whats the big deal with these check valves?

[dano2840]

i haven't really been in the loop over the summer but i keep hearing about these check valve spouts. i havent seen one and was wondering what the big fuss is all about. i know they stop sap from flowing back into the tree and u can get a 1/2 gal/tap but how? do you have to run vacuum to make them effective or can they be run on gravity? do they make it so vac leaks dont cause back flow? fill me in please

[Haynes Forest Products]

They are for vacuum. They have a small ball that gets sucked shut when the vacuum drops. From what I see in the video after the vacuum equalizes they will open and the sap will continue to flow out of the tree. I dont think that you will get complete seperation of the saps tree side and tube side after the pressure differantel equalizes. I think the only real benifit is when the vacuum stops they dont let the sap get sucked back into the tap hole under high vacuum causing the contaminated sap from the tubing into the tree. All the extra output is based on the tap hole staying cleaner and bacteria free over a longer period of time allowing for a longer season.

I would say that its impossible to keep the two saps from mixing slightly only because they dont have springs to help close the ball sooner and keep it closed. Im sure that was tried and the cost became to high in the manufacturing. Plus the cleaning aspect of the valve will be a issue. My prediction is that we will have a forum and alot of chatter on the best way to keep them clean and not become a sourse of the bacteria from year to year.

[vtmaplemaker]

OK Guys
I have a few questions also... These where developed by a DR at Proctor correct? Who paid for the development, and testing on these? I am sure it was done with Tax Money, Donations made by Sugarmakers assoc, ect. If this was the case, how and why does leader hold the patt # on these? If we have paid for the development and testing, shouldn't we be able to get them from whoever? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to us to have all the manufactorers producing them, and put a little competition in the pricing?

This seems like kind of a inside deal to me.. Now not only is leader reaping all the benefits from manufactoring these thing, but they are making it so you have to buy their stubbies too.. Why not make it a one piece throwaway that connects direct to the drop like lapierre has? (I guess because they can make more off us this way)

I guess I am just having a problem padding Leaders pocket (which god knows we have all done a whole bunch of allready) buying something that we all have money in the development and testing when in my oppinion we should have some competition....

[jason grossman]

if you all really want to get a half gallon ( i do now) or chase a gallon like i am i believe less in new fittings and more in thinnings and woodlot management!

[brookledge]

Another thing they will do is in the event that you have a frozen lateral or mainline and the sap has begun to flow in some spots they will keep the sap from going into tap holes that aren't flowing yet.
As with anything first one to production on a new idea gets to reap the benifits. I know what you mean about spending grant money etc. but lets just say nobody came up with the idea for years to come. I for one want to use them if it has been proven to increase yield more than the cost of the adapter.
Look at all the other items over the years that have been R&D over the years. When I started making syrup for instance there was no such thing as a RO I'm sure alot of grant money was spent on R&D for them. Another big item that gets alot of money spent on is the rest of the tubing and fittings.
When I started in the 70's the tubing sucked to todays standards, so I'm glad they are spending my money to improve my operation
Keith

[killingworthmaple]

I went to a seminar on the check valves at Bascoms this spring and the facts are very convincing and they more than pay for themselves with the extra sap that you get.

[KenWP]

I am sure that they will give some benifit even to gravity users. I think they would work for bukets also so that you have a closed hole. I am waiting to hear from users on here next year and it would be nice to hear about honest to goodness returns that are higher then normal.The average seems to be around 3 pounds a tap so a little better then that would pay for the extra expense. Then we can complain about more then one person bragging about his sugar bush.

[3rdgen.maple]

Call me stupid but Im still confused how one season is gonna tell if these things are sliced bread or not. There are way to many variables from season to season. If you go back through the years just on the trader alone you will get reports on what a great year we had and reports on what a bad year the next one was etc. Another thought I had was these things are gonna extend your season by a few weeks, somebody better let mother nature know that so the trees can hold out on budding so we can get premium sap out of them. If your holes are not producing and mother nature is cooperating why not just ream your holes. However I do understand the contamination aspect of them and I think this is what the selling point of these new taps should be focused on. I think I will stick with buckets till you guys give a report on them after a few seasons. This reminds me of the guys at the racetracks who gotta have the latest and greatest and get beat on the track by the guys with the 18 year old racecar who spends the time in the garage and not the money in there wallets.:) Im gonna get in trouble for this one aren't I?

[howden86]

If these checkvalves are to keep sap from reentering the tap hole when the vaccum is shut off why can't we just install one check valve on the main line by the vaccum pump or have a ball valve we can close.

Tom

[Haynes Forest Products]

The check valve needs to be as close to the area you want to protect and thats right next to the tap hole. I would like to know how much back flow they need to shut and seal. I think its a great concept I just dont know how well they stop all cross contamination.

I dont feel like im lining anyones pockes if I buy a product that I want and need and dont have the ability to make myself. I think whats great about any industry is that someone is always trying to get rich buy inventing the next "must have item" and its not always the big evil corporation that does it.

[vermaple]

[QUOTE=vtmaplemaker;81693]OK Guys
how and why does leader hold the patt # on these?[QUOTE

It is my understanding that UVM (Proctor Center) holds the patent on the adapters. Leader is probably paying UVM for every adapter they sell, and hold an exclusive on them for their part in the devopment of the adapter.

[Homestead Maple]

OK Guys
I have a few questions also... These where developed by a DR at Proctor correct? Who paid for the development, and testing on these? I am sure it was done with Tax Money, Donations made by Sugarmakers assoc, ect. If this was the case, how and why does leader hold the patt # on these? If we have paid for the development and testing, shouldn't we be able to get them from whoever? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to us to have all the manufactorers producing them, and put a little competition in the pricing?

This seems like kind of a inside deal to me.. Now not only is leader reaping all the benefits from manufactoring these thing, but they are making it so you have to buy their stubbies too.. Why not make it a one piece throwaway that connects direct to the drop like lapierre has? (I guess because they can make more off us this way)

I guess I am just having a problem padding Leaders pocket (which god knows we have all done a whole bunch of allready) buying something that we all have money in the development and testing when in my oppinion we should have some competition....
I have found that they will fit on a few other stubbies besides Leaders.

[NH Maplemaker]

I have found that they will fit on a few other stubbies besides Leaders.

Don't say that to loud or they won't ! The thing that gets me is all this fitting changing all the time! Talk about a waste of money! Jim L.

[3rdgen.maple]

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/agricultural_sciences/spout_doubles_maple_production_1_million_advance_1 38037.html Here is an article about the spouts for you guys who have not read anything on them. From what I gather the benefit is the extension of the season from the holes not closing off earlier. Also it says leader holds the license on them nothing about the patent. Which pretty much means proctor needed a someone to sell them so leader payed for the rights to them. Drill smaller ream later. How much are these check valves sellling for? Here is another link to an article on them. Read the notes as well. I don't mean to sound so negative I just hate to see people spend there hard earned money and be dissapointed.http://northernwoodlands.org/editors_blog/article/new_spout_has_sugarmakers_talking

[ennismaple]

I've heard (but haven't confirmed myself) that the only stubbies they don't fit are the CDL stubbies. As I've mentioned before, I'm conducting my own study next season to see how well they really work. I've got one bush that I know how well it runs relative to the other bushes - that ratio shouldn't change much from year to year. If adding the check valve reducers to this one bush is the only change I make (and it will be) then the additional flows attributable to the Leader check valves should be easy to calculate.

[DrTimPerkins]

Gentlemen (and Ladies),

I've read the posts here for some time with some interest, but never posted. I'd like to make just a few comments. I apologize in advance for the length of this message, and am sorry that I will likely NOT answer questions in response to this post. Please do not interpret this as my being evasive, but simply do to the fact that I do not have the time (it would quickly become a full-time job) to answer every question. We do have other projects besides the CV-adapter (stay tuned on that one....more to come....in another year or two).

1. The CV adapter was not a simple "toss this out there and see if it sticks" product. It was developed and tested over a 2.5+ year period. Those who know our philosophy understand that we rarely release experimental results of anything until we've had at least two seasons working with it. We tested lots of possible varients before building some CV-spout prototypes during the first season, and then, working with Leader Evaporator Co., we developed a commercial model which we tested in the second season.

2. UVM funds paid for the development, although federal funding did pay for an assessment of how well they worked during the 2nd season. This is not unlike the way we assess LOTS of different types of equipment. The licensing fee is fairly modest, however the profit margin on spouts/fittings isn't very large either. UVM is not going to get rich on this product. Our hope is that it will provide some benefit to the maple industry....but....research is not cheap, so any ideas with possible commercial value are licensed.

3. UVM holds the patent (pending) and exclusively licensed the rights to this technology to Leader Evaporator Co.. Under the agreement, Leader does have the ability to sub-license to other companies if they want to and can agree on terms with the other company. The reason that Leader has the exclusive license is that they were the ONLY company that both expressed interest and agreed to sign the UVM non-disclosure agreement to allow full disclosure of what we knew. Other companies had the same opportunity. Leader put significant time and resources into the development process. Just building a mold to allow test spouts to be made runs into many thousands of dollars.

4. It is impossible to make a spout adapter that will fit on all the existing spout stubbies. We tried....they are simply too different to make it work. The CV-adapter will fit more than just Leaders stubby, but it couldn't be made to fit them all. However if other companies wish to, they can discuss with Leader the possibility of sub-licensing the technology in its current form, or they can sublicense the technology from Leader and then I can work with them to integrate the concept into their own spout system.

5. The CV-adapter was developed for use in vacuum tubing systems, however research at Cornell demonstrated that check-valves may also work for gravity tubing operations. We never tested them in that way.

6. The CV-adapter is NOT a magic bullet. It will not allow you to make 1 gal per tap unless you're doing everything else right and Mother Nature cooperates. However the CV adapter should help to substantially improve sap yield under most normal vacuum sap collection methods. It is simply one more tool that sugarmakers can use if they choose to do so. The CV-adapter functions in two ways: A) during short runs (typically early season), the tree may produce only a small amount of sap. Research has shown that trees can reabsorb up to 1.5 pints during refreezing. The CV-adapter prevents this reabsorbtion, and thus results in small increases in yield each time trees freeze up. B) the CV-adapter prevents back-flow of sap from the droplines/lateral lines into trees. Microorganisms in the sap initiate the wound-healing process which cause tapholes to dry out. The CV-adapter delays, but doesn't totally prevent this from occurring, with the result that the tapholes tend to stay open a bit longer at the end of the season (probably 1-3 weeks). Obviously much will depend upon the weather at the end of the season, but in essence, the CV-adapter functions similarly to the paraformaldehyde tablet (it delays microbial growth in the taphole, thereby keeping sap running longer), but the CV-adapter does this mechanically rather than chemically, so it is safe for the tree and safe for people.

7. We explored other methods to accomplish this, including silver-ion techology. Research exploring antimicrobial silver in maple operations dates back to at least the 1950s (at the same time they were looking at paraformaldehyde). We have done extensive research on this subject for the past few years. Like other researchers before us, we've concluded that antimicrobial silver was not a viable solution (otherwise we might have patented it ourselves). It does work to some degree...but only the first year. In our experimentation, the efficacy of the silver dropped off and was not significant by the second season of use. We confirmed this in laboratory studies using silver-impregnated tubing of various ages. Therefore the cost of replacing the silver-doped spouts and/or droplines became prohibitively expensive. Furthermore, if your operation is organic certified, antimicrobial silver is definitely not permitted. It has yet to be explored how much silver ends up in syrup (probably not a lot, but that should be verified), or how the wounding in the tree could be affected (unknown...but this is why paraformaldehyde was eventually banned). We hope to have a paper on this subject available for the January 2010 "Maple Digest".

8. Like any collection tool or method, there are certain indications where the CV-adapter will most likely help, and some applications where the use of CV-adapters may not help as much.

9. Like ALL spout adapters, the CV-adapter is meant for one-season use and should be replaced (not cleaned) at the end of the season. The reason for this is that due to microbial biofilms, you will never be able to totally clean the adapter back to its original level of cleanliness. It is the same reason why they don't reuse tubing in medical practice....you simply cannot totally clean these systems. Much like you want that needle going into your arm at the hospital to be brand-new, you also want the spout adapter....the interface between your sap collection system and the tree...to be as clean as possible. A new adapter alone will usually pay for itself in increased sap yield (10-15% increase). Cleaning those adapters might save you a few dollars upfront, but it'll cost you far more than that in lost syrup down the road (although you might never realize what you've lost).

10. There are ways to "cheat" the CV adapter by sucking very slowly on the spout to make it seem like it will leak. This doesn't mimic what happens in trees. Trees can have a rather large vacuum in them, but very little CFM. They will immediately pull back the ball-valve rapidly in response to vacuum loss in the system, and then very quickly (minutes) the system will equilibrate, and the valve will reopen as sap begins to flow and vacuum begins to reestablish in the tubing system. We have watched this in trees many times. Is the system perfect....no...there may be an occasional leaker here and there, but it will stop the large backflow of sap into the taphole on most occasions, which is what it was designed to do. One way to inadvertantly "break" the system is to pound the stubbies on too tightly. In general, twisting a stubby on tightly by hand is sufficient. Tapping lightly with a hammer is also OK, but pounding on them is not necessary, and can cause the internal portion of the stub to deform and press on the internal portion of the CV-adapter, possibly causing it to malfunction.

A paper describing the development and testing of the CV-adapter is scheduled to be published in the October edition of the "Maple Digest", and will be posted on the UVM PMRC website as soon as it is available.

Dr. Timothy Perkins, Director
University of Vermont
Proctor Maple Research Center

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thanks for the second artical 3rdGen. That cleared up a few questions like how little flow is needed to close them and it looks like very little because the ball and hole are very close in tolerance. That brings up a big question under a one years study by both the inventor and the manufacturer how careful were they out in the bush drilling holes. I only have a limited amount of time that I can spend drilling and tapping. When I tap and I see wood that is sticking out of the hole I blow it out of the hole and pound the tap in. I dont sit there with a sterial SS probe or carry a CO2 tank and clean the holes. I will say I like the concept BUT what about wood that would flow out the tap hole or not block the spout will it hang up the spout ball? Will it keep it from closing? When the ball closes and bacteria builds up on the back side of the ball what happens when the ball closes with the dirty side in? I think alot of the good press is as the artical says is because the Proctor research center does everything by the book.

[Snow Hill Farm]

Thank you Dr. Perkins for the post! No problem with being long because all of the points are very necessary to fully explain a great new product and hopefully cure a lot of the skepticism out there. I felt the best point is that not everyone will make a gallon per tap, but you will see some level of increase in sap flow.

[mapleack]

Thanks Dr. Perkins for taking the time to post. Hopefully your post will clear up alot of uncertainties and speculation.

[DrTimPerkins]

How careful were they out in the bush drilling holes.

We did nothing different than normal. We don't blow out, flush out, or sanitize the tapholes. Just drill them (with care, which everyone should do) and insert the spout adapter, seat it with a hammer, then push the stubby onto the adapter and tap it lightly.

What about wood that would flow out the tap hole or not block the spout will it hang up the spout ball? Will it keep it from closing?

Theoretically possible, and probably does happen to some extent, but we did not see it impacting flow. Per normal practice, use a clean and sharp drill bit to reduce wood shavings.

When the ball closes and bacteria builds up on the back side of the ball what happens when the ball closes with the dirty side in?

The ball stays relatively clean because it rolls and bounces around inside the "straw", thus it is relatively self-cleaning (you don't end up with a dirty and clean side). We had some clear spouts made up that allowed us to see inside the spout during flow. The ball stayed fairly clean.

TP

[PATheron]

Dr. Perkins- Do you think there is any benefit to using the checkvalves to a producer like myself that uses new adapters every year and never shuts the pump off unless the laterals are froze solid? Thanks, Theron

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thanks Dr. Perkins for the answers to the questions I had and submitted before I read your post. I have had the joy and heartache of trying to have a mold made for and built for injection molding and that was without a moving part in it so I can only amagine the shelf of prototypes sitting on the wall. I know time is always valuble if you decide to reply sometime why and how effective is the plastic that playground equipment is made of that bills itself as "antibacterial" ? Thanks again for your fair response to our concerns. HFP

Dr one last thing please sell the clear plastic ones at a premium price to cover new products we in the maple industry love to sit and stare at moving parts and I know that walking the woods staring at the ball move back and forth every time the releaser dumps will bring me and my buddies great joy in the woods. I think a small inline flow meter for laterals out of one of the many molds sitting around would be a nice seller.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Perkins- Do you think there is any benefit to using the checkvalves to a producer like myself that uses new adapters every year and never shuts the pump off unless the laterals are froze solid? Thanks, Theron

Do you ever have leaks in your woods? Do you have a mechanical releaser? Do you ever have spouts heave in the woods that you need to reseat? Do you ever pull spouts to check vacuum? Each of those things will result in localized or system wide backflow of sap.

The more any of those things happen, the more CV adapters should help. If you can guarantee that sap won't move backward in your system, you will have less of a gain. However, the more freezes you have during the season, the more small gains you will get. We calculate that it is up to 1 pint per tap gain per freeze cycle. So you get 10 freezes per season....you get around 10 pints extra sap per tap.

[DrTimPerkins]

why and how effective is the plastic that playground equipment is made of that bills itself as "antibacterial" ?
...
please sell the clear plastic ones at a premium price......
...
I think a small inline flow meter for laterals out of one of the many molds sitting around would be a nice seller.

The response to the first question would take a really long message. Many of the products that use an antimicrobial chemical (not silver) -- these aren't permitted in maple use (unless you want to get it registered with the EPA as a pesticide....in that case I hope you have lots of $). Even antimicrobial silver could not be advertised as a way to keep tapholes cleaner...it can only be advertised as protecting the actual product the silver is incorporated into from becoming fouled with microbes. You likely won't see any mention of it increasing sap yields....that would trigger the EPA to consider it a pesticide and start asking questions. Relatively few products use silver (some doorknobs, socks, drinking fountains and other things do). The relative efficacy and longevity of efficacy in those cases varies greatly due to contact, soiling, the material it is being used in, etc. One problem with silver in maple applications in particular seems to be that the sheer number of microbes can rapidly exhaust or overwhelm the ability of silver to migrate through the "carrier" particles to the surface. We're talking sugar water....and lots of microbes (millions per cc of sap). This problem isn't unprecedented....ozone is a great disinfectant for water systems, yet it utterly fails as a disinfectant for sap, due to the number and variety of microbes in the system, and the protective effect of sugar on the microorganisms. It is a fascinating subject. As I said, we are not the first to look at antimicrobial silver in maple. It was tried decades ago, but abandoned. There are a couple of papers with some mention of the subject. The other good point this subject highlights is the need for good research, and in maple systems, more than one season of research. The first year we worked with it seemed good (almost as good as the CV). The second year it absolutely didn't have any effect whatsoever. Perhaps others can make it work, but I'd need to see the studies to show it.

In regards to producing clear CV adapters....I agree....they are neat to watch. Only a handful of clear CV adapters were made. However I don't make the decisions on that one. I have no hand in the production or marketing of the commercial product....not my end of the business. We did the research, and will continue to do more on this and other subjects. I do know that it is lots harder to make a clear spout than a normal spout made of food-grade nylon. The molding process is more difficult apparently.

Finally, if you find an in-line flow meter that will work reliably in lateral lines...give me a call. We've tried and not found anything suitable. The problem is that sugar tends to bind up the impeller type flowmeter. The flow range is also problematic in that finding one that will work under both weeping flows and maximum flows is next to impossible. They also don't like to freeze up. Lastly, they are darned expensive....even for us.

TP

[3rdgen.maple]

Yes I am 1 of the skeptics, the reason being is I am gonna upgrade to vacume and I work hard for my money and I like to spend it right the first time. I was gonna put vac. in this year but held off partly because I want to see the results of new adaptors. I am glad to hear Dr. Perkins not trying to oversell them by saying things like , it obviously depends on weather, they are not a magic bullet, if mother nature cooperates, etc.... Up till one other article all I have read is these things are the golden ticket in the chocolate bar. I run when something is being oversold as it usually is a flop. Thank you for that.
So in response to the previous post I have some questions as well.

We calculate that it is up to 1 pint per tap gain per freeze cycle. So you get 10 freezes per season....you get around 10 pints extra sap per tap.

So 2 things come to mind if you were to install a valve at the end of your vac. line and opened it before you shut off the pump would it not drain the lines and prevent backflow or like some do, just not shut your vac off until freeze up?

Do you ever have spouts heave in the woods that you need to reseat? Do you ever pull spouts to check vacuum? Each of those things will result in localized or system wide backflow of sap.

Will the new cv adaptors eliminate these problems as well?

[brookledge]

That was nice to get those responses from Dr. Perkins. Telling it as a researcher and not as a sales pitch. As I said previously when I started using tubing in the 70's it was junk compared to today's standards. Keep up the research. I know there was talk of increasing the penny per jug that is voluntarily contributed to research. I contribute now and will continued to do so
Keith

[DrTimPerkins]

...if you were to install a valve at the end of your vac. line and opened it before you shut off the pump would it not drain the lines and prevent backflow or like some do, just not shut your vac off until freeze up?

Installing a valve at the end of your vac line and opening it will introduce air. Assuming you have been pulling vacuum for a period of time, the pressure in the tree will be quite negative. Therefore the result will be strong backflow of sap into the taphole. To avoid this you would want to have a very tight system and shut off the valve to NOT let in air, but to allow the small leaks in the system to very slowly bleed in air. This will minimize strong backflow, but not totally eliminate it.

Not shutting off the vacuum until freeze up will also help, however the entire woods does not freeze at the same rate, and there are frequently areas of the woods that freeze more slowly than others. Unfrozen sap can move through some amount of ice. So again, using this method will reduce the problem, but will not totally eliminate it. As I said earlier, the CV spout adapter is a tool, much as these methods are tools. All of them help to some degree, and all will work together to maximize production.

Do you ever have spouts heave in the woods that you need to reseat? Do you ever pull spouts to check vacuum? Each of those things will result in localized or system wide backflow of sap.

Will the new cv adaptors eliminate these problems as well?

No, obviously they were not designed to do those things. But they do serve to reduce one of the more negative consequences of those things occurring, sap backflow causing microbial contamination of tapholes leading to taphole drying and reduction in sap flow. One of the things we concentrate on at UVM PMRC is high yield production. We utilize many of these techniques, and have produced an average of more than 0.5 gal syrup per tap each of the past 6 years using these practices. The CV spout adapter took us to the next level of production. That was our goal. The biggest problem, according to our head sugarmaker Brian Stowe is that, "...if we put these throughout our sugarbush, we'll need bigger tanks and a bigger R.O."

[3rdgen.maple]

Im starting to like these check valves. Thank you for the honesty and not the sales pitch as well, it means alot to hear that. Sorry for being a skeptic but as you might have guessed I was raised old school sugaring and I am looking forward to upgrading to vacume soon. I now you are a busy man but what are the advantages of using a stubby? Why not just have a check valve with a connection for the tubing? As for everyone putting up with questions my apologies but that is why I am here to learn. Again thank you for your responses and posting to all of us. By the way this place is addicting, you might get bit and be a regular before you know it.

[Homestead Maple]

I've had the opportunity to sit in on some of Dr. Perkins talks at different forums and I've always enjoyed what he has had to talk about. He is very thorough on his studies and presentations. I look forward to future studies by him. Thank you for all your work.

[220 maple]

Thank You Dr. Perkins,
Your info confirms the info that my Leader equipment salesman told me about the new check valve adapters, he also told me that Leader has a video of blue dye going back into a tree without the check valve. I would assume the video was made at the research facility?

You last comment is the one that concerns me the most. The fact that Brian the head sugarmaker won't be able to handle the extra sap. I'm not concern about extra sap I concerned about a glut of Maple syrup on the market. I know sometimes I probably sound like chicken little with the sky is falling, but I believe the U of Vermont Business/Economics Department needs to study the effects of every potential tap with high vacuum producing a half gallon to gallon of syrup to the taphole. Just this past season Wisconsin producers had their best season ever. And from what I have read on this message board some can't find brokers to buy their extra syrup.

Again Thanks for posting. Is there anyway that producers can leave messages for yourself or other researchers. I often wondered why some researcher has not come up with someway to test sap water that might be buddy before it's put in the evaporator and energy is wasted to find out for sure?


Mark 220 Maple
Producing Syrup in the South

[3rdgen.maple]

220 I might get myself in trouble again but go to their website and he list his phone number and e-mail address

[KenWP]

I would say that a system where extra syrup is stored for the lean years is needed in other places other then Quebec also. They store so much each year so that there is not a price jump from year to year.
My older freind who has made syrup his whole life guestions the taps as they try and suck the lines dry every night. But also I think that running vacuum pumps 24-7 is either greed or makes no sense to run a motor and pump for hours upon hours for no reason. The extra carbon imprint must be huge.

[DrTimPerkins]

..Leader has a video of blue dye going back into a tree without the check valve. I would assume the video was made at the research facility?

...I'm not concern about extra sap I concerned about a glut of Maple syrup on the market. .....And from what I have read on this message board some can't find brokers to buy their extra syrup.

.... Is there anyway that producers can leave messages for yourself or other researchers.

I often wondered why some researcher has not come up with someway to test sap water that might be buddy before it's put in the evaporator and energy is wasted to find out for sure?


Yes, there are photos and videos of sap moving back into trees. Took many of them myself.

There is no large surplus of syrup like there used to be. This years good crop was necessary for world markets, otherwise the price would have skyrocketed, then crashed as demand slowed. The only folks I know of who haven't sold their syrup around here are those who were hoping for last years prices, when syrup was scarce.

Feel free to call or email me anytime with questions. I can't spend hours on the phone with everyone, but do enjoy chatting with maple producers. My original post was largely due to the fact that I've been getting several calls and emails daily about the CV spout adapter, so figured I'd just get the message out to a large group at one time.

As for buddy sap....there are tests, but they are very expensive and take time. Nothing simple....yet.

TP

[DrTimPerkins]

My older freind who has made syrup his whole life guestions the taps as they try and suck the lines dry every night.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but how does one "suck the lines dry" unless you have a valve at the far end to open? And by opening the valve (under vacuum), you've created a massive leak, and extreme backflow of sap up the lateral lines into the trees. That is exactly the situation that the CV spout adapter aims to prevent.

I do understand the reluctance on the part of some people to try things that are different. No problem there. However we very often get people who continue to recommend doing things that have been shown many times to be poor practice. Venting of gravity tubing sytems is a great example of that. Several studies have shown that this significantly reduces sap yield, but some people still do it, and swear by it. It is one of those things where the eye fools you. Lots of traps like that in maple unfortunately.

TP

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dr Perkins I'm one of those people that is easly entertained and find myself sitting and watching moving things for long periods of time. I still wonder does sap move air are does air move sap in the laterals. To me it looks like the air is moving over the sap in the tubing.

Have you injected dye into a working system and followed the results to the mainline and will food color work? will the dye disipate during cooking.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Not sure why we get so much anti-American on here as most of the members are US citizens. Leader is the only major player in the industry and it seems most on here are more interested in bashing them than anything else. Appears to me they have been very interested the last 5 years in developing new technology and are currently working on a high efficiency arch along with possibly some other projects too.

[KenWP]

If I can get a few of these valves I would like to try them . I know my gravity ststem didn't work worth beans and I think it would work better if the trees can't suck back on me. What I don't know is if there is any Leader dealers in Quebec and I am not a mail order kind of person.

[3rdgen.maple]

I don't think it has much to do with anti american but has more to do with pricing and how much money we think a product is actually worth. We all work hard for our money and want to spend it wisely.

[Randy Brutkoski]

The check valve cost the same as a normal health spout. So i dont think they are taking us for a ride. Leader could of easily made more money on the new spout. .35 cents they cost.

[3rdgen.maple]

The check valve cost the same as a normal health spout. So i dont think they are taking us for a ride. Leader could of easily made more money on the new spout. .35 cents they cost.

I agree Randy they are priced very well. I was just responding to pricing in general not specifically to the new check valves. On another note I heard that Bascom's has ordered 100,000 of the new check valves to try on his own sugarbush and to sell as well. I am guessing as long as the original purchase is from Leader any dealer can resell them. I bet you Bascom's is not selling them for 35 cents.

[Jim Brown]

I talked to my dealer last evening and he has 40,000 on order and my cost will be .35 cents. I'm going to put 350 in my small bush to see if it makes a difference if so I will put all mine on them the following year

Just my two cents :)

Jim

[Randy Brutkoski]

Actually it is your 35 cents

[DrTimPerkins]

...does sap move air are does air move sap in the laterals. To me it looks like the air is moving over the sap in the tubing.

Have you injected dye into a working system and followed the results to the mainline and will food color work? will the dye disipate during cooking.

Sorry for the delay. I was away for several days.

Both sap and air (which is CO2 enriched) move in the sap lines. The rate of movement of each will vary with sap and air production from the tree and leaks (if there are reasonable size leaks, you will sometimes see bubbles moving quickly though the lines as the air will move much faster under these conditions). It is not easy to see bulk flow of either sap or air in a good tight system.

Yes, it is possible to use dye to get some idea of liquid flow rate in the lines. No, the dye will not dissipate upon boiling, it will concentrate, however it will also be diluted by the greater volume of sap. When we've done this, we discard the sap. You can also visualize sap backflow using the dye method.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Back to the clear spout issue, I am on vacation the rest of the week and plan to make up for all the tons of hours of overtime I worked this summer and install some new taps. I installed 25 new taps in a couple hours this afternoon as I like the Lappiere spouts and "T"'s with cups the best. The new Lappierre "T"s I got from the maple guys this year have a solid barb on the back aprox 1/2" long. I didn't think much about it at first, but then realized that this is to plug the tubing off at the end of the season after you remove the seasonal spouts if you chose to remove them when washing instead of waiting until next season when you put on a new spout. It is tight which is should be, but the tubing pushes on without too much trouble. I only tried new tubing which was the translucent Lappierre tubing which is all I use and I imagine if the seasonal spouts had been pushed in and out a couple of years, it would be a touch easier. Wish I had gotten a few to try now that I see how these are designed.

2 Thumbs up for the design!

[Haynes Forest Products]

I like the Ts with the spout plug on the back makes pulling taps and putting up for the season. I have a container of the blue tap plugs I dont know why I dont throw them out. The woods are litterd with them:emb:

[MrBig892]

Has anyone considered that a tiny piece of wood fiber would hold the check valve open? I believe the simpler the better, so am sticking with the regular health spout.
While the check valve may work well under Ideal clean conditions, I'm not yet sold on their total effectiveness, or durability.

[Russell Lampron]

A small chip of wood getting stuck in the check valve is a possibility but not all of them will get wood chips stuck in them. I have heard of other possible problems with dirt and bent fingers and such that can be a problem with installation. The increased cost over a standard adapter, slower tapping speed because you have to be more careful and what you actually get for increased production are all things that you will have to weigh out to decide if they are right for you. I am a small producer with just over 500 taps and I am going to try 100 of them this season to do my own test.

[dschultz]

Has anybody asked what the restriction of sap flow the check valve will have over a regular tap because of the ball in them?

[brookledge]

With the vacuum pulling on it, it will not restict the flow coming out. Remember the flow rate of a single tap is relitively slow so it is not likely to restict the flow. And that would definately been a concern tested during R&D of the adapter.
Keith

[Homestead Maple]

Has anyone considered that a tiny piece of wood fiber would hold the check valve open? I believe the simpler the better, so am sticking with the regular health spout.
While the check valve may work well under Ideal clean conditions, I'm not yet sold on their total effectiveness, or durability. (Dr. Perkins comments on tap holes for the check valve taps)
How careful were they out in the bush drilling holes.

We did nothing different than normal. We don't blow out, flush out, or sanitize the tapholes. Just drill them (with care, which everyone should do) and insert the spout adapter, seat it with a hammer, then push the stubby onto the adapter and tap it lightly.

What about wood that would flow out the tap hole or not block the spout will it hang up the spout ball? Will it keep it from closing?

Theoretically possible, and probably does happen to some extent, but we did not see it impacting flow. Per normal practice, use a clean and sharp drill bit to reduce wood shavings.

When the ball closes and bacteria builds up on the back side of the ball what happens when the ball closes with the dirty side in?

The ball stays relatively clean because it rolls and bounces around inside the "straw", thus it is relatively self-cleaning (you don't end up with a dirty and clean side). We had some clear spouts made up that allowed us to see inside the spout during flow. The ball stayed fairly clean.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Actully i am having 2nd thoughts about buying them. I ordered 3000 of the new spouts 4 weeks ago which were suposed to be in a week or 2 ago but 2 leader reps. told me they were having issues with production. All of the balls were not constructed the same. If you bounced 2 of them side by side, 1 would not bounce hardly at all and the other 1 would like to hang around in the air forever. It is getting closer and closer to the season and i am afraid they are going to rush this thing along so they can get these sold before the season. I hope i am wrong. Could Dr. Perkins answer this new problem. thanks

[3rdgen.maple]

Curious what the guys who preordered months ago think about this. Did they give any indication of when they expect to deliver? I would caugh it up to the new product delimas that happen frequintely in any new product production. I'm sure leader will get it straightened out.

[vtmaplemaker]

Dear Dr. Tim

Come on:

Research has shown that trees can reabsorb up to 1.5 pints during refreezing. The CV-adapter prevents this reabsorbtion, and thus results in small increases in yield each time trees freeze up.

Ok, so you have 5 taps on a latteral, which would "possibly reabsorb" 7.5 pints of sap, nearly 1 gallon of sap per latteral.

A typical latteral line of 100 feet long and 5 taps would hold:

V=3.1416*5/16(squared)*Length

V=3.1416*.0244140625cu inches*1200 inches

V=92.03 cubic inches

92.03 cubic inches = .39 Gallons

.39 Gallons = 49.92 oz

There you go,under 1/2 a gallon of sap in 100 feet of 5/16 tubing completely full.


So either you have roughly 240 - 250 foot long latterals, or better yet you are actually getting sap to climb back up from the tank, through the releaser, up the main lines and back in to each and every latteral going through the saddles and then finally making the long journey complete by ending up at the tap hole to fulfill the endless thirst of the tree.

I hope it does not freeze too much this year, without the magic spouts I'll owe sap at the end of the season to the trees.

I can't wait till people are calling for their money back when you can't give them the 50-90% increase in sap as you claim. But I'm sure there will be a loop hole in the clause that they didn't install the tubing correctly.

Can't wait for the next research out of your facility.
And our tax dollars paid for this, I'd like to see a P&L Statement on the funding of the program.
I've walked all over that Sh*Thole and never seen any tricks worth paying for. just a few nice buildings that are furnished with nice equipment and goodies. Spend some time in the woods tuning things up a bit.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dear Mr vtmaplemaker: Why dont you fold up the tin foil conspericy hat your wearing and try and be a little respectful and quit with the (MY TAX DOLLARS) CRAP. Redo your math without the word "Typical" in the math equation. Most of my latterals are over 200' with more than 10 trees on them. If you dont want, like, or think they are a good idea thats fine. Please dont build a straw man and then knock it down because your pissed at the Corporate world. I think there is another CHAT site you will feel right at home on.

[Russell Lampron]

I have been in my woods and have seen the sap flow backwards into the tap hole. I had just finished tapping my last tap of the day and was on my way back to the mainline when the sap in the lateral froze at the mainline end. The vacuum in the trees pulled the unfrozen sap back up the drops and into the trees. It gave me a better understanding of why the check valve is needed.

Vtmaplemaker if you were in your woods observing things instead of sitting by the evaporator drinking boiling sodas you too might see where this new technology will help you get more sap.

[Randy Brutkoski]

I am sorry for stiring this thread up. Just concerned thats all.

[vtmaplemaker]

Just pointing out some very obvious facts. Show me the video on youtube that illustrates the 1.5 pints per tree going into the tap hole, and I'll believe it. But you show me how 1.5 pints can flow into into each tree when the capacity of a real installation of 5/16 latteral can't hold the volume of sap.

Just step outside the box and think on your own.

I even gave the benefit of the 5/16 tubing as the ID on the tube, when in reality it is even less than I calculated.

I have seen those check valves with balls missing in them, and after one season of use you can suck through them with the balls installed. So how is that possible? Must have been a very rare extreme example, but 3 of 4 check valve adaptors I randomly tested were junk. 1 - Missing ball, 2 - You could blow air through and suck air freely right back to the tree, 1- worked.

If you don't have accurate numbers on one "fact" from this extensive research, how can you believe the rest of the numbers?

Fired up!!! Ready to Go!!!!

[DrTimPerkins]

All of the balls were not constructed the same. If you bounced 2 of them side by side, 1 would not bounce hardly at all and the other 1 would like to hang around in the air forever. It is getting closer and closer to the season and i am afraid they are going to rush this thing along so they can get these sold before the season. I hope i am wrong. Could Dr. Perkins answer this new problem. thanks

You actually addressed your own concern to some degree. The reason why you don't have any of the CV adapters yet is that we want to be sure that the system is perfect as can be BEFORE they are produced and distributed. Buying a few thousand balls is one thing, buying a few million is another, and we had to do some extensive quality control tests to ensure all was well. We finished our last approval test on Friday, and production has started.

[DrTimPerkins]

I will not respond directly to some of the more rude and insulting questions, especially those who aren't willing to show their real names. I am happy to answer honest questions from those on this forum.

1. You need not believe me on the fact of reabsorption of sap. It has been well documented by several researchers and sugarmakers since the time tubing has been used. Marvin and Greene have an excellent paper on this from 1959. Those studies were done before the advent of artificial vacuum, which greatly exacerbates the problem. Hundreds of gallons of water are sucked up from the soil during each recharge cycle...the water is going to the same place as the sap when pulled from tubing systems.

2. Although it is commonly said by some people (who probably never used the CV adapter in the woods) that the balls will come out, there are NO documented instances of balls being sucked out of the adapter. It doesn't happen. What I have seen is people who do things like poke out the ball and replace it with something different. Then they try to claim it doesn't work right or leaks. Similarly, some like to talk about wood chips, or dirt (where does that come from), or bacteria clogging up the check-valve....I addressed that in an earlier post. To reiterate...it doesn't appear to be a substantial problem.

3. Like ALL replaceable spout adapters, the CV adapter is made for a single-season use and then is replaced. If you try to clean and reuse ANY type of replaceable spout adapter, you shouldn't complain if they don't work as well as advertised.

4. The logic and mathematical abilities of a poster asks how 1.5 pints of sap can fit inside a single taphole during reabsorption. Quick answer...the same way 0.5 gal of sap (or more) can come out of a taphole during a single flow. The sap isn't coming from the volume of the hole...it is coming from the wood vessels. During reabsorption, the sap flows back into these same vessels.

The CV spout adapter had two years of research behind it -- far more than most other products that make it to market. As I have said before, it will not solve all your problems, it isn't going to work to the same degree each season (due to the differences in how the season runs its course), and it isn't going to guarantee that you'll make over a gallon of syrup per tap, but it is another tool that producers can use to boost their yields.

Again, please don't take my lack of comment or a delay in response to questions as an indication that we do not have answers. And....I will not answer questions that are not asked in the uncivil manner of some recent posts.

[Mark]

Thank you Dr. Perkins for posting on this board.
After a few minutes looking at the check valve adapters I ordered 20,000 of them. When tapping that many taps I end up tapping when the sap is starting to run and have always felt that the plain adapters were a waste of time because I was getting sap pulled back before we even got the vacuum going for the season.

[maplwrks]

Thanks Tim for trying to clear the air! Don't take the comments that vtmaplemaker posted personal--He has been banned from this forum once before for going off on his rants. There will always be skeptics with anything new, and the truth is, that these will work, IF, the rest of the system is COMPLETELY air tight. Unforunately, these adapters will be made the scapegoat on a lot of sub par tubing systems that these adapters are installed into when the #s don't add up.

[Mark]

One more thing I would like to add is that I see us making more of the end of the season syrup with the adapters. With more of the dark syrup I don't see the price staying as high as it has for the last stuff. It will be more important to keep the quality up. I have started changing out my black mainlines to Leaders translucent blue to help keep the sap temps down.

[3rdgen.maple]

Why in the world would anyone be disrespectfull to a research center that is for the benefit of maple producers. I can think of many dumb ways our tax dollars have no benefit to me. So if the case may be that some of it is helping the maple industry so be it, atleast I see some results from that money. Have some respect and be thankful that people care about our maple production enough to spend their lives trying to better our productions. It is not like the anybody is shoving these check valves down our throats and not having any say if we want them or not. Fact of the matter is if you don't like them don't buy them. Dr. Tim Perkins and affiliates keep up the work, some of us appreciate it.

Darrick Hilton

[Mark]

I think that Acorn money is spent on the wrong tree.

[Parker]

I remember reading in the Nearings book about the first attempts with tubing,,,and sap tanks being emptied by the trees reabsortion (no air space in the tubing?? solid vacuum back to the taphole from the tree,,,,dont recall)
Dr. Perkins- I greatly appricate your taking the time and effort to post here,,,there are morons in every crowd,,I dont think they are the majority here,,,,,I think for the most part we greatly appricate your time
I certinaly do

-Vt(BLOWHARD)maplemaker,,,what was your per tap average last year or the years befor that? Mabey if you listend to the experts you would learn something and make some syrup!

[KenWP]

I have only tapped one season so far and had only a few trees on tubeing but I can see a advantage for these gizmos. I was mazed by just sucking on the tube how much extra sap flowed but of course not being from Texas I can't suck or blow all day on a plastic tube. I will watch around and see if I can find a few of these adapters to try.
I must be dumb but .35 cents dosn't sound like much for them even if one uses a lot if they work. But of course being a farmer all my life and paying $9600 bucks for a dud bull made sense also at the time.

[vtmaplemaker]

The funniest thing to this whole post is, the fact I never even wrote it... There where 4 members of this forum at my house last night, (I guess that will teach me to go to bed first) All questions that where asked seemed valid to me though. I guess I do find it hard to see how more sap then whats in the lat can get sucked back up by the tree..

As far as all the slamming on me, HAVE A BALL, but I think if you guys knew who posted it you mite change the way you thout about it, and mite actually listen to what the person, or persons have to say. I bet the bantering would not go on either..

I do have some reservations about these taps, and the way they where developed, I have never been to Proctor, but I do like getting slammed I guess, so have a ball. I will be more then happy to read along and laugh at what I get called....

[3rdgen.maple]

I purposely deleted this post myself as Mapleman3 is correct. Lets all make a ton of syrup this year, either your way or my way who cares it is all about the fun.

[3rdgen.maple]

Mapleman3 I hope you put some syrup on that icecream.

[Parker]

I apoligize for taking a negitive tone on my previous post,,,its just the kind of thing I dont like reading myself,,,so I should not be writeing it,,,If I were to guess who wrote the response under your handel Andy, I would guess it would be Kevin,,the other bandee,,,just what I would expect from him,,and the only fellow I know that was pulling splies at Proctor this spring,,,

[mapleman3]

I am looking into this further, As admin I need to get the facts....

BUT
Fact # 1 is we need to all respect one another... this is MY..no make that YOUR forum, and when I start getting complaints from MANY members, something has to be done...

Yes I have looked into a few things here and it does seem that the pot is stirred up from what appears to be a banned member. I will discuss this civil like with him ,

in the mean time, I would greatly appreciate not bashing each other, it's good to see someone here who has been involved in the research of a product, and thats exactly what it is ... research, thats how you get things done right.... so if you have such a huge problem with it, don't bring it here, find how you can help, go to the meetings, and seminars and check it out... just keep the slander and bashing out of this forum!

I will easily hit the delete button on posts OR members that do not follow the forum rules..

Thanks , now may I go finish my ice cream!

[Acer]

Tim,

Can you post the research data here on the scientific methods and yields for the cv spout and the control? I have seen some huge claims and remain skeptical. I wouldn't expect someone making extraordinary claims to shy away from providing extraordinary proof. The press releases have game changing over the top claims, I don't think its too much to ask to look under the hood. If your work is solid it shouldn't bother you to have it picked over by a bunch of sugarmakers.

Thanks.

Dean

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

My understanding is that we are to see such data in the next Maple Syrup Digest.
My kudo's to Dr. Perkins for his research and his thick skin. Having planned and done my share of research, I am often appalled by what passes for research whether it be in the scientific field or some form of poll. Healthy skepticism is fine and makes for better research and therefore better results and I am sure that Dr. Perkins will agree with me on that. Are these spouts all that they are cracked up to be by the media and some salesmen? Probably not and Dr. Perkins has acknowledged as much when he points out that they are a tool in our arsenal to improve production. Will they help any and all producers? Probably not. For some, there are undoubtedly other, cheaper, management things that will yield a better return (better slopes, less sags, limiting vacuum leaks, washing sap storage containers more often, gathering buckets more often, going to a higher vacuum level). We will all have to make our own choices based on what we know of the research and where we are in our own operations. If you think this product is all hype and sales pitch, then don't buy it. If you think it will give you 10 lbs per tap, I think you will be disappointed. If you think there needs to be more research, then wait a couple of years. If you wonder if they might work for you, set up your own comparison trial.

[Fred Henderson]

This maple industry is like any other its all about production and the ever loving dollar. How much money can I make with very little hired labor and very little work by the owner. No one seem to care about the tree because we can just grow another. Farmer don't care about their animals because they can also just grow/raise another.Where all the gadgets will end I do not know, but as long as someone say hey, you can get more money if you but and install this item it will never end.Progess should never stop but more research should go into the end product.

[DrTimPerkins]

Can you post the research data here on the scientific methods and yields for the cv spout and the control?


Dean and all,

For several reasons this is not the proper forum for extensive publication of methods, results, and discussion. I have provided a brief summary of results and tried to answer specific questions where I could on this forum (the first time I've posted here...due mainly to the large number of questions we were receiving). The Maple Digest paper that is coming out is over 13 pages of typed information. It should be out within a month or so.

Yes, the media reports are somewhat over the top, primarily in not giving the details under which the experiments were done. That's just the nature of the press and the medium, as well as the need to condense the story down to the shortest version possible. Similarly, marketing is designed to get you excited about stuff....and that's OK too....just recognize it for what it is...ask questions...and realize that they all do the same thing.

If anyone has specific questions, I'd suggest:
-- attending a seminar/presentation. I've already done several, and expect to do many more over the next several months -- including at the NYS Maple Tour in Lake Placid this coming Sunday. Ask questions at the end if you like....or stick around and chat with me afterward. I'm always happy to speak with maple producers.
-- wait for the Maple Digest paper to come out.
-- call, email (the best way to get me), or visit me if you wish. Again, I can't spend an hour with each person on the phone or in a meeting, but I will try to answer your most pressing questions.

We don't particularly like people walking around in our woods unescorted, pulling out spiles. We like to do a couple of years worth of work on projects before releasing results. Some of our projects are for products in development, and we won't discuss them until they are ready. We don't want photos of them posted out there. You can't often tell what it is we are studying just by looking at stuff in the woods. It is also possible that you could damage equipment or jeopardize an experiment and result in the loss of data for an entire season. We've been very open in the past, but are reviewing our policy on visitors. We would hate to have to close off access by posting the entire UVM PMRC property. Show a little respect and stop in at the lab and ask for a tour or where you can go to look at things.

And finally, thank you all for your support. It is absolutely fine to be skeptical and ask questions. Personal attacks and disrespect are not necessary.

Tim Perkins

[maplecrest]

i went back thru and read every post and have a thought to share. no spout or adapter is going to be perfect. i have had my share of problems from the start of the two piece system. too many to issues to list them all. but last season 150 out of 7500 adapters had pin holes in the side of them. and not found until first run vac up and running , with vac level issues. then to have to go back over 7500 to find them all was very frustrating. and some were not found until wash up.was a production problem. did the company care no! offer to replace 150 bad ones no! so no matter what brand you choose at that point you need to take some responsibility for that system you choose. for it is not going to be what is advertised. no two systems are the same. every one has it own set of problems.

[vtmaplemaker]

OK I have taken a attitude here on this whole thing, I have posted how all this came about, and I guess everyone wants a lynching.... Well you will not get it from me.. Kevin was NOT the one, just to clear the air on this.. Kevin or myself have never asked anyone to post anything here!! nor will we... The post was made by some other members that had some serious issues with some of the stuff they saw there, (again I have never been there). As far as me being banned before, I guess you guys can make up your own mind, why, and if I deserved it or not.. I would never call anyone a racist name on here (like others have), down the size or quality of a operation (heck I started on a turkey fryer), and or pass judgement as to what anyone has done... I was banned the first time around because of political talk, but I will throw out the challenge for anyone to quote what I said against anyone on a personal note!! I am sorry if some of you hate me for who I am, I guess I feel it is your loss for not listening and seeing what you can learn from me, as I know I can learn from all... MR Dr Perkins, if you would like to discuss this any further with me or anyone else for that matter, MSG me and I will give you my cell # and or email, and we can have a chat...

Andy
Valley View Sugarhouse
Bradford, VT

[Catskill Mt. Maple]

I haven't been on in a while sure looks like the new spouts have created quite a lot of chatter. Thats great! Here's a little more to think about. Back in May I talked about the anti-microbial spout using silver as the anti microbial. We have them and they will be avaliable in a couple of weeks. Bascom Lapierre and CDL will carry them. The spouts are designed for muti year use. It is pretty exciting technology. How it works and all the other applications: heart valves, food storage containers,water purifiers clothing the list I found was endless. The test showed a 99.99999% reduction of bacteria.

[DrTimPerkins]

Back in May I talked about the anti-microbial spout using silver as the anti microbial. .....

The spouts are designed for muti year use.

.....The test showed a 99.99999% reduction of bacteria.

Dear Catskill,

Not wanting to appear harsh, but I have several questions based upon the research I've done on antimicrobial silver as well as the results of research on antimicrobial silver in maple from decades ago.

Were these spouts ever been tested with maple sap, the microorganisms in maple sap, and the levels of microbial contamination in maple sap? (We've done several years of work with silver antimicrobial spouts/droplines).

Has there been any examination of the effects on sap yield? (We found modest increases if we used BOTH silver anti-microbial spouts and silver antimicrobial droplines, but very little positive effect with just spouts alone, and that was not much more than you'd get using a brand new spout adapter).

Was the test done for more than one season? (We found that tubing we used -- I believe made with the exact same nano-silver technology -- AgIon -- were not effective after one season. We found this for sap yield, and also when we checked the bacterial reduction efficacy in the lab).

Has anyone looked at how much silver ends up in sap or syrup? (We've found only minor increases in sap, but did not investigate the levels in syrup).

Has anyone looked at how they affect wounding in maple trees? (We've done only preliminary work with a small number of small trees. Although we found no negative effect, this should be confirmed in a larger study with normal sized trees).

Are potential buyers being informed that these should not be used in certified organic operations? (Silver nano-technology is not approved for organic maple production).

Tim Perkins, UVM PMRC

[Catskill Mt. Maple]

Dear Dr. Perkins,

We hired AgIon Technologies to do our testing of an antimicrobial maple spout. We wanted something that would not have to be thrown away and replaced each year. Their test in their labs showed that the spouts were protected from bacteria build up.As far as the strains of bacteria I have that info but not in front of me and will share that info with you. They then came up with their recommendation as to the type of silver compounds to be used in this application. We then contacted a company in Maine - Compounding Solutions to come up with the proper materials to make the spout. Mamco Corp of Oneonta NY was hired as the Injection molding company. We have not told any one that they are going to get 42 gallons of sap per tap. We have not made any claims about yields.
As a spin off AgIon has found from other applications with other plant materials that the anti microbial silver kept xylem tubes from clogging with bacteria. That will remain to be seen if that has any merit.
As far as additional tree damage I don't think so. Once the spout is removed there is no silver release.
AgIon has FDA and EPA approvials for food and water contact I would have to assume that there is no excessive silver build up from that.

Buy the way I didn't take your questions as being harsh Tom Kaufman

[Catskill Mt. Maple]

Dear Dr. Perkins,
To your other questions.
Bacteria used in testing was Pseudomonas aeruginosa, E Coli, Staph. aureas. We have not made any claims that these spouts are can be used in certified "organic syrup" production.
I do have a question for you on organic syrup. The end product ( syrup) produced certified organic vs nonorganic what are the differences? Anything else organic I have read about no difference, just a lifestyle choise by the consumer. Tom K

[DrTimPerkins]

Dear Dr. Perkins,
To your other questions.
Bacteria used in testing was Pseudomonas aeruginosa, E Coli, Staph. aureas. We have not made any claims that these spouts are can be used in certified "organic syrup" production.
I do have a question for you on organic syrup. The end product ( syrup) produced certified organic vs nonorganic what are the differences? Anything else organic I have read about no difference, just a lifestyle choise by the consumer. Tom K

Tom....thanks for the replies.

Each organic certifying agency has their own rules (although they are typically similar), however there is a list of approved materials at the Federal level (U.S.) and likely the same in Canada. If it isn't on the list, you can't use it regardless of the certifying agency. Although you aren't required to inform people that nano-silver can't be used in organic production, I think you could end up with some rather irate people if after they'd paid to be certified they discover that their syrup is not eligible for the organic premium ($0.20-0.25/lb) they were expecting to get. Better they know upfront and can calculate the cost/benefit.

We can say as much as we want about there being no difference (in most cases), however many consumers will pay the premium for CERTIFIED organic maple syrup. Probably one of the biggest differences is defoamers. Organic operations must use certified organic defoamers.

Pseudomonas is probably the most common bacteria found in sap.

Were your tests done with sap, and with the levels of microorganisms found in sap....particularly at the end of the season?

The reason I ask is that other processes for sterilizing sap, such as ozone, which work very well with drinking water, do not work very well with sap. The sugar in the sap appears to have a protective influence on microorganisms. If the tests were done with water, they may not represent what will happen well with sap. Secondly, due to the sugar again, the level of microorganisms in sap is typically FAR higher than what is found in most drinking water. So testing with water is not at all representative.

Do you have any literature on the testing?

TP

[Catskill Mt. Maple]

Dear Dr. Perkins,

Thanks for the heads up on the Organic certification requirements as per nano silver. I do have test results from AgIon. We also plan on doing some fall tapping studies for additional data. Thanks Tom

[DrTimPerkins]

We also plan on doing some fall tapping studies for additional data.

Hi Tom,

Please be aware that FALL tapping studies may well yield very different results from SPRING tapping. As is true for Check-valve spouts, I presume the main method of action for these Ag-spouts is an expected reduction of microbial populations in the taphole and thus an extension the sap flow season. However, typically the FALL sap flow season ends due to lack of above-freezing temperatures, not due to high temperatures causing microbe-induced taphole drying (like we see in the SPRING). So you may not see the results you wish with a study in the FALL. I'd be quite surprised if you observe any difference.

I neglected to mention that Pseudomonas spp. are fairly common in sap, and so it makes sense to test with that organism. However, I wouldn't expect E. coli to be found unless the sap were contaminated by fecal matter (manure or sewage), which is quite unlikely, especially in maple tubing operations. Further, although Staphylococcus spp. can be found in sap, Staph aureus is primarily a concern for human health (hospital infections). So neither E. coli or Staph are good choices for maple operations. The maple research literature can suggest a far better suite of microorganisms to test for this purpose, or give me a call and I'll help.

I am still left wondering:

1. Were these spouts ever tested with actual maple sap (rather than water)?
2. Were the nano-silver spouts ever put into trees?
3. Has there been any examination of how they affect yield?
4. Have the studies looked at spouts/tubing in the 2nd or subsequent years of use (we found very different results in the 2nd year of use)?
5. Is there any literature available describing the studies done?

Happy to chat with you about this sometime. As I said before, I expect to have a paper out in the January edition of Maple Digest (and then on our website) describing out work with silver spouts/tubing.

Thanks,

Tim Perkins
UVM PMRC

[Bucket Head]

I just wanted to comment here. I was not following this thread since we have very little tubing, and its not on vacuum. A fellow Trader/producer told me to take a look at this.

I attended the N.Y. Maple Tour, and attended the presentation that Dr. Perkins gave. It was very informative. There were a lot of facts and figures, many photos, and some very compelling video of sap movement.

Its safe to say that after the presentation, there were over one hundred "believers" in that room, myself included.

I can not understand why there is so much "discussion" about these spouts, or why there is so much negetivety back and forth.

Everyone knows that bacteria causes sap flow to slow down and stop. These spouts will help to keep bacteria out of the hole.

Its that simple. Will they work for you? I can't tell you. Try them and see. If we had a system like what they are intended, I would use them.

I'm a pretty "low tech" kind of guy, but I, and everyone here should recognize that technology is required for advancement.

Thanks for the information Dr Perkins.

Steve

[3rdgen.maple]

Dr. Tim Perkins sorry to get a little off topic here but I was wondering about regular taps us bucket guys use and if you have any insight on them. In another thread a question was brought up about aluminum taps. So I was wondering have you done any testing on say rolled steel, aluminum, and the plastic spouts and was there any negative or positive results from one to the other? Do you recomend a specific way to sanitize them before using them again?

[Fred Henderson]

I was also at Dr Perkin's lecture and found it very informative. Thru out the whole tour I got the feeling that us bucket and spouts guys are considered left wingers. I will continue to use metal buckets and metal spout, I will make less but I will make better quality. As I see the syrup industry it is n longer about quality, its about money and how much one can make.

[Bucket Head]

Fred,

I don't know if left wingers is the correct title for us. I have been called a wingnut a few times.

Most of us bucket guys are classified as "smaller producers". We don't go to the tubing because we either can't justify the increased investment for tubing and vacuum, or our "bush" is not suited for a vacuum system.

I would like to do the vacuum thing, but I tap roadside and hedge row trees.

Yes, making more money at this is part of everyones goal. Nobody wants to lose money. However, I don't look at the tubing system as a profit increaser as the first benefit. I look at it as a way to get sap on days when it is'nt flowing by itself, its easier to collect the sap, and it helps keep bacteria out of the tree.

But for now, its still buckets for me.

Bucket Head
a.k.a.- Steve

[Fred Henderson]

My bush and the two others that I tap are more than ideal for tubing. All three are hillside right down to my SH. However that bush at the top of the hill the owner does not want tubing in his woods years around. So its no tubeing for me. I do have about 55 taps on gravity in 3 different places.

[sapman]

As Steve knows, I've been a bucket guy forever. But I got permission to tap a bush last year, so I went for it, vacuum and all. I wondered how my syrup would taste compared to prior years. This year's crop was probably 65-75% vacuum tubing, the rest buckets. I can't honestly taste any difference from before.

Just my experience,
Tim

[DrTimPerkins]

I was also at Dr Perkin's lecture and found it very informative. Thru out the whole tour I got the feeling that us bucket and spouts guys are considered left wingers.

Hi Fred,
Glad you found the talk informative, but sorry to hear you feel left out. We at UVM PMRC do focus most of our work on vacuum tubing operations. The main reason for that is that a great deal of excellent research was conducted for well over a hundred years on bucket production. Most of that huge body of work is still applicable (and still largely available). There is far less work done on tubing, less on vacuum tubing, and even less on high vacuum production and the new tubing technologies. So that is where we concentrate our attention. If new technologies for bucket production appear, we do look into these (like small spouts). So please don't feel that we consider the bucket or gravity tubing producers any less important -- we don't.

As an example of progress. Average bucket/gravity tubing production is about 0.2-0.25 gal syrup/tap. Average vacuum production is perhaps 0.25-0.35 gal/tap. For years on our vacuum system at PMRC, we were stuck at around 0.30-0.40 gal/tap. Since we adopted the new tubing technology and high vacuum, we've achieved over 0.5 gal/tap for each of the past 6 years. Admittedly it was a great season last year, and overall we were at 0.68 gal/tap across all our systems. Using the CV spout we got considerably more. My feeling is that with the new things that are out there, and others that are in the works, I think we'll regularly see production in the range of 0.75-1.0 gal per/tap within the next 5-10 years.

As I've said many many times, the CV-spout, as well as other technologies, are tools. Each producer must choose for themselves whether these fit their production schemes and could help them meet their production objectives.

Tim P.

[Fred Henderson]

With future productions at or around 0.75- 1.0 gals per tap sounds great. However has anyone given any consideration what effect this will have on the tree?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

And on our price and profits!

[Fred Henderson]

If the syrup industry continues to go the way the dairy farms did and we get a glut of syrup as we did with milk we will then be up the proverbial creek. I hope that by then I will to old to do it any longer.

[DrTimPerkins]

However has anyone given any consideration what effect this will have on the tree?

Good question. Yes, our "back of the envelope" calculations indicate that the amount of sugar being extracted, even at these high rates, will not be a problem. Producers used to hang 2-4+ buckets per tree, and were getting about the same amount of sugar, but with a lot more holes. We're simply achieving higher sugar extraction with far fewer wounds, and it appears to be the wounds made by tapping that are the limiting factor in terms of health and survival of trees.

Maples are quite resilient, and can withstand a tremendous amount of branch loss during the winter due to snow/ice and wind. The amount of sugar we are taking from trees is FAR less than that required to grow even a fairly small branch.

Nevertheless, we are very interested in experimentally establishing the effect. To that end, we wrote and submitted a grant proposal that we hoped would allow us to do that. Unfortunately it was unfunded in the last round...because it was not ranked to have enough "societal value". Obviously those people ranking the grants did not listen to the same people we do, as this is a question I am asked EVERY time I present this work. However, we can't do the work without the funding, so we have to wait until we can identify and acquire some source of funding. Usually there is only one "call for proposals" each year, so even if we do get the funds next round, it will likely be 1-2 years before we can actually begin the work, and 2-3 years after that before we have results.

Tim P.

[DrTimPerkins]

And on our price and profits!

The ramp up to high yield and high production will take years to decades to happen. Some producers will never adopt the new technologies -- that's just fine too. Look at how many people still aren't using vacuum, though that's been around for decades. There's plenty of room for producers of all sizes and level of technology integration. It is an equation that everyone has to calculate on their own based upon their own circumstances.

Even with the huge crop this year, sales are very strong and there is unlikely to be much of any surplus by next production season. The market for maple syrup is very good. One of the biggest threats to price and profits is poor production. If marketers can't fill the need of their purchasers, prices will spike up, but the demand will drop off, and prices will plummet.

Tim P.

[DrTimPerkins]

...have you done any testing on say rolled steel, aluminum, and the plastic spouts and was there any negative or positive results from one to the other? Do you recomend a specific way to sanitize them before using them again?

We've done some work on these subjects, but not a great deal. There is some good historical research on these subjects too. In general metal spouts are easier to sanitize than plastic spouts (which are somewhat porous). Cleaning will help plastic spouts (or tubing), but never bring bring them back to like-new condition. The microbial biofilms are just too resistant to most normal cleaning regimes. That is the why the maple industry has moved towards annual replacement of spout adapters -- you get a clean spout by replacement.

Metal spouts, and especially bucket spouts are different. Cleaning is probably a bit easier to achieve. However since you have an open taphole with buckets, there is no way to really keep it totally clean anyhow (taphole is open to airborne microorganisms), so although cleaning is definitely a good idea and will help somewhat, it has less of an impact in the long run. But starting with dirty spouts will definitely impact production.

Tim P.

[Fred Henderson]

As I see it the tube manufactures will never make non pourous tubing or spouts.

[DrTimPerkins]

As I see it the tube manufactures will never make non pourous tubing or spouts.

If they could, they would. The only non-porous (more aptly described as considerably less porous) alternatives are metal or glass. Neither are really suitable (although metal -- tin -- tubing was tried a long time ago).

The newer types of tubing based upon polyethylene formulations are far superior to the former polyvinyl formulations in many important respects.

Tim P.

[Fred Henderson]

What is needed is for you to get a very large research grant, say about a million dollars to come up with a silver lined spout and tubing. That would be the icing on the cake.

[3rdgen.maple]

Thanks for the response. Still curious if you have any recomendations on how to sanitize our steel spouts. I have heard so many different products to use.

[Bucket Head]

Dr. Perkins,

I too am interested in what the best method for cleaning would be for the stainless tubing spouts. I don't have much tubing so I was planning on having these for years, and just replace the drops every so often.

Thanks,
Steve

[sapman]

Dr. Tim,

I also very much appreciate your valuable information on this site!

I've got a perhaps wierd question on the use of the check valve spouts. Most of my taps are going to end up being red maples. Would you consider it wise to use the checks on these trees, or might it increase the likelihood of producing "buddy" sap, due to longer, stronger, late season running? I'm not convinced about the high risk some say there is in tapping red maple, especially after your colleague Dr. Wilmot's article last year in Farming.

Thanks,
Tim

[3rdgen.maple]

Tim (sapman) article did I miss something? Where could I find that one.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Tim,
Would you consider it wise to use the checks on these trees, or might it increase the likelihood of producing "buddy" sap, due to longer, stronger, late season running?

It would greatly depend upon the season. We used to not tap any red maples, but now we do, and haven't observed any effects on syrup flavor late in the season.

3rdGen -- UVM PMRC and UVM Maple Extension articles are available by going to http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/ The particular article on tapping red maple is a Tim Wilmot Farming Magazine article, so click that link and it's on the next page.

Tim P.

[3rdgen.maple]

Thanks for the link to the article.

[maplwrks]

I cancelled my order for these adapters today....I use Lapierre straight stubbies in my woods. When I tried putting the stubby into the adapter, and pushed it in enough to seal, the inside diameter of the stubby restricted the ball movement. Actually, it stopped the ball from moving at all!! I am not changing the stubbies to accomodate them this year---I'll let some of you other guys do more testing on them!

[Fred Henderson]

I cancelled my order for these adapters today....I use Lapierre straight stubbies in my woods. When I tried putting the stubby into the adapter, and pushed it in enough to seal, the inside diameter of the stubby restricted the ball movement. Actually, it stopped the ball from moving at all!! I am not changing the stubbies to accommodate them this year---I'll let some of you other guys do more testing on them!

I would be curious as to how many years of research went into them.

[Russell Lampron]

Mike I'm glad that you tried that. I bought some Lapierre straight spouts to install this year. I'll have to use those in a section of woods where I am planning to use the Lapierre adapters.

Fred there is a very good article about the new adapters in the October 2009 Maple Syrup Digest. Three years of research went into the design and testing. the first prototypes were check valve spouts. They decided to put the check valve into an adapter for cleaning purposes. If the check valve was in a spout it would be hard to clean for reuse. The adapter is meant to be used for one season and replaced.

[DrTimPerkins]

When I tried putting the stubby into the adapter, and pushed it in enough to seal, the inside diameter of the stubby restricted the ball movement.

Where/when did you get the CV adapter you tested with the Lapierre stubby (what color is it)? This was a known issue with the prototypes tested in the woods last season. The commercial version that just went into production was changed to prevent this from happening.

Tim Perkins

[maplwrks]

I got it from Leader 2 days ago....

[Fred Henderson]

True as it may sound but we are a throw away society.

[Snow Hill Farm]

From what I have been reading there is an effort being made to find a way to recycle old tubing, spouts, adapters, etc. Lets hope this happens because I have been saving all my old stuff in a pile rather than put it in the landfill......

[Mark]

Does anyone know what changes were made on the final version? By trying to make it fit different brands it ended up not fitting the Leader stub spout very well. I am hoping that it was changed to fit like their straight adapter.
I have 15,000 of the check valves ordered but have not decided what brand stub spouts and tees that I will use and have to start making droplines soon.
They should make it fit only Leader spouts so they can sell more of them.
I hear they don't make much on the check valve.

[DrTimPerkins]

I got it from Leader 2 days ago....

You got a single Check-Valve Adapter from Leader? What color is it (white)?

The commercially available version (not last years version made for testing) that are being produced now were changed from last years prototype to fit the Leader stubby, the D&G stubby, and the Lapierre stubby and straight-through. The ball works fine with all of these.

TP

[Randy Brutkoski]

i got 1 as well. it is black. it fits the leader stubby fine, but i have not tried it on the 7/16 spout yet. I have been told by many that it will not fit right on the other spouts/stubby.

[DrTimPerkins]

i got 1 as well. it is black. it fits the leader stubby fine, but i have not tried it on the 7/16 spout yet. I have been told by many that it will not fit right on the other spouts/stubby.

If you got just one (whether white or black), it is probably last years version made for testing. The new commercial version will fit and work with all stubbies except CDL (still working on that one).

TP

[Mark]

The Leader straight adapter without the check valve fits the Leader stubby really nice. But the white sample check valve did not fit the same. A small side load on the tubing would loosen it up. I was hoping that they would change the angle to match the stubby. My fear is that I have 15,000 of these in the woods and they start coming loose that is why I am waiting to buy the stubbies. The Lapiere seemed to fit the white sample better.
I hope to get one of the production ones in my hand at the northern Maine tour.

[DrTimPerkins]

The Leader straight adapter without the check valve fits the Leader stubby really nice. But the white sample check valve did not fit the same.

The adapter geometry was changed slightly to fit all the stubbies (except CDL) better. It was impossible to make it fit ALL the stubbies. A version for CDL stubs is in the works...will likely be anothe color to distinguish it from the others.

TP

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I was at Leader yesterday and was told that the adapters should start going out to dealers by next week. They did not even have any of the new ones at the Warehouse. No dealers will get all of their orders at once, rather they will be parceled out over all dealerships. If you do not yet have them ordered and want to try some, it was suggested that your order should be put in now.
Doug

[DrTimPerkins]

I showed these two videos at the North American Maple Syrup Council Annual meeting last week and thought you folks might like to see them.

The first shows sap backflow resulting from a sudden leak in a lateral line for a NON check-valve spout. The liquid is dyed blue so it can be seen better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1wQPrgzroA

When we did the same thing with a Check-valve spout, the ball snapped back immediately and there was no sap movement back into the taphole.

The second video shows what happens in a mechanical releaser when it dumps and introduces air. This is a single-pipe system. Same thing happens in a double-pipe system, but you can't see it because the air runs up the dry line and doesn't affect the wet line for several minutes, by which point it is much less apparent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__9xGeunEK8

Tim Perkins
UVM PMRC