hi performance lats

[PATheron]

You guys that are really going for the numbers. Latteral length and number or taps. What do you guys think the magic numbers are? Dont tell me main to every tree becouse thats my dream too. Whats in your sugar bushes. Theron

[sapman]

Theron,
I've heard for the last couple years 5 taps ideal, 10 max, and 100' or less in length. I'm sure you've heard that. I think most of my lats on the hill fall into that category, averaging only about 3.5 taps/lat, and I tried to keep them as straight as feasible going uphill. But some zigzag more than I'd like.

In the swamp, it's a different story. Everywhere you look, there are reds. I scratch my head deciding where to go next. So those aren't so pretty, with too long of laterals, too many taps often, and not enough slope. Those need reworking with more mains eventually.

Tim

[Haynes Forest Products]

I didnt set up the woods I tap so I have laterals with 20 trees on them. It was a gravity system before I defiled it with vacuum. 10 average and will some day install alot of 1/2 branch lines out. I also make other improvments that seem to increase my sap totals so we tend to put the big changes off till next year. I do believe you should always do it right the first time and plan for expansion. I also believe you should do whats possible and within your skill level and budget. Something is better than nothing.

[maplecrest]

my new woods was 4 to each lat. the perfect is one

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I agree with Maplecrest, the perfect is one. At a seminar I was at this winter, the "strive for five" was mentioned and the presenter said that it appears four is better and three even better than that. I know every time I walk in my woods, I see lots of places to extend mainlines and shorten laterals. I would like to set up another bush but I think improvements on what I currently have in production will pay higher dividends.
Doug

[PATheron]

Doug- Thats what Im thinking too exactly. I just kind of wondered what the rest of you feel is the right length and tap load to strive for that makes sense financially. You go to the first tap on a lat and pull it and it sounds like it has radical vac and go to the last and its not even close. Thats whats bothering me. I think Im going to have to go through and just do what seems to make the most sense for that particular spot. If there is a bunch of long lats run a short piece of main up through them. Stuff like that. My stuff is to rights for the most part its just with a lot taps if you can improve a little across the board it adds up to a lot of money. Last year I had some stuff I jsut through together at the last minute to get them on line and I dont regret it one iota. I made some syrup I wouldnt have other wise now Ill go and make them right. I had probly 300 taps that didnt even have the main line on wire. Get to a point where you run out of time. The young stand will benefit the most from divying up the lats. Have too many on some of them for sure. Hey, keep improving thats the name of the game. Theron

[Russell Lampron]

That's my goal too. I am going to make all of the repairs and improvements that are needed in my old section of woods before I expand more. It makes sense to get the most out of what I have before I add more first.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I find the same thing, first tap has adequate vacuum, last just a bit. I blame sags mostly. I have been stretching some laterals tighter right now while the weather is warm in the hopes that will help. I know that falling branches and snow will mean it will need redoing again but at least this makes me feel like I am doing something.

[Uncle Tucker]

I have a small bush on vacuum. It was originally gravity with 10-20 taps per lat. I spent last summer bisecting it with main lines so I would end up with 4 taps per lat. I have a little piston pump that was giving me 26” all season long, and when I would check my taps I would have no less than 25” at the farthest tap. I think it is because I sized the lines corectly and the 4 taps per lat. The thing I noticed that others mentioned is if you pull the first tap on a line the air comes rushing in and, the last tap on a line has air sucking in slowly. When I put the vacuum gage on it would creep up to 25”, so I think the vacuum level stays the same but you lose CFMs, witch you don’t need at the tap hole any ways.
This is just my take on the “strive for five” rule.

P.S. boy dose vacuum increase sap yeald!!!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Why don't you guys that are thinking about nearly eliminating laterals buy up a bunch of the 1/2" 30p mainline that is on sale thru April 22 for $ 61.20 a roll and use it instead of lateral lines.

[sapman]

This is a little off topic, but have any of you compared different brands of spouts under vacuum? I had three brands in my woods this year, and Lapierre apparently has the largest inside diameter, as I could hear a much stronger sucking from them. These were the blue Ecolo-Spouts. I'd say Leader came in second, followed by CDL. I have no idea if this improves yield or not, or just sounds more impressive.

Tim

[PATheron]

Brandon- How much is that half inch? Is it a real special deal? I think those spout diameters are right on topic. Ive only used the cdl 5/16 and the clear quarter inch ones so I dont know to much about it. Theron

[PATheron]

Brandon- Is the 61$ a roll for a 500 foot roll must be? Theron

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Brandon,
I like the concept of some "super-sized" laterals but my problem with 1/2 inch is fittings for it. Wish there was a connection for 5/16 to it that didn't have to be cut into the line or allowed just one entrance in a place.

Wish there was a 1/2 by 1/2 by 5/16 T so we could male drop lines to go right in the half inch.

[jason grossman]

My woods averages 3.5 on a lateral and i keep the laterals under 75-90'. i have some with 5-6 and some with 1. I honestly believe that in my area 4-5 per lateral is the best most productive and cost effective way to go.

[GGervais]

Jason, How much syrup per tap are you averaging with your laterals that short? I've been trying for three years to shorten all of my lines but keep finding more work. Every bit i do seems to up my production though. Just curious how i compare.

[maplecrest]

i used 1/2 this year for long lats. and used 3/4 mulifittings. i spent some time shimming the saddles to get them to work. and the first place i went on leak checks was there. i had no leaks. to me the experment worked well. now to see how well it will hold up over time.it greatly improved the vac in that area because the 5/16 lines were so long.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

1/2" Leader 30p MAINLINE is on sale for $ 61.20 a 400' roll compared to $ 88 a couple of months ago. Sale is good thru 05/22.

Anyone tried putting a small hole in mainline and forcing a barbed 5/16" fitting into the hole with the hole being a little smaller than the fitting?? I know it might not work for vaccum, but a little silicon should seal it good. Just use a connector at the bottom of the drop line or lateral line and force it into the hole. I think there are clip on spout caps/cups available now, so a "T" with a cup or plug wouldn't be neccessary. I await some thoughts and debate on this.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Well we do it all the time with drip lines in sprinkler systems. smaller tubing and most drip line is 1/2" I think the size of the barbs needed for 5/16 might be restrictave in 1/2 so 3/4 would be better. You wouldnt put more than one in a section of pipe so your not restricting it more than one fitting in any area.
Silicone doesnt like to stick to other plastic like Poly so I wouldnt use it. It seams to turn milky white and peal back. Now as far as poking a hole and inserting a fitting it works best if you cut a small hole and push a fitting into it so there is a smooth hole as a sealing surface.
I have been following the check valve tap thread and Im sitting in my garage scrapping out all these oxygen generators and they have 5 vacuum check valves in them that fit 3/8 or 5/16 tubing and Im thinking I could put one on each lateral at the mainline to so as vacuum is released it wont transfer to the laterals just push into the mainline like a dripper in your garden
THANKS WVM another hair brained idea that just might work

[ennismaple]

I've got anywhere between 2 and 20 on my laterals but I'd say the average it 10 or slightly higher. This explains why I don't get as high a yield as some of you. When we set up out new bush I tried to keep it between 7 and 10. After vacuum washing them this year (my first because Dad always did it) I'll be making it 5 max on any new lines I put up. Tubing can pay for itself real fast with good vacuum to the tree!

[PATheron]

Ennis- Why did you come to that conclusion after washing them? Just becouse you were looking at the length and number physically or something about how the water was being transfered further out? My lats in my main bush are pretty much loaded right they just run a little long. Lots of them 100' Im thinking of splitting them all in half with new main. Im just wondering how big a difference in yield I will get. I dont truly understand the deal where you check right at the main and the vac is high right from the getgo and go to the end and it will creep up to a high reading but it takes a while. There is the high vac there but it sure doesnt sound the same. It makes you wonder if its worth the expense of all the additional main or not. Like I was saying though if you bring all the taps up across the board and you have a lot of taps that can be a lot of money. I keep going back to proctor and them getting 30 gallons of sap from a seven inch tree and mainly becouse its right off main line. Theron

[markcasper]

Theron, do you think the 7" tree has a long life expectancy?

[PATheron]

Mark- I have mixed feelings about that. Proctor did that study with the intention of removing the tree which they did. I think if a small tree is in the open without competition and is tapped with a small hole it heals right up. Ive found that in my cull tree stand. I actually used quarter inch taps in that stand this year and Im going to be watching them. Only thing is is using the tree up. I heard that the distibuters of the quarter inch spiles claim you could tap an 8 inch tree for thirty years with their spile before you had gone all the way around it. By then your in new wood. That being said I dont tap small trees off my property. I dont mind it in the cull tree stand but on someone elses ground they dont know anything about that type of thing and theyre just going to think your tapping small trees and I wouldnt want that. I really am no expert on it. I just try to do what I think is right. Other thing proctor says is the hole is far more damaging than any amount of sap you can get. Who knows. I think the competition thing is huge. Those culls that are right under a bigger tree dont heal good but if they are a bit away they heal right up like nothing. Theron

[PATheron]

Mark- I wasnt really advoctating tapping small trees when I was talking about getting 30 gallons per tap of sap and I dont want, especially new guys, to think Im saying thats ok. What I was getting at was with Proctor getting 30 gallons of sap per tap the way they did it on a 7" tree just think what a real tree will do. Theron

[markcasper]

Theron,

I attended the tubing seminar yesterday with Brad Gillian from Leader. All I can say is that I am in shock!! I found that there is precise ways to do EVERYTHING setting up and maintaining a vacuum system. In fact, I cannot sleep even though I have been up for 36 hours thinking and stewing about this.

Have you been to a Leader sponsored tubing seminar? There were many wonderful things learned and eye openers for me. I found out all of my wire ties were put on the wrong way. No longer do you wrap the mainline wire around the end tree with wood shakes, you just screw in a lag bolt thingy.

CFM's don't seem to matter anymore, since 5/16th's can't carry cfms if the line has sap in it. All that matters is the vacuum gauge at the last tree.

Rather than stringing a mainline down the middle and having lats. come off each side, you now set it up to run ALL lats one way and to one specified mainline, hence leaving a clear unobstructed path for tubing leak inspection, tapping and cleanup. Even if the tree is 8 ft on the opposite side of the wrong mainline, you send out its own individual line instead, just so you don't have obstructions when working the area. Also found out never to try and reuse your old, or in my case, mistake type fittings. Did you know that pumping water through the system to clean is the not-so-in thing anymore? Rather it should be sucked and pulled through with your vacuum.

Theres been alot of talk about running 1/2'' mainline and scrapping 5/16 all together. Brad said that is a misconception as CFM's are not looked at as being nearly inmportant as what they once were. Reason???....he said if the 5/16's line has a complete column of sap, and most of them do, then CFM beyond that solid sap colum is useless.The 5 per lat. and less than 100 ft in length is still important, as that seems to be the law of diminishing returns.

His talk on tree pressure (external) and your vacuum was extremely beneficial. It was nice for a change to go somewhere and not have it crammed down your throat......do this, and buy that, and you should make 1/2 gallon per tap. It was nice to get to the real meat and bones of what is working, what is not and why.

I experienced the new "check valve" Leader adaptors, picked up a smaple and am fully convinced! I do think its more than just another sales pitch. I will definately be trying some out!
Found out that black plastic painted white is junk, but sometimes you don't have the $$$$$ to buy the fancy stuff.

It was an fabulous day meeting up with a few other Traders. The one thing I observed is that this is no different from the feed man or the seed man. Just as they encourage "overproduction", the resultant product will be lower priced when it gets your turn if there is more supply than demand. I heard it speculated by many attendees about what will happen to the price of syrup b/c of these new check ball adaptors. Just some stuff to chew on.

[PATheron]

Mark- Holy cow! Technoloby keeps marching foreward. A lot of those ideas are ones Ive heard of and thought about too. If still comes down to one thing, money. All of the efficiency ideas are expensive but if you double your production you need far less taps, on and on. Thats what keeps this stuff fun. Its a big challange. I do like the idea of getting more with less damage to the trees and this stuff is all about that. Im pretty sure Im going to cut my lats in half again. That is what makes the most sense in my personal setup. I have part of my main bush that had large concentrations of taps that run regularly 100' with up to ten taps on them and I think Ill make them 50' with up to 5 max. Be easy to do and fun to see what happens. Always more to do. Theron

[Russell Lampron]

The idea of running all of the laterals down to the mainline and putting them on one side makes sense. Glen Goodrich was saying to do that when I went to my first tubing seminar 8 years ago. Run your lateral mains across the face of the slope and have your conductor lines run up and down.

I have been using lag hooks in my end trees for as long as I have been using tubing. Clothesline hooks work great for this. I feel that the hooks do less damage to the tree than pieces of wood that will rot and grow into the tree if you don't relieve the tension and move or replace them every year.

The new check valve adapters look like they will work good and do what they are intended to. I still have some new Lapierre adapters that I have to use up before I go with the new ones 100%. I plan to buy 100 of them and I have a section of my woods with 100 taps so that I can see how they perform.

Of course the new innovations come with a price. Bulk syrup prices will suffer unless the demand increases enough to offset the increased production. Hopefully retail prices won't drop too much but they usually do.

[ennismaple]

Theron - After vacuum washing my lines it was very obvious that the further you get from the mainline and the more taps that are on each lateral the lower the vacuum gets.

[markcasper]

Ennis, As was talked about at the seminar. You have lowered CFM's farther out on longer laterals. As soon as that end was plugged however, the vacuum most likely returned to the rate that it is at the mainline entrance.

I have noticed this in my operation. The reason it ''sounds" softer is b/c of lowered CFM. At least thats the way an expert explained it.