Volume of sap: Tube vs Bucket

[Jim Schumacher]

Generally, Do most of you find that you get less sap per tap on tubing without a vacuum then you would with individual buckets, bags or other containers? Or is it about the same?

[Amber Gold]

I think the consensus is you'll get slightly less sap per tap with gravity tubing, but you save a lot of time collecting during the season. You also have the added benefit of just hooking a vacuum pump and releaser up to the tubing in the future and getting much better performance than buckets. You could add more taps to make up the difference in lost sap.

[KenWP]

I put 8 trees on tubeing last spring and the amount of sap I got for most of the season didn't pay for the line and spiles. When the sap really poured I got semi decent runs but most days i was lucky to get a gallon from 8 trees in total. I will tap them separately from now one as some of them were huge trees.

[red maples]

last year I had about 10 taps on one line and all the other were single draining into 5 gallon water bottles 24 taps in all. I got about the same yield per tap didn't matter and made about 3 gallons of syrup and I know I tapped 3 jack maples(didn't yield jack for sap..saw that in another thread).

so thats 1 pt per tap. and the sugar content was very low and not a great year for gravity lines in general. Better then average if you had a vacuum. so if I have 200 taps next season that should give me around 20 -30 gallons of syrup(probably closer to the 20 gallon side. depending on the season and what it brings... not a big church guy...but praying for high sugar big SAP!!!

[Jim Schumacher]

Wow, last year I made over twenty gallons of syrup on only eighty taps. Thats with sugar maples... and I think the upper midwest had a pretty good year too. I have pretty flat land and a tubing system would be tough. I would imagine a tubing system would have a lot of freezing problems. Don't get me wrong, I envy those who are able to have them.

Dshultz... You out there? What do you find between your two systems?

[mtnmeadowmplfarm]

Jim,

There should not be any difference in sap yield between gravity tubing and buckets (in the same woods under identical circumstances). If the tubing is yielding less sap perhaps your drop lines are too short. When trees freeze at night they create a negative pressure that will draw sap from your tubing back into the tree. This will channel more bacteria into the taphole. Be sure to make your droplines three feet long to help avoid this.

[Randy Brutkoski]

1 gallon of sap on 8 trees. Maybe your trees need a shot of your viagra....

[brookledge]

A lot will depend on how well your buckets are collected and how well your tubing is maintained. When collecting buckets there is more sap lost than there is with tubing unless your tubing leaks or is chewed by rodents. But on a whole I'd say you will lose more sap from collecting buckets from spilling and slipping than you will on tubing.
That being said the sugar content usually is higher with buckets than tubing.
For me before I had vacuum I had to use tubing because I'm a one man band show and do it all myself. So I had no time to go collecting.
Keith

[3rdgen.maple]

I gotta think it would take longer for your gravity setup to thaw out than it would a tap in a tree. Spilling sap out of your buckets? Who would ever do such a thing:D I think the minimal amount I spill out of a bucket in a season would amount to about a few ounces of syrup. On the other hand you have to keep up on them so they do not overflow. I wish I knew how much sap I have lost over the years cause of that.

[brookledge]

As with anything doing it yourself it most likely will always be better. I have watched kids(teenagers) go out and collect for another sugarhouse near by and they don't care as much if they spill sap as they go. I guess they feel there is no way of knowing.

Keith

[dschultz]

Wow, last year I made over twenty gallons of syrup on only eighty taps. Thats with sugar maples... and I think the upper midwest had a pretty good year too. I have pretty flat land and a tubing system would be tough. I would imagine a tubing system would have a lot of freezing problems. Don't get me wrong, I envy those who are able to have them.

Dshultz... You out there? What do you find between your two systems?

Jim...Last year was a bad year for gravity tubing in my opinion,there was to much sap for the lines to handle before it got to the main line.But on a normal year they do better.So this last year my pails did better than tubing.

[Jim Schumacher]

Alright guys. Now you have me thinking about running gravity lines. Is there any problem with tapping the farthest trees about eight feet up?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Somewhere (maybe on here?) I saw some research regarding tap height. seems to me there was slightly less production from higher taps but it really wasn't a big difference. You can tap at eight feet, and many of us do so that we can get slope on our lines. The inconvenience of tapping at that height and pulling the spout later is the only consideration.

[vermaple]

The worst time for gravity tubing is on the days with weepy type runs, the pressure differential is not enough for what little sap there is to flow though the tubing where the sap is in the bucket. (the vacuum advantage) Also as mentioned the vacuum from the tree when it cools off.

[PerryW]

Alright guys. Now you have me thinking about running gravity lines. Is there any problem with tapping the farthest trees about eight feet up?

Nope. I used to use a ladder to tap a few trees at 8-10 feet above grade.

I think buckets & gravity tubing run about the same.

Occasionally, I have buckets running over, or a bucket falls off the tree in a wind storm; but it seems like I also lose sap from tubing problems too (squirrels and dead limbs & trees falling on the lines)

[Sugarmaker]

Another 2 cents!
I used buckets for 40 years and have just switched to gravity "short" run tubing system for all our rented road side maples. We may get just a little less sap but the quality is better, we waste less spillage, and we have 30 collection points vs 500! I can go gather by myself and still come home and boil. Or I can send the grand kids or wife to to collect and know that they are not going to struggle with heavy sap buckets. As far as less sap? I just found a few more nice trees and make a couple extra stops.
Ken I would suggest that you tap those trees on buckets and find out if they run good. If they don't I would not tap them again. Reminds me of the time I hung 300 buckets on roadside soft maples and neighbor hung 100 buckets on hard maple and the hard maples produced as much or more than the softs. You need to know what each tree can produce over several years and not tap the low producers.

Regards,
Chris

[3rdgen.maple]

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/ A picture speaks a thousand words. I got interested in the proctor resaerch center from another post and went to their website. In one of the pictures you will see them tapping a relatively young tree above his head. Im guessing it is about an 8 inch tree.

[PerryW]

How many words is a video worth?


http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/perryW/?action=view&current=MapleSapDripBucket.flv

http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/perryW/?action=view&current=MapleSapLinesRunning.flv

[3rdgen.maple]

1001 words i think

[red maples]

well most of the reason I did so bad on those trees with tubing even though it was a bad year for gravity....this is where the inexperience kicks in!!!!:( I left the end of the line open..I didn't know I was suppose to close it off and when I did it was TOO late. So when I got good sap early and it slowed pretty quick I just thought that was how it was suppose to go
So this year I know better!!!!:D
Live and learn!!!!

anyway the pitch on my property to the collection tanks is really good...it's a little flat in the beginiing but then goes up hill a little then even more at the end so it should work out good and won't have to tap too high.

[Jim Schumacher]

Red Maples, Please be more specific... What end did you leave open? What should i be closing off?

[TapME]

Jim, he is talking about the end, the far end where the tubing starts should be closed off so that no air gets in. Yes the sap will flow faster but the healing of the tap hole will begin much faster.
I will give you and example, For 4 seasons I used buckets in this one area in my orchard and those 30 buckets would on a good day give me 15 gallons of sap. Last year I put in tubing on those 30 trees and on good days I would get a 55 gallon barrel full and the bad days was 15 gallons. This is on one part of my trees that never really produced, now it is better. For those that want to know it was 30 taps all on 5/16 tubing. The season was better here but still an average season.

[red maples]

TapME is right it is the farthest end that I left open. but this year I know better... you also get natual vacuum from flowing sap which didn't even think of either!!! and the trees them selves have what like 2 or 3 psi or something.

speaking of tubing what is a good mainline slope with out vacuum(on Gravity)in the NAMSPM it says 4 to 5 percent...percent of what??? inches per foot, inches per 10 feet, 1 foot per 100 feet, and it said you could have as little as 1/2 percent??? as long as the mainline is large enogh and it was very straight again percent of what??? anyway from those who use gravity line was is ideal to get the best sap yeild???

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

percent refers to the degree of fall. a 1% slope would have 1 foot of fall for 100 feet of distance. A 4% slope would be 4 feet of fall for 100 feet of distance. Try to maintain a relatively even slope...avoid steep pitches followed by almost level areas.

[red maples]

ah very good thats what I thought but I wasn't sure!!! thank you for the clarification..yes they did mention that to avoid steep slopes going into a flatter area because the sap will get "bunched up " for lack of a better phrase, and loose speed and that natural vacuum.

over all that book is very good I recomend it to anyone just starting out it has a ton of great info in there and it is a nice reference too. but when you get stuck always turn to the Trader!!!!!

[Jim Schumacher]

I am thinking more seriously about a tubing system. I am buying two acres of land right next to my cabin. It is thick with beautiful maples, but on only a slight slope. Does anyone ever bury their collection tank in the ground to gain a few feet? Any potential problem with burying a Poly tank?

[KenWP]

Hard to drain it when its under ground. Maybe you could push out a depression instead so you can work with the bottom drain also.

[brookledge]

Also it would be hard to wash it out. but if it is the only way to do it thengo for it you can always vac it out with a shop vac when cleaning it
Keith

[Jim Schumacher]

My only thought, other then dropping it's elevation, was that the sap would be out of the sun in the cool ground. I pretty much already dropped the idea though. I'll find a shorter tank. Thanks

[PerryW]

I would just use a ladder and tap the furthest trees a couple feet higher up instead of putting the tank below grade.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Partially bury the tank, if the tank is 4' high, put 3' of it in the ground and leave it loose around it if you want to be able to pull it out and clean it and for easy removal at the end of the year. This will give you some extra elevation and still keep the top of the tank above the ground for easy access.

[DrTimPerkins]

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/ A picture speaks a thousand words. I got interested in the proctor resaerch center from another post and went to their website. In one of the pictures you will see them tapping a relatively young tree above his head. Im guessing it is about an 8 inch tree.

Yes, it is true that we sometimes tap smaller trees. However....when we do this, it is typically because we will later CUT THOSE TREES DOWN in order to look at the wounding caused by tapping. If we used large trees for all studies of this type, we wouldn't have any trees left to tap after several years. Therefore we are forced to tap some smaller trees for research purposes (much like they use laboratory rats instead of people to test new things). The small trees are our equivalent of lab rats.

In our regular operation we tap trees from 10" up, although the majority of our trees are over 12".

Tim Perkins