Case IH 385 radiator cap issues

[Pete S]

I JUST bought a 1989 Case IH 385 MFWD w/ a loader. I've been looking it over to fix little leaks and such. When I test drove it I didn't work it too hard,......I mean why should I, as it only has 1900 +/- hours on it.

SO,........I started to actually use it, and prior to that I topped off the radiator, and checked other fluids, and grease. When it got warmed up, antifreeze started coming out of the over flow tube, when she was working.

Warmed up and idle, it's fine,.............but reved up, or under load like in road gear, the antifreeze comes out out, even under the cap.

When I initially topped it off, I noticed that there was a chunk of inner tube glued to the cap casket. Not liking things "rigged" I took it off.

LONG STORY SHORT, I found a NEW CAP at a local dealer. Came home and topped off the antifreeze to where the owner's manual advises it should be.

Took her out for a test spin,................boils out!

NOTE IT'S NOT HOT,..........it's running right in the middle of the gauge (temp, I don't have) but I can grab the hose and it's just warm.

The engine purrs like a kitten,...........not intifreeze in the oil, etc.

It will run and normal temp on gauge with the low level in the radiator,.............but things that "shouldn't happen" BUG ME TO death!

Any ideas, or thoughts?

Thanks!
Pete

[KenWP]

Are you checking the return hoses and the thermostat. Also where is the temp gauge sensor. I have run into this problem and it was the thermostat that caused it. I have seen to back side of the motor empty of water because the you had to actually fill it when you drained the block to change the thermostat.

[maplecrest]

had an older 560 farmall that started doing that. and after a couple of years still running it like that, i took an antifreeze bath from the smoke stack. glad tractor was not warmed up.was head gasket. had a small crack in it that turned major. cracked a sleeve. engine over haul. and i sold tractor.look at the side of the engine and see if you see any air bubbles near the head gasket. try running with out thermostat and look in radiator and see if you see bubbles beyond the norm that would be a leaking head gasket. see if you can put cap on and see if you can run tractor then. if ok bad thermostat

[Farmboy]

Try asking the question at www.mytractorforum.com under IH/farmall forum. Im maplekid over there.

[ctjim]

i would look into the possibility of a bad thermostat, could also be some junk clogging the radiator inner workings? does that machine have a place to bleed the air out of the cooling system? you could try bleeding it and see what happens. i'm not sure i would push it too hard until you find out the cause of the trouble, as it may lead to a bigger repair job than you have to do now. good luck, jim

[lpakiz]

It's not uncommon to have those symptems when you have a crack in the head. In this case, the crack would be in the compression area of the head, as opposed to a crack in the intake or exhaust valve bowls/area. Pressure from compression would be forcing gases out thru the crack and into the water. Hope not, but most machine shops can pressure test or magnaflux heads to find this problem. Most times it is not too expensive to repair the head--just the time and expense it takes to remove and replace, plus gaskets. Good luck.....

[vermaple]

Had similar symptoms in my tractor which turned out to be a clogged radiator. Ended up recoring the radiator, problemed solved.

[Flat47]

What is your temp gauge reading when the coolant is released?
Do you have an overflow tank for excess coolant to run into?

Coolant expands as it's warmed. So a completely full radiator when cold will turn into an over-full radiator when warmed (160-170 for my Allis-Chalmers). Many tractors (and older autos) just have a tube running from under the radiator cap down the side of the radiator and nothing else there to contain the excess coolant. You say the tractor is not hot, so I don't think the coolant is being boiled off. Even with a brand new cap and thermostat, the coolant will expand and some coolant will be allowed to escape through the overflow tube.

So...I'd check the simple stuff first.

[3rdgen.maple]

We had three case tractors back on the farm and not one off the radiator caps fit right. Even when we replaced them with new ones they were to loose and eventually they would fall off. We lined them with rubber to get them tighter as well and it solved the problem. That may be the reason for the extra peice of rubber inside the cap but not the reason for the overflow. Like already said I would not work the tractor until you get it solved. A phone call to the guy you got it from could provide you with a little history on it as well. If I remember right there is a plug on the engine block to loosen and let air out of the cooling system. It could just be it is air locked. You can also go to the website antiquetractors.com and purchase engine and chasis parts and service manuals for them as well.

[Pete S]

I bought this froma out of state dealer,............over the net. Yes I know it's chancy, but I've been looking for several years, and timing and money availability never coinsided,...........then it did. There is NOTHING like this at the price I paid here in WI.

But,..........at this point maybe not too much a deal.............

Thank you so much for the words of advice.

Here's where I'm at today. I looked in the radiator this AM, and it was below the core openings. It looked to be just below the core openings so I fired it up and ran it to warm it up.

I DID NOT get antifreeze out of the over flow tube, like I do when the radiator is properly filled.

There was no pressure coming out of the overflow tube. I would suspect IF there was a source of pressure from within the copression of the cylinders, this would then be just blowing out "air" and not antifreeze,......................right? The lower hose was "hard".

I did losen the cap, and got a tremendous surge of antifreeze that was forced out!

I'm just "hoping" that if it IS the leak "into" the cooling system,........it's simply a head gasket leak.

I pulled the thermostat this AM, and have the hood off in anticipation of some level of major repair,..............but am looking to replace the thermostat and give'er a whirl anyway.

The worst that can happen is the same #&%!!*&?! thing.

NOTE: the edge of the head gasket on the exhaust side is "wet" a bit.

Thanks again,..........and keep idea/comments coming!

The tractor from what I know originated from SE Ohio, so I'm hoping that the "freeze" thing didn't happen.

This is ALL VERY frustrating as the thing runs great,...........and quite a treat to run coming from a 1951 WD!

Pete

[3rdgen.maple]

Pete I would not think it has been frozen. I have seen case tractors that had froze and the outide castings on the engine blocks will crack as it is the most vunerable spot on them. I had a case before I bought the John Deere and someone borrowed it and a branch knocked of a radiator hose. The guy neglected to tell me this happened and within a week we got freezing temps and since he just added water it cracked the block. Within hours I had a welder in and fixed it. Crack was about 15 inches long and I ran that tractor for another ten years like that with no ill results.
Since you got the thermostat out why not just slap it back together without it and see if the problem goes away. If it does you got your answer. If you really think it is a gasket you cold run some bars leak in it also. I would not recomend it as a permanent fix but if the problem goes away doing that you got your answer there as well and can plan accordingly. I don't think you are gonna be out alot of money to get this resolved so you probably still have a good deal. One other thing is the radiator caps are made to vent as well and if pressure is building up in the system and cap is not letting it vent you would get the same results I believe. I think some caps actually seal off the overflow hose outlet and when pressure builds it opens up the overflow to vent. It could be that it is sticking and allowing too much pressure to build up in the system and when it gets to the point where it does open up it is too late.

[Pete S]

I need to get a gasket, because I'm too lazy to make one and while its apart I'm going to get a new thermostat anyway,..............and it's Sunday and no parts are available..................but good idea!

I'll get it together tomorrow,............parts dependant,..............and give'er a whirl.

I have the hood off in anticipation of "surgery",..............and besides I can paint it now!

Thanks for all the advice and kind words,................as I am in love with this thing.

I dream about the 74" blower I'm looking to buy,..........and having power steering,............and a bucket wider than the wheels,.............OMG 4x4! Oh and don't forget the sound and smells of a diesel!

I'll post the resuts of the next test run.

Again thanks!
Pete

[thenewguy]

sounds like a typical cracked cylinder head to me, seen them lots. Been a diesel truck mechanic for 10 years. Personally I would start with a system pressure test and leave pressure on for a few hours. If you drop pressure I'd be jerking the head and sending it to a machine shop and get it fluxed. if you do take the head off, spray down with "brake kleen", if you see and cracks or possible cracks. Spray again, take 2 ball peen hammers and hit the head opposite the cracked at the same time.. if you see a bubble, in the brake kleen, chances are you found the crack..

[Pete S]

Cracked head surviability?

[3rdgen.maple]

Would'nt he be getting oil residue in the coolant system or coolant in the oil system if the head was cracked? I not a diesel machanic but it seems like there would be a sign of the mixture some where. If that is the problem Pete yes they can be fixed but if it is really bad a used cylinder head might be easier. There are alot of tractor salvage yards if you do a search on the net you might be amazed at what is out there for parts.

[Pete S]

The Jury is back in!

Pulled thermostat,...........put back together,............filled system,.............with water,.............left cap off, and fired her up,.............bubble, bubble, bubble!

I've called and made a loose apt. to pick it up and fix.

Transport, parts, machine work, and labor,............about $700.00.

Oh well there next year for the sugar shack!

[3rdgen.maple]

Pete 700 sounds like a fair price to me. Just think about how well she's gonna run when ya get her back.

[3rdgen.maple]

Was just thinking Here Pete but I sent a tractor with a cracked head to our Local BOCES or what some call a vocational school a long time ago. I had a neighbor kid ask if he could bring it in as a project for school. Him and the instructor had it up and running in no time and all it cost me was parts and a little gift of maple in return. I don't know if there are any around you but it may not hurt to give it a try. Heck a student learns something and you get an easy on the wallet bill.

[lpakiz]

3rd generation maple and others,
You may get oil in water, water in oil, bubbles in water etc. Depends on where the crack is and what is on each side of the crack. If the crack is from the combustion side to the water jacket (most common) you will get bubbles in the water and possibly water blown out of the radiator. Severe cracks can wreck the radiator or at least bulge or blow off a hose if the cap can't let out the excess pressure fast enough.. If the crack is into an oil galley, (block) which ever fluid is the higher pressure will pass to the area of lower pressure. Usually oil pressure (30-70PSI) will win over water (12-16psi cap pressure) If it is cracked between oil galley and water jacket, you will get oil in water. Cracks in the intake valve bowl area will pull water into the combustion chamber and may be VERY hard to find, as the water leaves with the exhaust. Same with a crack in the exhaust valve bowl area.
So it can vary. Usually (but not always) a cracked head putting combustion gases into the water will cause heating.
Good luck getting fixed.

[Pete S]

3rdgen,...........you're right! I really like this machine, and plan on having it till I can't drive anymore.

It's just been very dishartening as I didn't buy a "needs some fixing" tractor.

Not sounding like sour grapes,..............but kind'a took the fun out of a new toy.

I hope it's simple,..........as the service mgr told me he has seen this perticular engine go through a head gasket, as they don't have asbestos type material in them any more. And felt this perticular engine a sweetie, and real tough.

I'm hoping they have it apart by Thurs/Friday, and I'll keep you all posted.

[thenewguy]

I have seen Cummins 855/N14 engines leak through cracked heads only when torqued down (350+ ft/lbs) on the bench they test fine.... As mentioned it all depends on where the crack is and what the higher pressure around is. If you get a bit of white smoke on start up, chances are you are in a water jacket, as soon as that engine starts, the internal pressures are higher then the coolant system pressure, resulting in- bubbles in rad. An engine oil sample would probably be the only way to detect small amounts of coolant in the oil.

[Pete S]

The engine runs really well,..................and now that you mention it,.........I did get "some" whitish smoke when I put her in road gear and she was leanin' awn the governor.

Start up (which just takes a bump of the key) is light smoke then NOTHING,...........purrs like,..........well what I think it should, but am finding out how little I know.

Must be an age thing...........!

Pete

[3rdgen.maple]

Pete any word on the case? Remember the story I told about the guy who borrowed a tractor from me and blew a hose and filled it up with water? Well I ripped a radiator hose of the JD today hauling out logs lucky for me I have a little collection of hoses so replaced it pretty quick. Now all I got to do is remember to drain the water out and fill it with the right amount of antifreeze.

[KenWP]

3rdgen remember to put antifreeze in the tractor. I will remind you everyday untill you do it.

[3rdgen.maple]

KenWP please do as I lost my memory a long time ago and don't know where I put it. Thanks.

[3rdgen.maple]

KenWP you can rest at ease I got the radiator all flushed and filled with the correct ratio of antifreeze this morning.

[Pete S]

Still in the shop with no actual word other than: "We had an emergency call and won't get to rip it open until Tuesday".

My fingers will be BLUE from crossin'em that long!

Pete

Ripped another hose,...................WO you're werkin' yer stuff purty hard!

[3rdgen.maple]

Yeah tell me about it Pete Im in a mad hurry to get the wood in for the house. Messed up thing is After I replaced the hose and got the radiator all flushed and filled with antifreeze I ended up blowing another one. I think next time I will replace them all at the same time. So more antifreeze and more hoses and Im good again. I have said it a hundred times I WANT MY CASE BACK. I hate this JD with a passion. Everytime I use it I gotta fix something. I cannot even drive it out of the garage without something going wrong with it.

[lpakiz]

When we bought used cars for the kids, the first thing I did was change every belt and hose on it, regardless of condition or appearance. Gives peace of mind for 5+ years.

[Pete S]

Well,...............along with the head isse was a MAJOR clutch issue that was discovered by the repair mechanic as SOON as he got on the tractor.

VERY long story short, the total bill with tax and delivery etc. was just over $4K.

I suppose this should be my last post regarding this issue, as my wife and I agreed we (I) should move on with my life as it's not worth stewing over, but I owe it to those of you who may be looking to buy, etc.

The result of my 'recovery of loss" efforts:

Complained to: BBB Ohio, Dealer's Local Chamber of Commerce, Wisconsin Consumer Protection, as well multiple times to the Dealer via fax, email, phone, USPS.

I called Tractorhouse.com and spoke to several people, verdict being: "We're so sorry Sir, but we don't get involved with this type of thing". I would go on to share what I asked them as being compered to Ebay, and such where there is a mechanism to file a complaint,.............but they didn't care.

The dealer is Cross & Sons Equipment in Jackson OH.

I'm putting this behind me as I have a really nice tractor now, I have a near new clutch assembly with all related parts replaced as they were damaged,............and the head was reworked.

The tractor dynoed at 36 hp, at 620 RPM! (1900 hrs)

Thanks for all your responses.

[thenewguy]

So in the end, what was the root cause of the compression in the cooling system?? Head or head gasket?? Was it possible this engine was overheated at one time?

[Pete S]

From what I know,.............head gasket. BUT the machine shop does a valve pressure check, etc.

Could have been an overheat at one time.

I think this tractor came from a disfunctional home. I consider my purchase a rescue, and now I just need to love back to good health.

Pete

[3rdgen.maple]

Pete good to hear you got it back anyways. Just think everytime you use it you justified the cost of the repair. Pretty soon it will owe you nothing.