sap ladder

[michelle32]

Just got a vac pump and releaser. Now I have questions on the height of a sap ladder. Is the max hight from the top of the pump or can sap ladders be run in several spots on same line. Thanks Keith

[Haynes Forest Products]

I was told not to go past 12ft per sap ladder and yes you can put more than one in the same main line. You cant run the vacuum dry line past the first sap ladder. High vacuum is best when using sap ladders.

[caseyssugarshack93]

i think it depends on how many " your pulling, 1" of vac then that refures to1 foot of lift so if you were pulling lets say 20 inches of vac you can lift 20ft this is just what i hurd i dont know if its right or not?


just my two cents

Nate

[Russell Lampron]

Nate is right, 1 inch of vacuum will lift a column of sap 1 foot. You can have more than 1 ladder in a mainline but you have to introduce a vacuum leak at each ladder for them to work right. That being said the fewer ladders the better for maintaining as high a vacuum level as possible to the rest of the woods. If you are using the 6 way stars to make your ladder 1 star is good for about 50 taps. Just add more stars and fittings to support the number of taps. I have a 2 pipe sap ladder that works very well. It is made of two 3/4" pipes and will handle up to 500 taps.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

You can run several sap ladders in a single line to lift the sap. No single lift should be over the height suggested (one foot of lift for each inch of mercury). You can have a total lift in a line much higher than that by using multiple ladders. I went through these same questions last year I was setting up parts of my system. I have made no effort to put any artificial air leaks at my ladders to make them work and they seem to operate fine. I am not convinced it is necessary.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I go with Tompson on the leak theory. We are told that we want to keep all bacteria out of the lines and then you airate the sap! doesnt make sense. My 3 star set up 12' high works great. I think with the natural gas and leaks you dont need outside air.

[michelle32]

Thank you all for your input it is greatly appreciated.
Russ your about 15 minutes from me. I was thinking maybe I could stop and checkout your setup . As im starting to lay out the woods for lines. Possibly get some ideas on how to doit more efficient.

[Russell Lampron]

Kieth I will be home this weekend. I would like to show you my set up and talk maple.

[michelle32]

Russ i can make it sunday morning if this works for you. My wife ( previous girlfriend / sap hauler ) will also be with me. Probably too early for boiling sodas but not to early for holy water / bud lite. The pump I got is a universal masport- major. It had 1200 taps on it with 23 hgs. Right now I have about 250 that I can put on. With potential for 500 or 600 more.

[Russell Lampron]

Kieth,

Sunday morning works for me. What time will you be over? I'll either be working on getting my sugar wood in or working on my camper. "Boiling sodas" it's after 5 somewhere!

[sapman]

Russ,

I'm interested in setting up a ladder like you did. Do you know how the sap goes up? I mean does it pool up in the lower line, then go up with a "gulp" every so often? Or are small amounts being lifted most all the time sap is running? It just seems like it's more difficult for sap to be pulled up a 3/4" column than a bunch of 5/16ths".

I really don't want to go through almost two rolls of 5/16ths" again to make the next ladder that I'll need.

Thanks,
Tim

[michelle32]

Russ Im thinking like between 7:00 or 7:30. If that works for you.

[Russell Lampron]

Tim,

The sap goes up one leg constantly, almost like it is boiling in the pipe and will ebb up and down in the other one until it gets up to about 4 feet in the pipe. Then it will go up in a couple of big gulps then start pooling again. Sap is constantly going out of the top of it into the pipe the goes to the releaser. At the releaser there is a small stream of sap coming all of the time and bigger gushes as the other pipe empties.

Kieth,

I like 8:00 better. I like to sleep in on the weekends.

[michelle32]

Thats fine Russ. Do you want me to bring you a dunkin donuts cffee. I have to go right by any ways. See you around 8:00. Thanks Keith

[Dave Lister]

Ok,
So here's my question. I want to get vaccum going next year.
I am on a gravity setup at 2 percent grade or better with most of my bush way above where my vaccum pump will exist. Easily 30-40 feet in elivation. There are a few gullys there that I can't tap right now, but anticipate being able to tap once I have a vaccume set up with a sap ladder.
If my new pump can pull 20 inches or 20 feet of pull from what I just read, can it then pull more due to the pump being so much lower than where the ladder is??
I guess what I am asking is will the max hight that I can pull sap up with a ladder go up 5 feet if my pump is 5 feet lower than where the sap ladder exists? Not that I want to have a 25 foot sap ladder, though that would make the back side of my hill a whole lot easier in the next few years...

Tim

[Amber Gold]

Keith, I think Russ lives on D&D coffee. Russ has a nice setup with varying terrain and I think all aspects of tubing setup.

Tim, pump location is irrelevent to anything on the sugarbush. You could have the pump a mile away and 1000' higher in elevation and provided you hae a pipe bringing vac. to the system it'll work.

[michelle32]

Thanks Josh, Hows the syrup sales going? We've got 1 gallon left. Are you stocking up on pallet wood yet?

[Amber Gold]

Things have been pretty slow since last maple season but are picking up for the holiday season. I've bought 35 gallons since last season and have 10-15 gallons left.

I haven't gotten any pallet wood. I've been able to get plenty of pine and I think I'll get pallet wood if it looks like I'll run out. I have 12 chord stacked and another 3-4 chord cut so I don't think I'll run out. If I had a way to take it off the trailer I'd probably pick up a few boxes just to mix in.

Congrats on your new wife/girlfriend.

If you're going to have 250 taps on vac. plus buckets you're going to want a larger evaporator. You'll have a heck of a time trying to keep up.

[Russell Lampron]

Kieth, decaf black but don't make a special stop just for me.

Tim 20 inches will lift 20 feet regardless of if the pump is above, below or on the same plane. If you are maxing out at 20 inches you may want to make your ladders a little shorter for times when your vacuum isn't quite down to 20 inches. Mine is 9 feet tall so I can have some major vacuum malfunctions before it won't lift anymore. I was pulling 23 inches most of the season last year but there were times when the releaser malfunctioned or there were vacuum leaks that got me up into the teens.

Like Kieth and Josh I too ran out of syrup and had to buy some to get me to next season when I can make more. The way it has been selling I may need to buy even more. One of the customers that stopped in last weekend was here from New Zealand. They were going to buy 4 quarts but bought 2 quarts and 2 half gallons instead.

[sapman]

Russ,

Thanks for the explanation! One more question: Have yoiu checked vacuum levels beyond the ladder to see how it is holding up?

Thanks,
Tim

[Russell Lampron]

Tim,

I have checked vacuum levels and I when I have 23" at the pump and releaser I have 21" at the end of the mainline that is farthest away through the sap ladder. The end of that mainline is about 1400' from the sap ladder, 1900' from the releaser and 2800' from the pump.

[Russell Lampron]

Tim,

I forgot to mention that the vacuum levels were measured on a day when we had a good sap run.

[MapleChaser]

Can I put a ladder in my 1 1/4 mainline? Can the vertical pipe stay 1 1/4? Where my dry line goes by the ladder can i put a booster line in there? Iam shooting for 28 inches of Vacum. Thanks MC

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

MC,
I have ladders in 1 and 1/4 inch but not double pipe ones. I use the stars or the "lifts" available from CDL or Leader (same thing except the price). Using the lift and a manifold I am lifting 450 taps about 12 feet. My dryline ends right at the lift. I was running 24 to 25 inches at the pump, 23 at the ladder and 21 to 22 at line ends. These ends were as much as 1500 additional feet beyond the lift and went through as many as 4 more star ladders of 4 to 8 feet in height. I am going to keep tweaking but am encouraged by my current results.
Doug

[MapleChaser]

MC,
I have ladders in 1 and 1/4 inch but not double pipe ones. I use the stars or the "lifts" available from CDL or Leader (same thing except the price). Using the lift and a manifold I am lifting 450 taps about 12 feet. My dryline ends right at the lift. I was running 24 to 25 inches at the pump, 23 at the ladder and 21 to 22 at line ends. These ends were as much as 1500 additional feet beyond the lift and went through as many as 4 more star ladders of 4 to 8 feet in height. I am going to keep tweaking but am encouraged by my current results.
Doug

I was thinking of the 1 1/4 2 pipe vertical ladder with my dry line having a booster at the top of the ladder. Then have my dry line continue all the way up threw the woods. I only need 1 ladder in my bush. This at the end of my line before it goes to the storage tank. It will have all 2500 taps coming to it. The lift will be about 15 feet. If I can not make this work I can go out around the ledge with my line up in the air 14 feet or so. More wire and pipe thats all. MC

[sapman]

MC,

I'd seriouslly consider going all the way around instead of making a ladder, if you have that option. I ran an extra 450' of 3/4 to bring in about 90 taps, instead of a ladder. I'm trying to use as few ladders as possible this year, and may run flat, or .5%, mains to accomplish this.

Tim

[sapman]

Russ,

Do you have 1" split into two 3/4 lines, or 3/4 split into two 3/4"? Or neither?

Thanks,
Tim

[Russell Lampron]

Tim,

At the bottom I have 1" to 3/4" reducing tees. At the top everything is 3/4" then goes up from 3/4" to 1" about 2 feet down the mainline. As I add more taps I may need to go up to the 1" right at the top tee. My mainlines are black and the 2' section of blue 3/4" at the top lets me see the sap flowing down the upper mainline.

[michelle32]

Hi Russ, Michelle and I would like to thank you for the tour this morning. This was greatly appreciated. Both of us found it very informative. You certainly understand things better when its hands on like that. Michelle says keep the bigger pump and tap -tap-tap- - -

[Russell Lampron]

Maple Chaser,

I don't know how the 2 pipe ladder would work with 1.25" mainline. I think you could add more 3/4" 2 pipe set ups in a series like you do with stars. I'm not sure if it would work using 1.25" pipe to make your ladder. The Ontario Study that I read gave me the idea to build the 2 pipe ladder but I think that they only used 3/4" pipe for their testing. I don't think you can run the dry line past the ladder either. You need to have the vacuum got through the ladder for it to work properly. I think that that is true for any sap ladder.

[Brent]

The Ontario paper I read last year tested many different configurations I've never tried a ladder but this year may be a first. Got about 75 trees "over the hill" and I think I've got to lift nearly 50'. Trying to figure out if I should put a tank and releaser on the other side of the hill or run a ladder. We've got about 75 on bags and bucks over there and the wife does not want to give up the traditional way completely, so we've got to to there anyway

Google "sap ladder" and you'll get a link to the paper on the Ontario Maple Syrup Producers Assoc. You can't get to the paper through their web site menus. I joined this disaster and in 9 months I could not get them to give me a password to log on the members section. Only one of the problems.
( got my money back eventually )

[Russell Lampron]

Kieth it was a pleasure to show you and Michelle around. It's good that she enjoys the maple stuff like you do. It makes it alot easier when money needs to be spent for upgrades. I think she would like a doodlebug tractor too. Thank you for the coffee, I don't remember if I thanked you yesterday.

When you are ready to do some work in your woods let me know. My son in law and I will come over and give you a hand.

[ennismaple]

Brent - You would have to "daisy chain" a lot of sap ladders together to lift 50 feet. A perfect vacuum will only lift sap about 32 feet. In reality, lifting sap 20 feet in a single lift would be about the maximum if you were running a high vacuum pump. I know there are vacuum actuated piston pumps you can buy but I don't have any experience with them.

I agree that the OMSPA website if not well set up. However, they have done a lot of good things for Ontario producers like the annual district meetings and the summer tour. We would all be paying taxes on any structures used in the sugar bush at commercial/industrial rates if it wasn't for OMSPA's meetings with the Provincial government to make MPAC back off.

[Dave Lister]

"Daisy Chain" So, does this mean its possible to have one sap ladder go up say, 10 feet, then go to your regular 1 inch tubing running at 2% or better till it gets too close to the ground and then have another sap ladder? I guess what I am asking is is it possible to get sap from the bottom of a hill up to the top of it where gravity can take charge if you have multiple sap ladders?
Not sure I would need to go this route due to the plowed road at the other side of my hill, but just curious.

I hate moving sap and would just rather it all come directly to me. :)

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Yes, you can do exactly that. Ladders are another way to lose vacuum though, so if there are more of them, there are more potential places to to have leaks, etc.