buying sap/renting trees.

[twobears1224]

i,ve been thinking about buying sap and/or renting trees.i,ve found the price list for buying delivered sap.i,am wondering what the going rate is on just renting trees??? or buying sap that i pickup??

delbert

[benchmark]

From what it sounds like here, 1 gallon on syrup per 100 taps (granted the person wants syrup). I'm guessing on buying sap, depends, but i think i read on here that someone was paying .50 a gallon for 3% this season; probably delivered though.

[brookledge]

I pay one landowner .50 per tap and others just want syrup so I base the amount of syrup on the .50 per tap.
Bottom line is "What is it worth to you"
If you are in an area that it is unlikely that anyone else would be interested that is good for you but if are likely to have others interested in the same bush you may have to be a little higher.
Keith

[KenWP]

At 50 cents a gallon for sap it would cost over 14 bucks a gallon for enough sap to make a gallon of syrup. Dosn't leave much for the rest of the costs involved.

[halfast tapper]

At 50 cents a gallon for sap it would cost over 14 bucks a gallon for enough sap to make a gallon of syrup. Dosn't leave much for the rest of the costs involved.

You also have to look at the cost of setting up a bush which I think is in the neighborhood of 6 dollars a tap not including the storage tank. Then the maintainence involved time to tap and clean , the gathering time. In my opinion it's cheaper or maybe just less headache to write a check for the sap instead of all the other hassles, unless you have the time.

[twobears1224]

i drive a school bus for the beneifits and i work for myself the rest of the time. so,i guess you can say i have alot of time to do this.
i have a few trees of my own and i know theres others around.i tapped a bush just up the road a few years back and sold the sap.the guy just likes to see it tapped and it costs three gallons of syrup a year to get it...500 taps
acrossed the road from there is another bunch of trees i think i can get not sure on numbers of taps tho.
i have a couple tanks and i just bought a fixxer upper 4x16 arch.the castings are all good but it needs retinning.i have 1/8 inch plate to do that.i just need a flue pan for it.
i have my own sawmill so lumber can be had pretty cheap for a sugarhouse and i,am handy building things.
i,ve been thinking and i think sugaring would fit in well with my driving job.so,i,am looking into it.

delbert

[twobears1224]

i,ve been looking into this sugaring thing alot.i bought a 4x16 king fixer upper arch.i,am looking at pans now.i,am also getting ready to saw lumber for a sugar house.i,ve also been driving around the area looking for untapped trees..i found a couple.. :D
the big things is like always..having the start up costs in my pocket.i,de like to drive right in with atleast a couple thousand taps but i guess i,ll have to start however big or small i need too.
i,am going to use the gallon of syrup per hundred taps to start.if the guy wants syrup in trade for tapping his trees i,ll give him that.if they want cash i,ll just use the cost of a gallon divided by 100.if somebody wants to sell me sap at the sugarhouse i,ll buy based on the published pricelist.
one thing i,ve been thinking about is a contract between me and the trees owners..i know how people can be and how they can forget things.
i,de like it in writing that i have the right to tap there trees for so long...i,am thinking atleast five years,i also want it in writing about when i can and can,t go on there land each year..folks around here don,t want you on there land in deer hunting season..i,am thinking from jan 1st till ooo,say oct 1st..just before hunting season starts.i think i also need to include something about putting lines up and leaving them up or not..i,de like to leave the mainlines up year around.the small lines i,de like to atleast roll them up and tie them to the mainline and/or a small tree close by.i,de put quick disconnects in the mainlines at all trails/roads.
one thing i,de like to do is manage the woods i tap.i,de like to be able to go thur the woods in the summer and thin out the small trees,ect..i could get my sugarwood that way and improve the trees i tap..i need to figure out the wording on that for a contract.i,de go in and mark the trees i need to cut and bring in the land owner to show them what i have planned.i,de also want the price per cord i,de be paying in writing.i could base that on a published list ny state has for stumpage loggers are paying for firewood/pulpwood.
i,de also want it in writing when i have to pay the tree owners each year.i,de like to pay after sugaring season is over..i,ll be selling mostly in bulk so i could settle up after i get payed.
is there anything i,am forgetting?? if so fill me in.

delbert

PS:i,am not new to sugaring..i,ve been involved in it my whole life..my dad and uncle had 3100 taps and now my dad has 1300plus of his own.. i,ve just never tapped my own..well,not big time anyhow.

[Brent]

I thinnk the math above needs a review.

1 tap should give 1 quart of syrup over a season

4 taps should give a gallon

4 x 50 cents is $ 2.00

I'd pay that for my next 100 taps in a heartbeat.

[dschultz]

where i'm at I give the land owner a quart of syrup for every 50 trees I tap
I also buy sap and I paid 12 cents a point per gallon but I don't buy anything less than 2%

[KenWP]

Brent if you read it right the price was 5o cents a gallon for 3% sap so if you divide 89 by 3 you get 29.666 x.5 = 14.8333 dollars for a gallon of syrup. pretty simple math if you ask me. Would be cheaper to rent trees at 50 cents a peice if you got decent flows. For me 150 trees times .5 =$75 bucks for a season of sap which would not be to bad. You would only need 2 gallons of syrup to break even on the cost of the trees. Now to recoup the labour and such would take a lot more to say the least but at least you would have trees to tap.

[Brent]

I figured the math had to be wrong. $ 14 is way over board.

I'd sit and watch TV or mess around on the forum before I'd pay that much.

[fred]

ken buying sap is sap to the sugar house. the way you figure you still have to pay for buckets or tubing,labor fuel etc. you gotta look at it fair.

[KenWP]

I allready figured out that was delivered for the sap. I would also guess that if the sap was lower brix you would have to prorate the price somewhat to allow for that. Works out to 33 cents a gallon for 2% the way I see it. I guess if a person needed sap to supply a market it would work. If your just makeing syrup for yourself it would be rather expensive.

[orange county maple]

There is pros and cons to both. A couple of things to think about are what your needs are time and expense. To buy sap is easy the person calls and says they have sap for sale at so much $ per %of sugar content give the guy some cash and your ready to boil.
When thinking of leasing a bush you should make a lease agreement with the property owner to protect them and you. There is alot of time, labor, and materials involved in setting up a sugarbush. You dont want the property owner logging for quick cash or telling you to remove your lines. Also you want to treat the owner fairly on what you pay them. You can make money by leasing no taxes, no intial cost of property. By screwing the owner after the lease is up you might be take all your tubing down more labor. Treat the bush like it was your own and clean up as you go alot easier and better when the owner walks through the woods.
Anyway you look at it think what is right for me and my sugaring operation. GOOD LUCK and grow more taps for everyone every maple excluding boxelders?

[PerryW]

for the trees I tap that I DON'T own, I give a gallon of syrup for every 60-100 taps.

Brent

While a one tap may yield $10-$15 dollars worth of syrup, as we all know here, a considerable amount of time and labor are required to produce and sell that quart of syrup. It's the same reason that a logger pays me $30 per cord for firewood stumpage and sells the cords for $300.

[Haynes Forest Products]

It does get complicated as to who is responsible for what part of the transaction if you rent the trees or the bush. If the woods are a mess and dead trees are falling and knocking down all the lines is it your responsibility to cut, cut and remove ,cut and stack, cut and remove and burn.

[maple flats]

I pay $.50/tap. I give as much syrup as they want, using my retail prices to calculate and pay the rest in cash (check). For example, I had a bush this year with 350 taps x .50=$175. They wanted 6 qts syrup, which I supplied in 3 x 1/2 gal jugs (I sold 1/2 gal for $25.00 ea. 3x25=$75 and i wrote a check for $100. They were happy and I was comfortable with it.

[brookledge]

I do it just as Maple Flats does
Keith

[3rdgen.maple]

1/2 gallon for 25 bucks I'm buying. Grocery stores around here sell their quarts for that.

[Justin Turco]

I see that the state of Vermont is looking at leasing some state property for sugaring. They are going to charge 25 percent of the "average" price bulk per pound of the last years fancy and grade b / per tap. Know what I mean?.. JT

[KenWP]

That would work out on $3 syrup to be 75 cents a tap. I would pay that or even a dollar to have the privilage to tap trees. As long as they were decent trees .

[Clan Delaney]

Does anyone have a form letter (or something or the sort) that they've used with success in the past to request permission to tap someone else's land? I'm working on something of my own, but since this is the first time I've done this, I'd love to have something to compare to. I want to give the owner just enough info, but not overwhelm them with every detail of what we do.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Patrick,

Good to see ya back on here! Wondered where you have been. Gentleman's agreement has always worked good for me but every area is different.

[Clan Delaney]

All I have is an address for the landowner that I got through online town records. My plan was to send a letter, rather than showing up at this woman's doorstep.

Yeah, I know I haven't posted in awhile, but I've been lurking, trying to keep posts in the right threads. Now I'm in panic mode for the upcoming season. When I came home tonight, it felt like sugaring weather!!!

[brookledge]

Patrick
In the back of the NAMSPM appendix 5 is a whole section on leases and sample forms
Keith

[howden86]

I pay about 33 cents a gallon for 2.0 brix delivered to my sugarhouse. For lease payment I help the landowner with their fruit harvest. A sugarmaker about 40 miles from me is advertising 55 cents a gallon for 2.0

[maple flats]

For 55 cents a gallon, they are paying $23.65 for the sap to make 1 gal of syrup. Too much. You could never make a profit at that rate. Too many expenses unless you want to fool yourself and only count the difference between the retail price of syrup and the purchased sap. You must figure in ALL costs or you can just keep boiling until your money is all gone.

[maple flats]

Going back to my post from last June about my price. Please realize, I sold out all of my syrup at retail by the end of April and it was much was presold and on order before I even made it, except some commercial to Bascom in May. That was before the price shot way high. To figure now I think the 1/2 gal price will be about $30 and a gal about $55. This being said, I plan to raise my tap rental price to .55 a tap this year. By the way, I only pack Gal when ordered, most is packed in qts and pts, followed by a few 1/2 gal and 1/2 pts. I had not taken pre orders before last year but did last year from some orders I could not fill in 08 because I ran out. I told them I would sell them some at the same price if they still wanted it when produced in 09 (many did want it) and I stood behind my word. Running out stemed from 3 newspaper articles that featured my operation in 08 that brought in way more business than I could handle. Likely i should have just bought some bulk and re packed it but too late now. In the future I will buy if and when needed because I lost a lot of sales.

[220 maple]

I leased my neighbors trees for 5 years. My agreement is signed by both parties. My deal is just about like making hay on someone elses farm. Every 300 gallon of sugar water should produce 6 gallon of syrup. I get 5 they get 1. They can take it in Syrup or it can be sold wholesale when I sell my syrup wholesale. If their trees produce like I think they should or as good as the trees in the next hollow which I own they should easily have over 40 gallons of syrup to sell. That should be 440 pounds at $2.50 a pound. Over 800 dollars. If they get that much I get 5 times that much. They are Happy and I'm Happy. Of coarse in the agreement I am obigated to provide them with the amount of sap that has been gather from their trees daily if they request that info. We keep daily sap records from all are tanks. That will be the easy part.

Mark 220 Maple

[3rdgen.maple]

Clan clean out your PM box it is full:D . Not to steal this thread and I apologize for that. Any progress on the tap count chart?

[w9dwg]

One other point that would help to get the rental cost down, is that in my area, wooded land are zoned recreational; Therfore are taxed recreational. After the first year, the property can be zoned agriculture which is based on income created from the crop. This is a huge tax break for the landowner. Not sure, but I think my neighbors 40 that I tap, his taxes were reduced by $220.
Check your local tax essement in the county and township. This is a great selling point for the landowners that don't like taxes and now my neighbor won't allow me to pay him for renting his trees.

[Clan Delaney]

One other point that would help to get the rental cost down, is that in my area, wooded land are zoned recreational; Therfore are taxed recreational. After the first year, the property can be zoned agriculture which is based on income created from the crop. This is a huge tax break for the landowner. Not sure, but I think my neighbors 40 that I tap, his taxes were reduced by $220.
Check your local tax essement in the county and township. This is a great selling point for the landowners that don't like taxes and now my neighbor won't allow me to pay him for renting his trees.

That is a great selling point. I'll have to look into that.

[Clan Delaney]

Hey guys. Another question....

When you make a request to tap on someone's property, do you negotiate in advance how many taps you plan to set, or do you set what you are able/need and report that number to the owner at the end of season?

What do you do?

For the purposes of the request I'm drafting, I thinking of offering both options to the landowner and letting them choose.

Thoughts?

And if anyone uses Google Documents, I'd be glad to share the draft I'm working on to get your opinions. Just send me your email.

[Jim Brown]

Clan; we set the price per tap weather it will be on vac or not and then the landowner takes our count as to the number of taps. You have to have a trusting landowner and give him a good count.


We have all ours except 300 taps on leased land
Works for us.
Jim

[maple flats]

I do the same as Jim Brown. As I said earlier, I'm planning to pay $.55 per tap. I have always set the price, taken the count (always honest count) and then asked them how much syrup they want. After they get the syrup I calculate the balance and write them a check. I pay syrup starting as soon as I make some starting with light then some medium and then dark (have never paid in extra dark, never asked) but don't write the check until a week or 2 after the end of the season. I have only rented from 3 different land owners and all 3 liked how I handle it. Because 2 were smaller bushes, too small to be worth it after I found a much bigger on, I now only rent from 1, but no bridges were burnt and I could go to the other 2 if I wanted.