How niter builds up

[Haynes Forest Products]

I was wondering as niter is made and accumulates on pans what is the prosess???
1) does it form in suspension and stick to the bottom?
2) Does it only stick to the heated surfaces and build up from there?
3) is it like electro plating and only comes out of suspension when it has a similar surface to stick too?

Im having new finish pans built as we speak and Im having extra drawoff boxes added to the 18x36 pans that I burned up. The box will be on the oposite side as the draw off and will be off centerd because of the divider. They will be for draining the pans for cleaning. Im tired of waiting for the syrup to flow around the dividers and out the drawoff. I can pull the side plumbing but thats a mess.

Here is the money question CAN the niter be filterd out of the syrup DURING the boiling prosess? Im wondering if it becomes solid at a lower temp than boiling temps and could the niter be removed and the syrup reintroduced back into the finish pans during the evap prosess and cut down on the build up?

Yes I know I would be mixing the syrup in the last 18x36 pan but if I was to remove contaminates such as niter, defoamer and all the other crap that ends up in the finish pan would I end up with lighter syrup and cleaner pans??

I have a feeling this has been tried.................Dr Perkins??????????????

[red maples]

...your answer is no and here's why...OK ready. remember that science lab where you got a strange liquid and you had to separate all of the components of it. by filtering usually sand, seprating in a centrifuge, distilling it...alcohol, boiling down potassuim, sodium, sugar what ever else might be there.

Nitre or niter technically is potassium nitrate, very soluable in water. As the water is removed the saltpeter(potasium nitrate) molecules begin to join together and crystalize and not only adhere to each other but to what ever it comes in contact with and looks kinda like rock candy under a microscope. So as soon as bubbles form on the bottom of the pan you start to get a niter build up although not visible with the naked eye. there is some suspended in the liquid that is why it settles out when its not filtered and more comes out as it is heated over a certain temperature don't remember the exact temp. but it aggitates the salt peter and more will come out!! I am sure if you could get it out with a centrifuge or not but that would have to be one big centrifuge.

That's all I remember from college. I only had general chem I and II. But I am sure others can explain more about it. and yes I am sure Dr Perkins might know a thing or 2 about it.

Did I get it right??? it's been about 18 years since college.

[KenWP]

When you filter the syrup the temp drops and when you get back to boiling the niter forms again. You would gain the fact you got rid of the other junk but would still have niter. Thats why you bottle syrup at 180-190- so it does not reform niter on you. Other then that it would be great if you could do it.

[3rdgen.maple]

I have been thinking about getting one of my old spare pans coated with non-stick teflon that they use in frying pans and such. I had sent out some printing press cylinders for a company to get the coating and might just send a pan there to test and see what the results are from the niter sticking to the pan as well. I think it is the biggest pain in the butt when it comes to sugaring.
Red if you got that wrong it sure does sound pretty impressive;)

[KenWP]

Can they make food safe teflon for one and just how will it stick for two and will niter not stick to it for three.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Now I got ya thinkin:rolleyes: Once again its the trade offs. At the end of the day if most of the niter is stuck to the pans then its not in the syrup. If its in little chunks rolling around in the pan then it will clog the prefilter ASAP. If its in suspension at high levels then it will settle out as it cools in the finisher before its reheated stiring it back up before the filter press

Im wondering how much darker syrup gets because of all the niter contact during the evap prosess?

[Cabinet man]

Last year we shut down, drained the pan, no filtering, rinsed the sludge out of the pan, poured it back in and re-fired. It was by far the lightest we made, but, not as good tasting as the other batches. I think a little experimenting on the timing will give very good results. Keep in mind we run a 2x5 flat pan on propane. It took less than 10 minutes to full boil again without much effort. Wood fired would be a major pain.

[maplwrks]

Back to what Cabinetman said--after cleaning their rig, they made syrup that wasn't good flavored. I agree with this, I feel you need a certain amount of nitre in the pans to bring out the flavor in the syrup. I also feel that too much nitre will make your syrup darker. I like to clean my pans daily, but that is limited to filtering the syrup in the pans and rinsing the pans with water while they are empty. Once I determine that the buildup is too thick, I change out the pan for a clean one.

[3rdgen.maple]

Ken I sure hope the non-stick teflon is food grade as every cooking pan in my cuboard has it. As far as questions 2 and 3 I have no idea that is why I want to try it.

[red maples]

you have to be very careful with the teflon coating even though it is on pans and stuff once it starts to peel off the pans you should get rid of it.

and most pans are aluminum which warp very easily in high heat applications.
I don't know how well it will adheere to stainless.

its really not good stuff and risky here's why. read this link.

http://www.naturalpath.com/healthy_eating/teflon_coating_are_your_pans_and_cookware_safe

[red maples]

anyway if someone had a way of getting that all that junk out before you boil!!! would be great.

those using RO's, your taking out water and concentrating you solution does that effect the amount of niter? it's still there but does any come out during the water removal???

[DrTimPerkins]

I was wondering as niter is made and accumulates on pans what is the prosess???
1) does it form in suspension and stick to the bottom?
2) Does it only stick to the heated surfaces and build up from there?
3) is it like electro plating and only comes out of suspension when it has a similar surface to stick too?


I apologize for the quick answer (am in Maine at the NAMSC/IMSI annual meetings).

1. Niter (predominantly calcium malate, from dissolve calcium minerals and malic acid in the sap) precipitate out when it is no longer possible for the material to remain dissolved in the liquid (not in suspension). Some sugar and other things may become entrained in the material as well. This occurs in different parts of the pan depending upon whether concentrate with RO and how much you concentrate. The compostition may also change with position in the evaporator (tends to be more proteinaceous in the early part of the evap and more mineral later aon). When it comes out of solution it adheres to the pan surfaces. This is referred to as "scale" within the industry. Small pieces may break off and form particles. This is "sand".

2. Yes, predominantly sticks to heated surfaces and builds up.

3. No, not at all like electoplating.

There has been some work looking at the chemical composition of niter. We've done a much larger study -- hopefully it'll be published in the Maple Digest within the next six months (paper is in preparation). We've also done some work looking at various ways to remove scale without using harsh chemicals (strong acids). Unfortunately, it is a very challenging problem, not only for our industry, but for others as well (but stay tuned....we have some ideas on ways to make cleaning easier).

I'd avoid Teflon for several reasons (not enough time to go into them here).

TP

[Mike Van]

Too bad there isn't some type of metal cathode you could hang in the tank that the nitre would go to before the stainless. My last chemistry set was in the mid 60's though, so don't hope for an answer from me! :lol:

[sapman]

A guy near me has developed a grease-type substance that is super slick, and he claims nothing sticks to it. I think he said it has been used in the marine industry as a lubricant, and to keep things from sticking to surfaces. He claims it's food-grade, and doesn't change properties under high heat. So that got me wondering, if it would do any good applied to the surface of pans to aid in limiting niter build-up. But I don't care to be the guinea pig that tries it.

Tim

[3rdgen.maple]

should we be throwing our teflon cooking pans out then? I was just curious about the teflon coating and until this thread my only conser was the flexing of the thin pans breaking it off. Now I know better and will not try it. But sapman I can get it done if you want to be the guinea pig.

[DrTimPerkins]

There was some work done in Canada on demineralizing sap. The process worked, but is likely to be considered adulteration under most maple laws.

Tim P.

[red maples]

OK Dr Perkins.... So I originally thought the "scale" was calcium. but when I heard the term "niter" I thought that it was potasium nitrate? I just did a quick search, to double check my brain, the definition for "niter" says it is KNO3. So why is it called niter if the definition of niter is potasium nitrate????

Did someone just call it that one day 200 years ago and it stuck??

or is the term Niter just a generic term?

[KenWP]

should we be throwing our teflon cooking pans out then? I was just curious about the teflon coating and until this thread my only conser was the flexing of the thin pans breaking it off. Now I know better and will not try it. But sapman I can get it done if you want to be the guinea pig.

Pans are sfae untill they start to chip off then best to throw away or use for dog dishes and buy new ones. My thought was industrial teflon might not be food safe compared to teflon on frying pans and rolling pins.

[red maples]

don't buy the teflon ones anymore you can get ceramic coated pans if they chip it doesn't matter it won't bother you!!! and it works just as good as teflon.

[3rdgen.maple]

Ken it was a company that coats the pans for cooking that did the coating on the machine. That was the same place I was considering so yes it is suppose to be food grade. The part of the machine that needed it done was solid stainless steel cylinders that are pretty darn big and takes a forklift to lift them.

[DrTimPerkins]

...is the term Niter just a generic term?

Yes, "niter" is just a generic term. Most often it is used to refer to potassium nitrate, as this form has the largest economic value.

In maple, "niter" or "nitre" refers to both the "scale" that forms on and adheres to the pans as well as the loose "sugar sand" particles that must be filtered from syrup to clarify it.

Tim P.

[red maples]

Oh good thank you for that clarification!!!!

Its funny that a generic word is used more often when it comes down to economic value.

[Asthepotthickens]

My neighbor just showed me his syrup in mason jars. It's quite dark and when the bottle is turned upside down you can see a glob float down like a cloud the size of a lime in a one liter mason jar. I have had settlements before and some sand but this is heavier. The syrup tastes good is it niter?

[Russell Lampron]

My neighbor just showed me his syrup in mason jars. It's quite dark and when the bottle is turned upside down you can see a glob float down like a cloud the size of a lime in a one liter mason jar. I have had settlements before and some sand but this is heavier. The syrup tastes good is it niter?

That would be a form of mold. It is most often caused by not having the syrup hot enough when packing in glass. The syrup should be heated to 190* and the glass heated first to prevent this. The researcher that I got this information from recommended discarding syrup that this has happened in.

[RileySugarbush]

That would be a form of mold. It is most often caused by not having the syrup hot enough when packing in glass. The syrup should be heated to 190* and the glass heated first to prevent this. The researcher that I got this information from recommended discarding syrup that this has happened in.

It might be mold but might be niter too.
When I first started out I would get these hovering clouds. Reheating on the stove and filtering didn't clear them up. I checked them out under a microscope and they were tiny crystals. So niter.

I think they formed when heating for bottling in a pot on the stove. Even though I didn't bring the bulk of the syrup up too over 200, the hot spots over the electric element were boiling locally.

I never get them anymore using a water jacket bottler and better filter procedure.

[Asthepotthickens]

It might be mold but might be niter too.
When I first started out I would get these hovering clouds. Reheating on the stove and filtering didn't clear them up. I checked them out under a microscope and they were tiny crystals. So niter.

I think they formed when heating for bottling in a pot on the stove. Even though I didn't bring the bulk of the syrup up too over 200, the hot spots over the electric element were boiling locally.

I never get them anymore using a water jacket bottler and better filter procedure.


It was bottled at 190 to 200, we built a couple of stainless pails with pour spouts that we keep at a low flame when bottling
I helped bottle one batch and it too clouded up. I would hate to have to tell him to throw 40 gallons of syrup away.

[Asthepotthickens]

I also should add that he has a big evaporator 4 by 6 fluted pan? He just told me that when he was alone boiling he kept on adding sap to near syrup waiting for help to draw off. Would that not cause more niter build up?

[happy thoughts]

My guess would be it's some form of niter. Mold needs oxygen to grow so it would more likely be found at or near the top of the container rather than the bottom.