Copper Flue Pan

[PARKER MAPLE]

OK HUYS I HAVE RECIENTLY PURCHASSED MY FIRST FLUE PAN, AND ITS MADE OF COPPER. THE PERSON THAT I BOUGHT IT OFF OF HAS MADE ALOT OF SYRUP OUT OF THESE PANS AND DIDNT HAVE A CHANCE TO CLEAN THEM.:cry: SO MY QUESTION IS, HOW DO YOU CLEAN A COPPER FLUE PAN, THE FIRST APPROACH THAT I TOOK WAS USING WHITE VINAGER MIXED WITH A FULL PAN OF WATER, I LET IT SET OVEN NIGHT AND THEN WENT TO TOWN ON IT WITH A SCOTCH BRITE PAD:evil: . IT DIDNT EVEN TOUCH IT:cry: .. SO WHAT DO I DO, PLEASE HELP!!!:confused:

[brookledge]

Did you put in enough vinegar? And in most cases it needs to sit more than a day
Keith

[PARKER MAPLE]

I Put About One Gallon In.. Maybe I Will Try It Again And Let It Set For Two Or Three Days?? Does Anybody Else Have A Copper Flue Pan??

[NH Maplemaker]

I think you will find that if you can heat the vinegar and water than let it set it will work better. The hotter the better ! It doesn't haft to boil, but hot so you don't want your fingers in it and steaming good ! Than as brookledge said let it set for a couple three days. Don't forget it as I'm not sure how vinegar and copper are going to get along! Works fine with stainless,may be to much acid for soft metal. Another thing is depending on how big this pan is, one may not be enough ! Is that 1 Gal or one Qt in how much water? Jim L.

[vermaple]

Rookie,
I would be very careful with any kind of acid in a copper pan. A shiney copper pan now will be oxidized and dull long before sugaring time. Leader quit making copper pans only a few years ago when they changed to all welded. I suggest calling Randy at Leader and discussing care with him. The date if it is still on the pan will tell you if it is lead free solder or not. If it is not do not try to clean it to bare metal. Just enjoy the heat conductivity of the copper pan.

[Jim Brown]

We use vinegar half way through the sesaon on our rig, the trick is USE ENOUGHT!.we use about 8 gallon per cleaning and the tubes in the steamaway are copper and they really shine when we are finished. same with the rig. Next thing vinegar is cheap!! about $1.00 a gallon around here
Our two cents
Jim

[Haynes Forest Products]

Maple Rookie I didnt see anything about what you were trying to remove from the pans. Sounds silly but if you put vinagar in it then you removed the niter. If you have ever had a copper fitting or copper anything and it has a green coating or dull petina your in for alot of work. When I do plumbing and I clean a copper fitting and flux it and then dont use it and moisture gets to it over about a month I might as well throw it out. If you have the really green coating you will have pitting underneath the oxidation...............Glass beads

[PARKER MAPLE]

sorry guys im just trying to remove the nitre, i called leader and talked to john today, they said dont try in put anything with acid base in to it, because there not sure being the date of the rig it might have lead solder.:cry: if it dose how would i tell???:confused: they said try using baking soda, mixe about 3 boxes and fill the flue pan and wait 2-3 days before scrubbing, what do you think, should i give it a shot???

[brookledge]

They are correct in saying it will expose the lead solder if it was made with lead solder. If it has a date on it or a label that says lead free solder then you will know for sure. But as you were originally asking was to remove nitre.
If the lead solder is left with a light coat of nitre it will greatly reduce lead leaching into your syrup.
Keith

[3rdgen.maple]

Just a quick question but how many people have died from lead solder in their sap pans??????????????

[brookledge]

The biggest issue I have with lead is young children. My kids love syrup and I wouldn't want to knowingly feed them syrup with lead in it.Kids are more susceptible to lead than adults. As for myself I'm not so worried about it. I had my syrup tested once and it was low, well under the amount allowed.
keith

[3rdgen.maple]

Well that is what I would call a good answer. I just feel that this lead in the evaporator thing is way overated. Has anyone ever had their syrup tested and not meet the specs? And if so did it fail pror to boiling or a just after? And if the lead leaches out of the solder then how long before the lead is all leached out?

[Haynes Forest Products]

You can by test kits that inspectors use to test plumbing joints. Home inspectors can test copper plumbing during a home inspection. I dont think you can have all the lead leach out of the material its lead that would be like removing all the silica from a glass window and still have a window. In California they are mandating all brass fixtures that are used for potable water not contain lead so if crazy Calf. is going that far how long before it hits us. Tin cans were solderd with lead and people were getting sick way back in the 1800s

[3rdgen.maple]

That was my point how much actually leaches out if there is still a lead solder joint after years and years of use? The exposure time in an evaporator is minimal compared to a tin can that sits on the shelf for months before being used. I think lead is a concern I just think it is overated in the maple world. The exposure time is small. Now if your packing your syrup in tin jugs that have lead solder that would be a different story.

[PARKER MAPLE]

OK GUYS, THANKS FOR THE CONVERSASION. :lol: BUT WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO CLEAN IT UP???:confused: ALSO IF I WANTED TO RESOLDER THE OLD JOINTS HOW WOULD I GO ABOUT IT:confused: ??

[vermaple]

Rookie,
Lead test sticks are available at hardware stores. I suggest getting some and determining if you have lead free solder or not. A lot of syrup is made in pans with lead solder, tested for lead and is consistently well below the limits for lead. However if this is the case the best thing to do is leave the normal light film of niter on the pan as it covers the solder and minimizes any leaching of lead into the syrup. And yes as previously stated leaching increases with time. Time really only becomes a factor when sap is setting in the pan between boils.

Vermaple

[KenWP]

Just how bad is the niter in this pan anyways is the question. If it's not to bad leave it for another year and then just clean it to get the yearly deposits off and not worrk about the first coat. Then your safe lead wise. If the pans not to big it could be resoldered not to expensively or even just cover the inside lead with sliver to cover things up.

[PARKER MAPLE]

would that hold up ok, if i just resolderd right over the old? ive never payed much attenion to soldering but a buddy of mine will know.. also the nitre is built up probaby 1/32s thick or so here and there, i will try to post some pictures tommorow. thanks m.r.

[argohauler]

It's supposed to cause brain damage in children. The amount of lead in syrup probably won't cause damage by itself. It's just another source of bio-accumulation that they're trying to eliminate.

They're digging up our town right now because they did water testing and found lead.

I think the Roman's fell because they were making water pipes out of lead.

[TapME]

good luck trying to re-soldier your pans. the new soldier takes a different kind of paste and cleaning agent. As far as the buildup try heating some hot water and use that and start in with a plastic putty knife and see if that helps. As far as the lead soldier in copper pipes, well just think every house built before 1990 has it and we are all going to die but not from the lead in the water pipes but all the preservatives in our food. Just my half cent.

[3rdgen.maple]

Maple Rookie sorry for stealing your thread and turning it into another lead debate. As far as cleaning your pans like others have said white vinegar does wonders on stainless steel. How much I dilute it depends on how bad they are but I think a 50/50 mixture will work good let it sit overnight and do some mild scrubbing and let her sit again. It takes the niter out of my pans very well. If it is pretty thick you might let it sit longer.

[PARKER MAPLE]

SO THIS IS WHAT IVE DONE, I CALLED LEADER ABOUT THIS COPPER PAN, HE SAID QUITE POSSIBLY THAT IT WAS BUILT IN 2000-05 OR WHAT EVER, SO I ASKED HOW TO GO ABOUT CLEANING IT... HE SAID NOT TO USE ANYTHING WITH ACID IN IT, AND SUGGESTED USING BAKING SODA.. SO I BOUGHT A BIG BOX AND FILLED THE PAN, AS IM FILLING IT I MIXED THE WHOLE BOX IN WITH IT, LET IT SET UNTIL TODAY WENT BACK DOWN THIS AFTERNOON AND STARTED SCRUBBING.. WELL I DONT THINK IT EVEN TOUCHED THE NITRE BUILD UP. WHAT TO DO KNOW???DID I MIVE ENOUGH OR SHOULD I US MORE??? I WONDERING ABOUT MY PRESSURE WASHER, IF THAT WOULD TAKE IT OFF, IF IM CAREFULL?? IF THIS THING IS SOLDER WITH LEAD SOLDER, CAN I RESOLDER OVER THE LEAD SOLDER WITH NEW NON-LEAD SOLDER AS A COVER UP?? IF I EXPOSE IT.. IF SO THEN I WOULD SIMPLE USE THE WHITE VINAGER AND LET IT SET.. IM SURE THAT THIS WOULD WORK..

PLEASE HELP:confused:

[KenWP]

Scrub it with bakeing soda instead of soaking it. Bakeing soda makes a mild abrasive cleaner if you use it as a paste. You can use it to polish brass and copper and silver.

[3rdgen.maple]

Maple rookie baking soda is not gonna touch the stuff and it will take you till spring to scrub it and I have pressure washed my pans in the past it cleans them but does not get the hard baked on niter off. What was the reasoning why leader told you not to use any kind of acid? Your biggest concern is the bottom where the heat is.

[BarrelBoiler]

don't know how nitered up your pan is i used an old pan my uncle simmered down sap in and it had alot of residue in it with some clean patches the more i boiled the bigger the patches became. after the season i poured cider vineger in it and warmed it up. while it was cooking ( and concentrating just like sap) i took a plastic scrub brush and worked at the edges of the clean patches and got them larger then rinsed and rised and rinsed with clean water. never got all the residue out but i left it better than it was

if your pan was "company made" recently it should be lead free solder, homemade who knows get a test kit and check

resoldering is a real challange.... simple folds might get clean enough but the complex folds that are used on some pans are tough. soldering over the old solder would just cause leaks leadfree solder takes more heat to soften than older solder IMO
good luck

[PARKER MAPLE]

Maple rookie baking soda is not gonna touch the stuff and it will take you till spring to scrub it and I have pressure washed my pans in the past it cleans them but does not get the hard baked on niter off. What was the reasoning why leader told you not to use any kind of acid? Your biggest concern is the bottom where the heat is.

he would not commit to my pans being lead free, told me to get a test kit. wich im looking for today at a few hardware stores. so not knowing if it is lead free, he said if you put anykind of acid based fluid in. it could remove the top coating of the solder exposing the lead. vinager being an acid he didnt think i should us it. man this is starting to be a hassel.. you see 3rdgen, the bottom of my flue pan is made up of tubes that run front too back. they are in a drop flue that is shaped in a v. one on each side. each v flue is home two apprx 10 of these copper tubes. so with this in mind my problem is nearly impossible to clean down underneath them where the heat is. yes there is some build up on the side( thats normal) but underneath i believe im just goning to have too let is soak??

[C.Wilcox]

Just a random thought on this....if you've got scale in the pans now that protects the lead from leaching out why wouldn't you have scale in your pans next season after you boil for a few hours? In other words, it doesn't seem to me like scale over lead solder is a hard thing to replace. It might be a bit wasteful and difficult for a syrup addict to do, but if you just boiled down a few gallons of sap next spring and then tossed it out your pan should be sufficiently coated again to prevent lead transfer, or so I would think. Do you have hard water at your place? If so, clean your pan with whatever you want and then run a few batches of unsoftened water through your pan. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the hard water at my house will build up a cake of scale in no time at all if I don't keep salt in the softener. I've replaced more than few coffee makers because of it. Just my thoughts.

[Haynes Forest Products]

The Beer industry uses alot of copper kettles what are they using to clean the crud out with?

[KenWP]

Thats what bock beer is for when they clean the equipment. If it dosn't have seams then you can clean it pretty easy.

[Haynes Forest Products]

So what I understand to be the problem is he can clean the pans but he doesnt want to get them clean and clean the solderd seams. My suggestion is to scrap them next time copper hits record levels:mad: OR I would clean them every season even if the solder shines so be it and let the oxidation cover the solder over the boiling season and not worry about it and if pressure from other producers gets to much just remember it was another sugar maker that sold them to him.

[vermaple]

So what I understand to be the problem is he can clean the pans but he doesnt want to get them clean and clean the solderd seams. My suggestion is to scrap them next time copper hits record levels:mad: OR I would clean them every season even if the solder shines so be it and let the oxidation cover the solder over the boiling season and not worry about it and if pressure from other producers gets to much just remember it was another sugar maker that sold them to him.

Good suggestion Haynes. OR he can leave the niter on the pan like the last guy did and not worry about it. Before stainless most people did not worry about a little niter on the pan from year to year.

[3rdgen.maple]

Personally I would not worry about the little bit of lead and clean with the vinegar. I guess I mised the part where it is the flue pan that you were trying to clean and not the syrup pan. If you have a flue pan with niter buildup in it I would guess it has never been cleaned. Maybe just boil water in it first and as the season progresses keep cleaning that pan I gotta believe the raw sap is gonna help clean the niter.

[lpakiz]

How bout some of the guys here who let raw sap ferment for a few weeks? I understand it smells to high heaven but cleans up the pan...

[KenWP]

I was makeing rhubarb juice today and it cleans up a SS pan very well. Any stains clean away very well. Try cooking that in it instead. I personally would not worry about it .As long as it boils sap like it's supposed to just go with the flow and not worry about it.