Dry line sizing help

[mapleack]

Hi, I need some advice on dryline sizing. Here's the scenario. I need to run 1,600' of dryline from a vacuum pump at the sugarhouse to a releaser that will have 250 to 300 taps on it. This line will be dry only with no sap in it. At some point in the future I want to continue from that releaser another 2,000' to a second releaser that would have approx. 400 taps on it. This line will be dry only. The existing bush with 250 taps is a newer system with 3/4 inch mains and laterals with no more than 10 taps per lat. I would follow the same guidelines in the future bush. I want to be sure that I install big enough line in my first phase to be able to support the future phase two. Thanks for your help!
-Andy

[Haynes Forest Products]

What size main line do you have into the releasers from the bush? Im guessing your going to go collect from the 2 differant releasers? So what your calling your dryline is is your main source of vacuum. Keep in mind that if all your trying to do is get vacuum back into the bush from a remote pump house the rules are differant thatnif the line was for liquid. If its a dryline it doesnt have to be level or stright. Depending on the pump size I would use 1" and build a booster/vacuum breaker at each releaser so you have ready vacuum so you dont suck sap into the dryline.

[mapleack]

What size main line do you have into the releasers from the bush? Im guessing your going to go collect from the 2 differant releasers? So what your calling your dryline is is your main source of vacuum. Keep in mind that if all your trying to do is get vacuum back into the bush from a remote pump house the rules are differant thatnif the line was for liquid. If its a dryline it doesnt have to be level or stright. Depending on the pump size I would use 1" and build a booster/vacuum breaker at each releaser so you have ready vacuum so you dont suck sap into the dryline.

Haynes,
1. 3/4 mains in the existing bush
2. yes i'll collect from each releaser
3. I'm talking about dryline only, no sap transfer
4. pumpsize will change, starting with a cheap dairy pump, planning on a ringpump in several years.

Thanks!

[Haynes Forest Products]

Then I would go with 1" only because its not that much more cost wise. The larger size will give you a faster recovery when the releasers dump. you can strap the dry/vacuum line to the mainlines. When you get to the releaser I would come up to it high with a larger booster/vacuum breaker between the vacuum line and releaser manifold. When you make your tank the bigger the diameter the less chance you will have of sap climbing up the tank into the vac line.

If you build your booster out of 3" PVC and on the top ware the vacuum line is located you can use bell reducers to go from 3" to 2" down to 1" poly barb fitting that will allow you to put a rubber ball in the tank and if sap ever does fill the tank the ball will shut down the sap flow. You need t make the tank big enough so the ball doesnt float on the incoming air and shut down the vac to the system.

[maplecrest]

i am currently running a 1600 foot dry line to a releaser at the bottom of the hill. i have400 taps on a single benard. i am using 1 inch dry. works great. one problem you will have to over come is moisture build up in the dry line. i have a vac gauge top at pump and on releaser. i had low vac at releaser .walked that whole woods, to figure out that there was water in the dry line, no vac.so you will need to drain the line every day or put in a moisture trap at the releaser, not pump!!!!, for the pump will draw moisture into the dry line trying to pull it [water] up hill.when empty transfered 27 inches no problem

[brookledge]

To add to both Haynes and maplecrest, as Haynes said you don't have to run the line level , but you do need to make drains at the low points as maplecrest said. That is very important otherwise with a freeze up and not sure where it is is like looking for a needle in a hay stack.
Also the reference of a dry line is usually refered to a line run parralel over your wet line and the line you are refering to although it will be dry it is your supply line.
I also agree 1" would be ok for your supply line
Good luck Andy
keith

[Haynes Forest Products]

Mapleack as brookledge was saying about a drain in the system to keep from freezing that you can do is make a self draining port out of a sump pump check valve. If you get the green ones from Home Depot they are a swing check type DO NOT USE A SPRING CHECK. What you want to do is come off the bottom of the lowest portion of the dryline and tee off the 1" line. I would put a long section of PVC just like a vacuum booster to hold the water that builds up. At the bottom of the PVC tank install a 90 degree fitting 1 1/4" so the check valve will mount to it. Make sure that you install so that the swing check gets sucked shut under vacuum. By having a large tank that can hold a gallon or so in the system it will keep sap/moisture from building up and going down the line. If you install the unit at the bottom of a long sag you will get better results. It should save you a trip per day into the bush and if you get worried about it filling up mid day shut the vac off for about 1 min and it will drain.

[caseyssugarshack93]

Maplecrest, on having that much vac line do you think the inches would decrease? im asking because i was thinking of doing that at one of my bushes because i have a power sorce up the hill and would just pipe the vacuum down to the releaser, probably only 750 ft though,


Thanks


Nate

[maplecrest]

the decrease is only an inch or so depending on the day. or type of day. humid weather [rain] lower vac levels due to moisture. i put a dairy moisture trap at the releaser, solved a lot of my problems. have sugar makers around here complaining about water getting into and deluting there cooling water with liquid ring pumps.same problem. a dairy water trap will solve that problem

[mapleack]

Thanks for all the advice so far! It wont be too hard for me to not have to worry about low spots, the first 500 ft will slope back to the sugar house and the next 1,100 ft will slope towards the releaser.

[vermaple]

Mapleack

The guys have filled you in quite well,I think, run your supply line on wire on a slope each way from the high point. Install a moisture trap at the vacuum pump, and a dairy type surge tank, booster tank, moisture trap (call it what you will) with self draining moisture drains in each. I like the rubber plugs that seal under vacuum and drop down when the vacuum pump is shut off. An alternative moisture trap that could be checked with the vacuum on could be set up with two valves and a piece of pipe.

I would also use 1-1/4" pipe for the first 1600' of pipe to give you a little extra volume for when you add the second releaser. I would be concerned about vacuum drop with two releasers on a 1" pipe if they happened to dump at the same time.

[Gerryfamily5]

I have run a bernard double on 1" @ 1,600' plus for several years.It worked ok and like you i was able to pitch both ways.I hung it on wire and never had a water/codensation problem once. But when the releaser dumped there was a signifigant vacum drop. I up sized the first 600' to 1 1/4" didn't help much.2years ago changed sugar house location so up sized to 1 1/2" @ 1900' had no vacum drop and releaser works well. Becareful not to go to small the first time, change out is a lot of work.

[Haynes Forest Products]

how long and how low is the vacuum drop?