zero tanks

[PATheron]

You guys that have played with these things, how much vac will they take. Theron

[PETE FELCH]

I my self wouldnt use one . For one thing you cant tell what is in it when the vacuum is on . And the biggest reason we found is the sap gets really warm inside the tank!

[Uncle Tucker]

Theeeeee(whys my sap boiling in my holding tank)ron,
I herd they make the sap really hot. However, you don’t have to get a releaser.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I know 2 guys and thats all they use and the tanks sit out in the sun all day and their syrup looks and tastes as good as mine and I dont use any. All Zero tanks are not Vacuum tanks so make sure what your getting. The differance between 15HGs and going for 25HGs will crush alot of tanks. I did it.
Im curious whats the differance vacuuming sap into a releaser and dumping into a insulated SS dairy tank or vacuuming into a insulated SS dairy tank? If the sap enters the tank at the top and fills the tank and is not agitated other than flowing into the tank what is the reason for it becoming hot? I would think a closed system would be better than my system of vacuum into a releaser and then dumping into a open tank and sitting with it 50% uninsulated with open air bringing in dirt and bacteria MMMMMMMMMMMM

[PATheron]

Will they take 18" tp 20" of vac?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Theron,
I don't have any direct experience but I think the 18 to 20 inches is realistic. Ennis Maple uses several and I think he is running them that high. They are difficult to come by up this way. I have been looking for a couple of years with no luck.
Doug

[Haynes Forest Products]

When and if you find a tank if its a Zero tank look at the very top of the end oposite the drain and see if it says Vacuum tank. I got a tank from a dairy supply and it was a dandy made by Zero and all went well for the first weel then I cranked the regulator down and had frozen main lines and crushed the tank into scrap. Thats when I saw in little letters NON VACUUM so slight you had to look real hard to see it. There are other manuf. of vac tanks DeLaval made one.

[PATheron]

Haynes- Im not sure this is a zero I just called it that becouse thats what Ive heard you guys refer to them as. This tank is a vac tank Id say becouse in the milkhouse the dairy pump suck pipe goes right to one manhole cover and two lines from the cows come to the other manhole cover. So Im thinking its a vac tank like you guys have talked about. Im not sure of the manufacturer, Ill look. Im no farmer, just like to drill holes in trees. Theron

[fred]

ray shenk 717-626-1151 in PA

over 100 used tanks in stock 150 - 6000 gal.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Threon Did you post a picture? most dairy tanks are vac but lower vac 15HGs . From your photos I think you like to do more than just drill holes nice set up. I wish I could post the pics of a low vac tank after high vac is applied. I sucked it in with a 1/4 Gast pump it looked like a pop can you bent in 1/2. It worked great at higher vac levels its just when it didnt have sap and air flowing in that it poped.

[KenWP]

Since I have only milked cows with a realeaser I can't help much. Went from a sursingle tank to a realeaser system. Most tanks are made to not burst outwards not to keep them from colapsing inwards.

[DS Maple]

I have the same question. We have a 1000 gallon Zero tank installed and ran a pretty constant 20" in it this year. One night when the system had frozen and I saw the guage at 25", but got worried, shut the pump down and let some air in right away. I really want a concrete figure from the manufacturer stating the pressure they are comfortably rated at. Our tank took that 25" without damage, but I question whether it would do it for an extended period of time.

I had heard the rumor of sap getting warm in them, but didn't have that experience myself. It wasn't any warmer than the air temperature. Also, it is possible to see how much sap is in them. We put a T in the drain pipe and installed a sight tube. You just have to make sure that the top of the tube is tied back into the vacuum somehow so that the pressure is equalized. If you just put a tube on it and cap it it won't work. Also, you have to use the fancy syrup transfer hose because standard clear hose won't stand up to the pressure.

If anyone gets any good numbers on the tank though please share them. I really want to know how much I can push this thing.

[sapman]

On my Bascom trip I always see these tanks on bushes. I believe there's one on Rt. 7 just west of Wilmington, VT. Then going up the road to Bascom's, they have several. They should be able to tell you what they handle. I'd ask to speak with David or Bruce.

Tim

[maplecrest]

sunset tanks as i was told but by my bulk tank guy will not hold up to over 19 inches. zero tanks will hold high vac. if you are really concerned about freeze ups put a vac regulator on the tank with a valve to turn on and off before and after freeze ups. to release some of the vac.

[WMF]

You will never get a reliable answer as to how much vacuum these tanks can take. There are just too many different models. Some Zero's are no vac, some under 15" vac, and some will take full vac.

The Zero's with small dimples on the inside bottom half of the tank and a painted steel exterior will take more vacuum but your results may vary.

They also will heat your sap. It's a phase change thermal freeing up of heat when vapor condenses that happens to all tanks under vacuum but is more pronounced with big tanks.

I would only use a vacuum tank as a last resort or until I could get a releaser.

[markct]

why a vac tanl as a last resort you say? seems to me like a much simpler and possibly cheaper solution than a releaser?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im with Markct Why as a last resort I and many others think of it as a first resort and a good one. I have never heard anyone complain about bad sap in good clean vac tanks. I have 2 releasers and I love the way they work BUT they seem to agitate the sap alot more than a vac tank does. Holds it in a small vessal under vacuum and then splashes it into a open tank.

[WMF]

On an average year the quality of sap out of a vacuum tank will be worse than out of an open tank no matter how many times you clean it. It took a few seasons for me to realize this .

What really made me start to question the vacuum tanks was when I would go to shut of the pump for the night and would release the vacuum and take one of the lids off and on a calm night steam would rise out of the tank into the cool air for as long as I wanted to stand there.

By the way I have a 1000 gallon Zero with seals and lids I would sell for the right price or trade for a larger stainless tank.

[Haynes Forest Products]

WMF was it steam or condensation? I would like to know what temp the sap was. I would say that at the end of the day as it cools down quick and the sap is running into the tank at 40 and the air is down to 28.

[DS Maple]

I always looked at it such that a vacuum tank eliminated the complication of a releaser. No moving parts to break, nothing to freeze, etc. Also, vacuum tanks act as large vacuum reservoirs, so if for some reason the pump shuts off, the negative pressure won't be lost nearly as fast.

Sap quality for us this year was pretty much equal all the way around. The sap in the zero tank had one or two tenths of a percent less sugar than that from the gravity lines, but I expect a slight drop in sugar on any vac system. The only slight mechanical issue that came up was when it came time to pump the tank under pressure. The transfer pump (2" pacer) couldn't overcome vacuum greater than 20". This wasn't a big deal though. Just crack one of the cleanout valves, drop the pressure few inches, pump the tank and let the pressure recover after.

[WMF]

Haynes, The sap temp was high, higher than it should be which is why sap will not keep as good.

DS , I agree it does make for a very simple reliable system. Make sure you have check valves on your lines so you don't get backflow up your mains when the vacuum is released, that is another story for another day.

[markcasper]

Mr. Haynes,

One of the main reasons the sap is warmer going into a vacuum tank is the tank is taking all of that air in from the tree in the form of a gas. The trees do release gas with the sap. The gas is often much warmer than the ambient air temperature and that explains why on a bucket system the sap will still be dripping at times, even if the air temp. is down to 26-28 degrees.

I say if you like it then keep using it that way. If not, then a releaser and open tank is the other option.

There are several producers that I know that have ditched vacuum tanks for a releaser.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I understand and I agree..............to a point. I can only speak from my own experiances and the others that I spend time with. I have a Vacuum system thru releasers into open tanks I collect sap from my tanks about 4 time a day I do not allow my sap to sit very long before its cooked. I think "WE" here on this site tend to forget how we started and the fun we had in the exploration and experimentation of the syrup prosess. I think we are becoming absolutist in our approch.
I have no vested intrest if someone uses a vacuum tank or not. Has procter done a study using the model of 300 taps on vacuum into a dairy tank at 18HGs vac being collected 3 times a day in used galvanized milk cans and evaporated within 4 hrs of collection using a 2 X 6 SS solderd pans, wood fired, no steam hood gravity filterd thru a brand new Fruit of the loom t shirt bottled at 170 degrees in old catsup containers (squeeze type) stored in the garage for 3 years and given out to friends and family and they all agreed that it was the best syrup in the world and will you sell them some more?
I just think we need to remember how we got here and how discouraging it can be to hear not attempt the things we all did and learned from.

[KenWP]

Haynes is right. I find that there is too much of (You have to do it that way) kind of things. I myself find somethings impractical or not possible or I wouldn't do that even if they made a law saying you had to. I made syrup my own way this year and I will grant you it was a lot of work and I was glad when it came to a end but I will be out there next year doing it again with a bit of fine tuneing and changes some I pick up here in the forum and the rest my own inventions.

[markcasper]

I understand and I agree..............to a point. I can only speak from my own experiances and the others that I spend time with. I have a Vacuum system thru realeasers into open tanks I collect sap from my tanks about 4 time a day I do not allow my sap to sit very long before its cooked. I think "WE" here on this site tend to forget how we started and the fun we had in the exploration and experimentation of the syrup prosess. I think we are becoming absolutist in our approch.
I have no vested intrest if someone uses a vacuum tank or not. Has procter done a study using the model of a 300 taps on vacuum into a dairy tank at 18HGs vac being collected 3 times a day in used galvanized milk cans and evaporated within 4 hrs of collection using a 2 X 6 SS solderd pans, wood fired, no steam hood gravity filterd thru a brand new Fruit of the loom t shirt bottled at 170 degrees in old catsup containers (squeeze type) stored in the garage for 3 years and given out to friends and family and they all agreed that it was the best syrup in the world and will you sell them some more?
I just think we need to remember how we got here and how discouraging it can be to hear not attempt the things we all did and learned from.

3/4 of the above has nothing to do with the topic here.

[ennismaple]

Will they take 18" tp 20" of vac?

Yes - that's what we run ours at.

The sap is warm because it comes out of the lines warm. In an open top tank the sap gets to cool off but Zero's keep the heat in because they're completely enclosed. If you can keep them out of the sun in an enclosure it helps because the tank isn't being warmed by the sun but our open top tank produces clearer sap than the Zeros. I do agree that it's easier to keep the open top tank clean and because it's easier you do it more often and do a better job than bending over in half through the top of a Zero to mop it out!

I'm not knocking Zeros either - they are a great way to start out and we'll always have one or two even if we make all the "improvements" we have planned. You can buy a Zero tank for $1 per gallon and a used SP22 pump and be on vacuum for a lot less investment than spending BIG bucks on a flood oil or liquid ring pump plus open top tank plus releaser.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Markcasper I agree that 3/4 of my reply wasnt about about what PATheron asked. I guess it just strikes a cord in me when someone askes a question and we all pig pile on and before long we forget what the question was. If all we do is tell someone dont do it because I did it for 3 years and now I moved up to bigger better equipment and Im telling you dont do it.
I think I learned more about Maple syrup production doing it in the back woods with like minded friends/idiots (my words) without help than I ever did having someone with all new shiney equipment and barrels stacked floor to ceiling telling me not to do something even though thats how they started

[PATheron]

You guys are pretty funny to listen to but a wealth of information thats for sure. Ive made syrup my whole life with no money till two years ago and I would say it was just as much fun as what im doing now. Thats the fun thing of syruping, everyone can afford to have fun at it at any level. I never new you could use a dairy pump till I got on here. I think the zero tank is a pretty cool idea and I bet it does warm the sap but, hey, if a guy can do it on the cheap and he cant afford the latest and greatest its a darn good idea. I might do it myself to save some money. If I do something like that and its cheap and I cant afford to do it with new stuff its syrup I wouldnt have other wise. I have a lot of problems with releasers freezing up. Thats going to be the next project. Darn releaser freezes up the whole bush is down. That stinks. Theron

[maplecrest]

my two cents on the matter. theron and myself would not even think of vac tanks if were not for high vac levels and frozen releasers. now before you guys start in about the leaks in the woods freezing the releaser. my next comment will be my trip to lapierre two weeks ago. there they had a row of releasers running. so i watched them for 15 minutes. well soon 2 were hung up. 60 degrees mind you. so i waited in line and talked to matt and asked why the releasers were hung up. he walked over and reset them. we stood there chatting about releasers and freezing and high vac levels. the whole time he walked the row resetting releasers. now 60 degrees 26 inches of vac and having to reset releasers by hand. hhhmmm. sounds like my season 31 degrees out sap running like crazy and hung up releasers. mine leaked where the float stem went thru to trip the machincal piston. would ice up on the stem . i double o-ringed it and turned the screw all the way to the top for thr float that helped. but i used vac tanks in the past and had good luck. the companies are not on the ball with the releasers for high vaclevels. the other option is to put a pump inside the releaser that runs on a float. but that will freeze also. i heat taped my releasers also. but hihg vac and leaky releasers spell ICE

[maple flats]

Vac makes freezing at higher temps possible. Just think to when you put a beer in the freezer to get cold and left it a little too long. It was liquid til you opened it. Closed it is under pressure, (liquid), pop the cap to take a much needed swallow and it freezes up as the pressure drops. Putting vac on the system aids in freezing up.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I think there is a gas called CO2 that when the pressure is released it causes the freeze up just like a CO2 fire ext. I would think the cold sap and freezing air all being agitated as it flys down the main line as night falls and temps drop make things slushy and then freeze just like snot on the face on the 4 wheeler at dusk running down the road at 65 MPH.

[ennismaple]

The nice thing about buying a used Zero tank is it won't lose value. If you take care of it you can get the same amount (or possibly more) re-selling it 5 or 10 years later.

[3rdgen.maple]

Okay guys this zero tank thing sounds right up my ally. I have no knowledge of how one is setup. Can someone please explain in detail or post some pics?

I'm a bucket guy looking for vac. next season.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Its as simple as pie. Just dont do all the things I did. Look at it as a big moisture trap between the vacuum pump and the trees. depending on the type cover or covers and plumbing you need to make it as airtight as possible. most times ratchet straps work good to hold covers down to get a good seal. try and use the ports in the tank (not the covers)for your mainline inlet and vacuum. Install ball valve to release vac during sap draw down. Do not bring the sap in the drain port.
If your going to use the tank as a transport bulk tank use quick disconnects and drop mainline in a tank for gravity collection during tank hauling. For 300 plus expansion depending on your vac pump 1" vac line to the pump is fine. Use a regulator between the pump and tank. Depending on number of mainlines coming in will determine how you build your manifold. I would use the drain port for your transfer to sap hauler use a Quick connect for quick hookup and pump.
What I did wrong first time I used one....... First 3 days had a fancy smancy manifold on the drain port as my inlet. Vacuum had to pull thru the sap in the tank to transfer out into the mainline (I think) incoming air/gas airated the sap. Screwed the vac guage down a crushed the tank.

[brookledge]

Haynes pretty much sumed it up. I used rachet straps also to keep a good seal on the lids. On the outlet on the bottom I put a fitting in before the valve that has clear plastic tubing that conects back into the top that gives me a site tube to know how much is in the tank. The other thing that I did was use bulkhead fittings in the covers where there was no threads. At first I was wondering how I was going to seal those holes that had no threads. Well screw a bulkhead fitting in an it works great.
I bring the sap in on the top and also on the other end of the top is the line that goes to the vac pump. I have a moisture trap in line between the pump and the tank. That way if the tank should fill full the sap will shut off the vac once it gets into the trap.
Keith

[3rdgen.maple]

Thanks, sounds like a simple easy setup. I like the idea of using that tank for sap transfer also. Park it on a trailer and haul it to the sugarhouse drain and start over. Or could one just bury the tank leave the top half exsposed. Just wondering seems like it would keep the sap cooler.

[Haynes Forest Products]

The only problem I see with burying them is your drain ends below ground and then cleaning is a pain. I would like to lower my tanks for slope reasons but its the drain. Now you could dig a pit around the drain and fill with rock for drainage. Cleaning is a big part of the prosess so letting in 10 gallons of sap toss in some cleaner and brush clean and then rince is easy with a bottom drain

[ennismaple]

Okay guys this zero tank thing sounds right up my ally. I have no knowledge of how one is setup. Can someone please explain in detail or post some pics?

I'm a bucket guy looking for vac. next season.

Check out my photobucket account - I've got some pics of ours. You connect one of the fittings on top to the vacuum pump, the other to the sap line and you're on vacuum!

[DS Maple]

Here are a couple additional pictures. These were taken in the fall though, so the complete setup isn't shown. The sap line connection is probably the most complicated and that is what you're looking at. Only the vac line and sight tube are missing, but they are pretty simple and easy to figure out.

[ennismaple]

Did the rubber gasket for the lid not come with the tank? We've got 2 different sizes for our tanks but there's no need to strap lids down!

[3rdgen.maple]

Man the MapleTrader is awesome. Thanks guys for all the info. Next question were do you find the tanks?

[Haynes Forest Products]

3rdgen.maple Now the fun starts you must become a detective and start asking around and becoming a pain in the *%& Start by calling the local dairy supply/repair guy if and when you meet this person he will become key to all your wants needs. He will send you on adventures and wild goose chases but in the end you will get leads to all sorts of equipment. Tread gently with the farming community they love to help but dont like pushy CITY folk when it comes to opening their barn doors Remember its the inside of the tank that matters. you are entering a dangerous world if you start this journey And my last bit of wisdom is things happen in threes you will end up with things you never thought you could use. ENJOY GRASSHOPPER

[DS Maple]

The gasket didn't come with the tank. It's actually just a piece of weatherstripping stuff found at a hardware store. It comes in a roll and has adhesive on the back. The tank won't seal without it in place so it does make a difference. Over the course of a season the vac pressure pulling the lid against it does squish it a bit, so this year I replaced it once. That takes about a minute to do and makes a big difference.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

3rf gen,
There is a zero tank on e-bay currently. 800 gallon I think. Don't know if it is vacuum style or not. Think it is in M0 or something so you would need to travel to get it. I think the price was still cheap

[3rdgen.maple]

Thanks guys. Haynes who you calling CITY folk I live in the country, grandparents were farmers, I have about 175 acres of land, five dogs and alot of stray cats running around. Doesn't that qualify as a COUNTRY folk?LOL. I gotta post some pics of some vac pumps I have gotten to see what you guys think and any advise on them.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I is city folk and I will tell you I get plenty of questions running around Wisconsin with Colorado plates on my truck buying maple syrup equipment and anything that is shiney. Maybe its my wife with that funny sounding Michigan accent. I STAND CORRECTED

[3rdgen.maple]

I know what you mean about farmers not liking city folk. I live on the Salmon river and during the salmon season it is more common to see plates from every state and canada. And all the locals complain about them. Funny thing is without the fisherman we would not have any money in this town.

[Haynes Forest Products]

3rdGen.Maple I have been coming to Wisconsin since my parents started camping in 1950 and bought swamp land on Lake Michigan and I got my first 10 acres for the cabin in 72 then 3 more for the sugar house in 89 I still cant get a instate hunting or fishing license.
I will say that when you do get yourself into the loop and you make contact with a few "Farmers" and they send you over to a friend to look at the tank or pump that sitting out back your on your way. If you take the time to listen and spend time getting to know them you will have a life long friend.
This year my first 25 gallons went to all the people that helped me get the last 25 gallons made. When someone asked me what the best thing a case of syrup got me.............the only answer seems to be a FRIEND.

[3rdgen.maple]

Good advice Haynes Good advice. I don't know about wisconsin but I know a few people from another state that have a post office box in town and get a monthly magazine sent to it so they can show proof of residence in ny and get a fishing license. On another note I am looking forward to a vac setup for next year. 3 generations of buckets and I gonna make a change. Maybe not all taps on buckets but .......................... what the heck gonna hang all the buckets and add vac too, got plenty of maples. When does the madness end?

[NH Maplemaker]

IN THE LONG SKINNY BOX, I think. Jim L.

[Haynes Forest Products]

With all the Pancakes I eat that box ain't so long and skinny anymore.

[3rdgen.maple]

I think my long skinny box will be made out of MAPLE. And even then Im taking the madness and passing it down.

[Russell Lampron]

No long skinny box for me. I'm going to be in an urn until I get spread through my sugar orchard.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I can see alot of wives mesuring the arch door to see if we will fit. Just what is the BTU rating of a 5' 8" 210lb male fully clothed who just ate at the Waffel House:o:rolleyes:

[KenWP]

I have roasted many 210 pounders and it takes about 50 bucks of fuel to do it. Depending on the fat around the middle.

[Like Minded Farmer]

Lots of good info here but still more questions. I'm considering this setup for a bush that is way down back and I like the idea of no moving parts/releasers since I can't be there to keep an eye on it. I wonder about the sap getting warm and vapor coming out when the lid is removed. Someone mentioned the sap was dark and someone else said the syrup was good and I wonder if anyone ended up checking the temp and sugar content of the sap. Being under vacuum lowers the boiling point of liquids so could it be that there is a small amount of evaporation taking place inside the vac tank? If so it may explain the dark color and the steam. I'm all for getting the sugar up a point. I don't understand the warming part though. Usually compressing makes heat so it should be cooler for vacuum, kind of like when these releasers freeze due to an air leak.

[brookledge]

I have a 400 gal zero that I used as a vacuum tank for years until this year. I went to high vac and didn't want to implode it. Any ways when the air moving in the mainlines warm up they enter the tank and tend to heat the tank more than if it was not under vac. Basicly air in the mainline especially if it is black heats up easier and faster than the sap does. It is not going to heat up drasticly but when sap is even 5 degrees warmer it will degade faster. A lot would depend on how often you pump it out. I never saw it as a major problem especially if by using it gets you more sap then I feel the trade off is well worth it
Keith

[Like Minded Farmer]

I have never used vacuum or checked out a working system so was not aware that it warms the air inside the lines. Things that make you go Huh!

Do people generally try to use lighter colors when using vacuum?

Thanks
Tony

[maple flats]

I use one and like it. I have a 1000 gal one. It sets out of the sun and about 95% of my tubing is lt blue, 5% black. The black only runs on a shady roadside. The sap seems to be good on this. You can see the level with the vac on if you do it right. Coming off the bottom valve run your pump line with a valve to close the system after the pump. In fact one before and after so the pump can be put in place with vac running. Then have a small tube go from after the pump but before the valve, 5/16" will do, run it up to your dry line or a fitting on top of the tank. The level seen in the tube is sap level in the tank. Now you can also pump with vac on because the pump is in the vacuum environment. After starting the pump, open the discharge valve and pump the sap, the 5/16 flow will return to the tank but you will still pump with good speed, you will not notice any drop in discharge flow.
If you think heating will be a real issue for you, make your tubing any color but black, but white might be best. I like 30P blue. Another thing you can do is get a shade cloth, it is sold thru greenhouse suppliers. You can get any % shade up to 90%. I think the 80% is best because it gives good shade while allowing heat to vent thru the weave better than 90% shade. I use this on some storage tanks and collection barrels but don't need it on my Zero.
I run my vac between 20-21" with no issue. Some have imploded their tanks but I'm not sure at what vac level. Was it where the vac was regulated or was it because a vac controller froze and failed to do it's job.
If the Zero IS a VAC tank it will have been tested at 20" when new.