Insulating The Arch

[MapleChaser]

Question: My Lighting arch came used with "3" 1inch layers of ceramic blanket insulation in it that was starting to breakdown. Iam going to replace everything this year. The question is can I replace with 3 inch fire brick and have the same insulation value? The ceramic blanket is #8 density rated for 2000 degree's. So do I have 6000 degree rating? How do you figure the insulation value? I should add that it is oil fired arch. It is a small brothers lighting arch that has a double wall.

Thanks M.C.

[3rdgen.maple]

Maplechaser what I was told to put in my arch from the builder was 1 layer of 1 inch blanket and one layer of split brick and it works just fine. My old arch had just 3 inch brick in it with no blanket and the sides got cherry red in the firebox area. With the blanket and half brick the sides stay alot cooler and I have even touched them quickly to see how hot they got. The bricks however get cherry red and so does the full brick I think the layer of blanket is the key and I don't know why you would need 3 layers of it like you said it gets beat up without the brick to protect it. I got my brick from concrete company that deals in all masonary products for alot less than ordering it from a supplier.

[Haynes Forest Products]

MapleChaser do you use oil or wood. I run my oil gun directly at the blanket and its 6 years old and looks like new. If your using wood then yes brick the firebox for protection. I wonder if having blanket behind the brick doesnt hold moisture over the summer causing rust out of the arch tin?

[Maplewalnut]

I start a fire in my rig every 4-6 weeks all year to chase out any condensation as Haynes suggests

[Haynes Forest Products]

MapleWalnut does that mean that you fill your pans or do you have a metal cover to simulate the pans to keep the fire in the arch? Im not around all year to do that and I know when I leave at the end of the season my blanket and arch are wet from cleaning and rely on the summer to dry it out. I think putting a good 1000Watt shop light in there with a timeer so it runs for 10hrs would do the trick and not hurt the pans. Not every day but every month would do. Low and Slow like a good rack of ribs MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[StewieSugar]

The ceramic blanket is #8 density rated for 2000 degree's. So do I have 6000 degree rating?

The short answer is "no." The 2000 degree rating is where the material starts to fall apart or melt. Adding a triple layer does not make the insulation able to withstand triple the temp - it just keeps three times the heat from escaping from the outside walls of the arch.

[3rdgen.maple]

Haynes that moisture thing raises thoughts I never considered before and going over it in my head Im glad that I have a stainless arch. But here is my 2 cents. I have some souped up snowmobiles that I try to keep in the best condition possible. I learned the hard way how too ruin main bearings and exhuast systems on them. I do all the recomended off season storage maintenance. When I first got into it my thoughts were if I started them in the off seasons on a regular basis it would keep moisture out of the motor and the ever so exspensive exhaust system. Well end result was rusted pipes and main bearings ruined from the rust. After talking with several snowmobile techs the result was never ever start them during the summer. I was told by all that yes it dries out the motor and pipes but it draws more moisture back into it from the heat changes. Ever since then they get the regular maintenance at the end of the winter and the pipes don't rust and the bearings are all good. So the short end of the story I don't think I would be heating up that arch during the summer.

[Haynes Forest Products]

3Gen Living in Colo We dont think about rust like I do when Im back in Wisc. Now you got me thinking about the things not to do Like over chargings a car battery inside a humid workshop full of SS or steel.

[KenWP]

Another thing you don't do not that I ever did is store a shotgun in the water treatment room of a huge pig barn that might treat lagoon water with chlorine. Seems ot make it rust a lot faster.
I stored my pan and the evaporator separate for a reason. I stored a snowmobile for 6 years with out ever starting it and just had to put a new battery in it and start it up and sold it to the first person who offered me enough money.

[3rdgen.maple]

Haynes just curious but what happens when you overcharge a battery in that situiation? I was thinking about that moisture thing all day today. While I was working on a customers printing press today I had a thought. We put big oil socks at the bases of the larger presses to soak up the oil that drains into the drip pans, you know the ones that soak up moisture and are bout 4 inches in diameter and come in various lengths. Why not through a couple of them in the arch during the off season. It is amazing how fast we can kill a guys thread on the trader sorry.

[KenWP]

Okay just for curiosity what do you guys pay for ceramic blanket down there. I bought my last peice from D&G and thought it might have been a little much. If I could figure out what a stove or fireplace store was called I would check with them to see if they had it cheaper. I assume that on those insert fireplaces they use it behind to insulate the things.

[3rdgen.maple]

Ken I got my 1" x 1' x 3' arch board from Bascoms and I think it was 8.75 each. As far as going to a stove or fireplace store forget about it I did that first and they are so expensive it is crazy. They wanted almost 20 bucks for the same thing and split brick was around 30 bucks for 6. I did however get my brick cheaper than bascoms at a concrete place for well under a dollar apeice.

[KenWP]

I am not sure what you guys call arch board. I had assumed it was that grey board that looks like asbestos board but isn't. Pardon my ingnorance but up here I can't just go any place and ask for things. I have to know what it's called and then figure out a french word for it.

[3rdgen.maple]

Ken I understand your delima. Yes that is what arch board is. It is easy to work with and can be cut to size with a knife. I believe it has something like 2300* rating but like I said I not sure if you could beat Bascom's price at a local fireplace store or what is called Hearth and Home stores here. Bascom's maple supply is online if you wanna take a look and I'm sure places like Leader and the such would be about the same in price. What does it cost at D&G?

[KenWP]

I had just purchased ceramic blanket from D&G and it was $3:50 a square foot I believe for the 1 1/2 inch thick blanket. I have not found the arch board your talking about here yet. What I thought was arch board is grey sheets of a hard fireproof board about 3/8 inch thick and its hard to cut with a saw even. I will have to check out the online stores I guess. The firebrick I can buy from Rona here at a decent price I believe.

[3rdgen.maple]

No arch board is 1 inch thick and is well like a board, but the best way I can describe it is it is dark green with compressed fibers and it has the consistency of a dry sponge. unfortunetly I am not sure any of the dealers have pictures of it just the item and price. It is great stuff to work with as it does not need to be fastened to the sides cause it is stiff. Just cut to shape and size then brick over it and you are good to go. I have some small pieces leftover if you want send me a pm of your address and I will send a scrap piece to you to check out.

[red maples]

On www.sugarbushsupplies.com they have the name as "block insulation board"

If I remember right I think AmberGold (josh) has some photos of bricking his arch and he lines his with the board which you can see.

which is better for lining your arch blank or board? the board rating that I have found is 1900 degrees and blanket at 2300 and 2600. but the blanket is a little more than the board but I have heard is easier to work with. Does anyone know about how much refractory cement I will need for a 2x6?

[KenWP]

I found out about it being called block board insulation and pictures of it from the manufacture. I have a couple of phone numbers from them of places in Quebec that sell it also. Thats 1900 degress celcuis I beleive which is like a lot in US temps.

[red maples]

1900 C wow yeah I didn't know it doesn't specify F or C that is like huge in F. Ken you were talking about preheaters in one of your posts some time ago...I was thinking what about wrapping tubbing around the stack? then into the evap. it would have to be vented for steam to be let out I would think? what do you think about that.

[KenWP]

Lots of guys have head tanks higher then the evaporator and wrap copper tubeing around the stack and into the evaporator. Depending on how many wraps and the speed you evaporate it heats the sap up not to bad. I did it that way this year and got okay results. I had a valve on the end to control the flow so that it kept the sap hot enough and according to my needs. Next year I am going to use a couple more wraps and then cover the tubeing up with tin. When I run out of sap I turn the tubeing away from the evaporator and run water thru it untill I am done.
I found that if it got to hot it vented back into the head tank and once in a while I had a air lock and had to open the valve a little more to cool it down. The I closed it down again and away I went. Make sure you use a ball valve to control it. I found the more pressure from the head tank the better it worked also.

[3rdgen.maple]

Red maple the amount of refactory cement will depend on how well of a job you did fitting the brick. When I did mine it only took 2 small pails, I think they were gallon pails.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I think most of the board is rated for 1900 degrees F, so it would be significantly lower C.

[KenWP]

Board I found is rated for 1430 degrees C which comes out to 2400 F but they have all kinds of the stuff. I just have to find somebody who speaks enough english that sells the stuff around here. If not I have to buy ceramic blanket which is a lot more. I bought a peice 4x2 last time and it was $28 there abouts. This time I need a lot more of it.

[3rdgen.maple]

Ken is there any reason why you cannot order it through Bascoms or another outfit. Like I said I payed 8.75 apeice for archboard through Bascoms. Had it here the next day as ground shipping is only one day out from them to me.

[red maples]

That seems to be alot for board 3rd gen is right. bascom's price is the best I have found.

Thanks 3rdgen.maple I am not a mason but my local ace hardware carries small containers as well as gallon size too. for pretty cheap too.

[3rdgen.maple]

Red no problem If you don't have enough you can go back for more easy enough then. Did you get premixed or powder? Both work well but I think with the powder you get more bang for your buck.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Call a boiler supply house and get the bags of boiler cement its cheap and easy to apply. Rememder if you mix it it hardens and if its mixed it dries. Heat is what will make it strong and if its premixed you have all day to work with it. Wet the bricks first and the cement/morter will adhear better. Let it dry slowly and then apply heat. Dont mix it to runny the thicker the better and moist brick will not suck the water out of the mix causing it to shrink and fail.

[sticky mess]

I had the same results with a coil on the stack, you really have to pay attention because when it vapor locks no more sap comes in until you clear the problem.

[red maples]

I didn't buy any cement yet I was looking for opinions first. I have found on this site it's good to ask before you buy. Especially being a rookie I try to find out as much info as possible... I do like the idea of buying the cement wet then you just recover it and pick up later and thanks for the wetting the bricks tip I never even thought of that. do you just put them in a bucket of water for a few minutes???

[KenWP]

I will have to get the arch built and then see how much I need. I am busy with other things and thinking is not really in the cards right now. Since it just the flue part of the arch I might just use the insulation and fore go the brick for now. I wonder if a guy could use old ceramic floor tiles over the insulation.

[3rdgen.maple]

red, haynes is right on the money with wetting the bricks. Just dunk them in a pail of water or spray them with a hose.

[deckers007]

So on a homemade wood fired arch, Can i just use fire brick? or should i put ceramic blanket under the brick. If so who do i do this, will the softer ceramic make it difficult for my firebricks to stay in place?

Thanks

[C.Wilcox]

So on a homemade wood fired arch, Can i just use fire brick? or should i put ceramic blanket under the brick. If so who do i do this, will the softer ceramic make it difficult for my firebricks to stay in place?

Thanks

You can use just firebrick, but the sides of your arch may get really hot. If you can afford the ceramic blanket or the archboard it would be a good addition. It keeps the heat under your pan where it belongs. If you use split bricks you might need to mortar them into place to keep them from falling when you toss in firewood. Full bricks are more likely to stay in place without mortar provided you're careful when loading.

[Ausable]

So on a homemade wood fired arch, Can i just use fire brick? or should i put ceramic blanket under the brick. If so who do i do this, will the softer ceramic make it difficult for my firebricks to stay in place?

Thanks

Hey Deckers - I think C Wilcox is right. On my homemade rig - have standoffs welded to the inside walls of my arch and heavy screen tacked to the standoffs. The full fire brick is between the arch walls and the screen. Have boiled with it for two seasons and no problems yet. However - that said - when testing the almost syrup with a hydrometer or drawing off it - is a bit warm standing there. A simple fix for my current setup - would be sheet metal with standoffs attached to the outside of the arch with about a 3/4 inch air space -- I would have to tune that idea up a bit.