarmington]

OK, I guess I will just have to make the siphon system work now that I have another clue. So, you attach these small metal cups to the two overhanging copper legs that go down into each pan. I understand to get the thing going, you submerge the the whole shabang into a bucket of sap/water and then back to the your two pans.
Does the siphon action then just start as the level in my syrup pan decreases? I will cob up this arrangement and try it in my dual kitchen sinks/

I am using two eight inche deep SS sink pans, however after adding my drop copper tubes, I will have to raise the sides of my sap pan to control the splashing from my 17 volcanoes eminating from the copper drop tubes.

Will report back as to my sucess/failure.

Rick

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Why not build a big stainless ladle that holds 16 to 32 ounces. Make it like 12 x 12 and about 1" deep. Round or square would work and you would have to run the level a little deeper than the ladle and just set the ladle against the bottom of the pan and it would fill in about a second and take about 5 seconds to dump it doing it slowing and carefully.

[3rdgen.maple]

3rdgen. No problem:) Sounds like you have it down. But now tell me how long it took you to get it right. How do you keep the cups from swimming away when you pull a siphon. Sounds like Risk was thinking of the laddle system so that is why I suggested the drill method. I too would like to see pictures for my own education. One last thing are you using sinks or bigger pans with deeper liquid?

Haynes I upgraded to a shiney new drop flue last year but what I had was a genuine 2x6 flat pan setup one of the big names but darn if I can remember what one. I watched my grandfather fight those siphons for 2 seasons before I took the cups on the bottoms off and got some larger copper end pipe caps and soldered them on. The valves on the top were getting a little weak as well so I filled them with solder and these two changes made the difference. The cups or end caps are soldered on one side of the siphon with a small gap at the bottom. Rick once they are filled with sap and the air is out of them (tip them upside down in the bucket of sap) set them in the pan and the sap will level itself out between the pans automatically. Fun to watch. I ran my pans about 1 1/2 deep and they were shallow pans.

[KenWP]

I can almost figure out the siphons by the discription of them. I just have to figure out what size of copper tubeing to use to make them. I think 1/2 inch should work but what do I know.
Slowly getting my SS sink evaporator made over here. Just trying to over come a few material problems again. I think that there has to be a sorce for what I need some place.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thanks 3rdgen OK so if I were going to make Siphons I would look for a good heating and Air cond supply and in the copper section they have just what you want. NICE copper premade loops that look like the slide end of a trombone. If you want to make the loop Good supply houses have long sweep street elbows and couplers with bleeder caps. 1 bleeder and 2 street elbows and 2 6" sections of 1/2" pipe and 2 1" caps about $10.00 and your in the money. Scrub out good with bottle brush and polish.

NOW its important that you listen carefully This is in line with siphoning gas If you do put the bleeder cap on the top and you find that you cant keep a good siphon going the old time siphons had little petcocks on the top. You can screw on the bleeder and if you slip a 36" piece of CLEAR tube on the petcock and during the boil suck the siphon full of sap/syrup until you see it in the tube and close the petcock and remove the tube. Dont get carried away and take a drink.

[3rdgen.maple]

Not sure if it makes a difference or not in size of the siphon but mine were 1". I think the caps were 2 or 2 1/2 " and yes careful if your sucking on them to get the siphons started Hence the reason I recomend the cold sap pail method.

[Haynes Forest Products]

comeon 3rdgen I gave them 36" safegard if that ain't enough then Darwin will take over:evil:

[3rdgen.maple]

Better make it 38 just in case:D
Rick I just reread your last post and I have to remind you that I was using flat pans. With the drop tubes and the amount of boil you are getting I have no guarantees they will work for you. You are talking about alot more gph than I was getting. But hey for 10 bucks give it a shot and be sure to let us know how it works out.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I have a book with pictures of a hugh rig from the 50s that has to be 4x16 using the siphon tubes with the petcocks. They were in the side box and was told the valve was to stop the flow so they could pull the tube out of the pans without making a mess. They look to be 1" I would think for a small evap 1/2 would be good

[tylerj]

So if I understand this right if you were to make a simple square "U" shaped siphon from 1/2 inch copper with the ends recessed in a 1" copper cap and submerse it in a bucket of sap to fill it.... when you turn it right side up after its filled (the position it would be in on the evaporator) and pull it out of the bucket the sap it should not drain out right??? Similar to those automatic pet waterers that only empty as the water level in the bowl goes down so that air gets into the reservoir???? The 1" copper cap being the same idea as the water bowl and the 1/2" U being the reservoir. The cap should be full of sap but will not overflow as long as its held upright???

[3rdgen.maple]

Well sorta. Water seeks a level state and with a siphon it eqaulizes it in the pans. But yes so long as the siphin tube sits down in the cup and the tube itself is air tight. The dog waterer deal is different. Water is sealed in a bottle and when the water in the bowl reaches the opening in the bottle it seals the bottle by not letting any air in it. But Personally I would use larger than 1/2 in. and a cup larger than 1" . Go 3/4 to an inch for pipe and 2 inch for the cap. The larger diameter will weight more and be less affected from the boil and the larger cup will restrict the amount of air bubbles entering the siphon and rendering it useless, it would just be more stable overall.

[tylerj]

Well I did a little experimenting with some 1/2" copper and elbows I had laying around. I was using 2 pots on the stove to see how it would work. I fitted a clear piece of tubing at the top of the basic "U" siphon so i could see what was happening inside. At the bottom of the outlets I soldered a 90 degree elbow. When the siphon was in place it was leaning a bit due to the height difference of the pots to the siphon length which resulted in the elbows pointing up at about a 45 degree angle. I thought that would help with keeping the air bubbles out.

With no heat the siphon worked great keeping the pots level as I removed and added water. Went both ways no problems. Turn the heat on and trouble began quickly. Copper.... being copper.... heats up very fast. I think it touching the bottom of the pot didn't help either. I wonder how much heat transfered directly to the copper and to the water inside. Almost immediately as the water heated their was condensation and bubbles forming in the clear tube. Within minutes the siphon had lost its effect. I could see air bubbles inside the elbow that had formed from the copper heating up (water wasn't boiling yet in the pot).

So 3rdgen you are right about 1/2" not being ideal. I think if you want to go this route the bigger the better for tube sizing and if possible some sort of valve at the top to keep it primed. I'm beginning to think maybe ladling would be less work after all.

[tylerj]

Well I think I'm ready for the sap. I decided to connect the sinks underneath with 3/4" copper so that I can add sap to the back and draw from the front. I gave up on the over the top siphon idea. I did a couple test boils and no leaks so hopefully things will go well. The insulation isn't pretty but it really helps seal up the arch pretty tight. I also soldered a bunch of copper tubing pieces to the underside of each sink hoping they would act as heat absorbers to help with the boil. Not sure how that solder will hold up though. Now I just the warm weather to arrive for the sap to start flowing!

[Haynes Forest Products]

TylerJ Looks like a poto developing lab:) Nice job maybe a chunk of a angle iron layed down on top of all the insulation will help contain it and keep it out of the sap. One good filter and its gone. Are you going to cover at the end of the day and just go from there? I would on my first shut down hang around when its cool and look for the drips/leaks. I had a solderd set of pans and when they were totaly cooled down in the morning you would see in the ash a little hole under the pin hole drips:mad: Good luck

[tylerj]

Thanks for the tip Haynes. Yes I was planning on covering it and will definitely be looking out for leaks.

[tylerj]

Well my sink evaporator worked out good last year. The plumbing underneath held together fine. The only problem I ran into was between the first 2 pans nearest the firebox. The direction of the heat/flames caused the sap to suck out of the first pan into the second. I ended up putting a 12" extension down into the elbow in the first pan to disconnect the flow between them. Even then the sap would boil up and out that 12" piece.

Seeing how well the sap boiled in the copper I decided this year to add a bunch of flue pipes to each sink. I'm not sure I am going to connect them together though. This year I used Lennox liquid stainless steel flux and it worked really well using the smallest flame I could get on the propane torch. Something else I learned from last year was to "wet" the copper elbow first before attempting to join it to the pan that was also pre-wetted. What a difference that makes! So using 3/4" tubing I've added about a square foot of copper surface area to each pan. I'm thinking this will certainly increase my boil rate. I've completed 2 of the pans so far.

[70 Buick]

This is very cool and I would like to try it on one of my pans

how do you get it to attach to the sink, I realize it is soldered but I have questions on how, since I have never soldered before

you cut the hole & then just put the copper pipe even with the metal sink & solder it around the pipe?

any particulaR kind of solder?, lead free of course

[mathprofdk]

Me, too! I've done some soldering, but only copper to copper. I'm interested in getting details for this.

I've always wondered what flues where. :rolleyes:

~DK

[Kev]

Me, too! I've done some soldering, but only copper to copper. I'm interested in getting details for this.

I've always wondered what flues where. :rolleyes:

~DK
tin both pieces with flux and solder. you do not want or need alot of solder just enough to be coated. So that when you go to solder the pieces together you only have to join the solder to the solder

[mathprofdk]

Sorry... "tin"? I'm assuming this means heat up each area and apply a little flux and solder before trying to fit them together?

I've never done anything like this for the basic copper plumbing I've done in the house. Is there a special solder to use? Can I just use the regular stuff I used for plumbing? (This is the new stuff, so lead-free.)

Another question: how do you join the SS to the copper - I mean, just cut a hole that's 1/2" diameter and slide the copper through? Do the flues stick up into the pan?

This is probably all obvious stuff...:confused:

~DK

[Kev]

Sorry... "tin"? I'm assuming this means heat up each area and apply a little flux and solder before trying to fit them together?

~DK


exactly! coat the mating surfaces completely but lightly then join them together. you will not fight the metal differences as much. you will then be joining solder to solder.



I've never done anything like this for the basic copper plumbing I've done in the house. Is there a special solder to use? Can I just use the regular stuff I used for plumbing? (This is the new stuff, so lead-free.)
~DK

if you can get it hot enough for a stick of silver solder would be best. but what you are using should be fine. the type I am refering to as "stick" comes in a solid stick and is not rollled up like plumbers solder. I think it has a higher silver content than the plumbing alloy. I am sure it has a higher melting point. so you would have to use more heat to get it to flow. A little propane torch seems to be at the extreme end of its abilitys in my experiance on stuff with much mass. . although I have used 2 at once and got it to flow ;)



Another question: how do you join the SS to the copper - I mean, just cut a hole that's 1/2" diameter and slide the copper through? Do the flues stick up into the pan?
~DK


it looks to me like the poster flared the ends some so they will set in the hole and you do not have to try to hold them in place that way.
This is probably all obvious stuff...:confused:

~DK[/QUOTE]

I hope this is clear

[70 Buick]

How would you "flare" it?
put it in a vice (the copper) and use a punch down the end with a hammer?

[KenWP]

The best way I found to flare the ends was to cut a steel pipe about a 1/4 inch shorter then the copper pipe that it will fit inside of and then pound the copper down onto the steel pipe to make a nice flat flare.

[Kev]

The best way I found to flare the ends was to cut a steel pipe about a 1/4 inch shorter then the copper pipe that it will fit inside of and then pound the copper down onto the steel pipe to make a nice flat flare.

ah nice idea

[3rdgen.maple]

You definatley would want to work with silver solder with stainless steel. Much easier to get to stick and flow nice. You can get it at a hardware store and it does come in the spools or coils as well. It also requires a special flux, which is acid in a liquid form and not a paste. I found some in a little kit with both the solder and flux. Biggest mistake I think people make is they think more is better but not so. If I recall correctly silver solders melting point is 416 or 419 degrees F. Not alot higher than the tin solder and such. Also if you use a torch do not put the flame directly on the spot you are soldering. All your going to do is burn the flux and make a mess. Rather heat it from the underside and just as soon as the solder melts quit heating. It takes a bit of practice. Nice clean surfaces area also a must.