mega sap ladder

[Acer]

After last season I am done hauling sap. Every drop is coming to the house by pipe next season.
Looking to tap an area 1500' to 4000' from the sugarhouse.
Elevation change from house to bush (first 1500') is zero. 1500' to 400' section has 40' elevation change in the right direction. Potential back there is 5-10k red maple woods trees.

Lazy side of me is hoping a series of sap ladders will work, but am concerned about the cumulative pressure loss and hit to production. Also haven't heard of that many taps on a series of ladders before.

Anyone out there have experience to share on this one?

Dean

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Acer,
I moved sap about 1500 feet this year using an inverse slope pump from D&G. Sap came to a releaser and tank at the edge of the woods and then went through the pump and via a 1' line to another releaser about 1500 feet away. The sap had to travel up about 15 feet and then came back down to about the original level. I put the pump line on a wire to help prevent sags and make the sap move easier. Vacuum was transferred to the remote releaser via another 1 and 1/4 inch pipe. I had 25 inches at the pump and 24 at the remote releaser.
Another option might be one of the Lapierre vacuum operated pumps. There are a couple in the classified's right now. A hydrovac located at the edge of the woods is another viable option. I used one this year to move sap 1800 feet. The people from Airablo claim they can gear the pump to do about anything.
Doug

[Mark]

Find a rotating lazer level and see if you can make it with a shallow slope. I went with a 2/10 of 1 percent slope and it works good. 1 1/4" wet line and 2"
dry line on cable with lots of posts for no dips. Went 5000 feet without hardly any vacuum loss.

[Jeff E]

2/10 of 1%?

So about 2 1/2 inches in 100 feet of drop. You have super straight lines. Do you run into any problems with line contraction/expansion as the temps change?

[Acer]

Mark,
How many taps on that line?

D

[Mark]

The tubes are on 3/8" cable and I use winches that are used on semi trucks that take 4" wide straps. I weld flat bar to it so I can bolt it to a post. When it warms up I just tighten it a little bit. I have 3000 taps on that line.

[Mark]

I might be wrong on the percent slope, it is 4" per 100 feet drop. I use boosters that are at least 4 feet tall to keep the sap out of the air line. I have been using it for six years but might take part of it down because I am going to tap another 100 acres that is past it and lower and that would need to be pumped. Now it would make more sense to take some of the taps to the pump station but 1000 taps will stay on the shallow line. I already put in 3000' of buried electrical cable for a pump station. But check you elevation and you might be suprised. Think about all of your options because it is a bummer to start changing things around.

[Fran Keem II]

Mark, You put in 3000' of electrical cable for a pump!? Your voltage drop on that 3000' is going to greatly exceed 2% if your running 240VAC like I'm assuming. I'm guessing that your pump is going to be at least 5HP. The voltage drop charts for standard cable only go up to 500'. If your sending 240VAC that distance, your pump motor is going to draw a lot of amps and get very hot! It may not run at all. I'm assuming some things here but if your running a 5HP motor at 240VAC single phase lets say and your 500 feet away from your distribution center (power feed), you're going to require at least size OO cable to account for startup inrush for your motor. It sounds expensive but if you're going to run power to a remote location like that, the best way to handle it is to run power there at roadside voltage then kick it down with a transformer for your motor. That will require the right high voltage cable, a transformer, disconnect, and an enclosure to house it in where your pump is. Or just get a gasoline or diesel powered pump. If your going to run the system the way it sounds like, be prepared for trouble.

[maple flats]

Fran Keem II is right. For example, if you run just 20A the 3000' at 240V on 4/0 copper! you will loose 3.03%, changing to 250 kcmil again in copper the loss is still o2.57%. Changing the latter to Aluminum the loss is 4.23% or 10.164V lost. Now for price, I just put in 225' of kcmil at the sugarhouse. It ran almost $1000. If you step up the voltage to 600 and use 4/0 Al you are at the max 2% recommended voltage drop. Now you need to step the voltage back to 240. If the amp rating (must account for start up surge) is different, these numbers change. 20A is actually very low. If you have this set, have someone start the pump while you watch a meter on voltage. You will likely soon burn the motor up on low voltage and at the worst time, when the sap is flowing.

[Thad Blaisdell]

easist and simplist, What I did for 1900 taps was run a mile of 1" pipe to that location, put in a deep well pump. Added a generator, put in a float so that when tank is empty it shuts off the generator. Done, I put this in a 2100 gal tank and go over in the afternoon and send it home. Beats hauling sap any day of the week.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

VD= K x I x D / CM
K= 25.8 for copper or 42.4 for AL
I=amp
D=distance
VD on a single run should be over 3% or 5% total from service entrance to end

to find the CM of wire needed to run some thing is
CM=K x I x D / VD
example 25.8 x 15A x 150 / 120v x 3%
58050 / 3.6 = 16,125
CH9 table 8 = #8

Distance a wire size can run
D= CM x VD / K x I

if I'm off with anything please let me know

[noreast maple]

:confused::confused:You lost me with all them lettersand symbols:o:lol:

[Mark]

Mark, You put in 3000' of electrical cable for a pump!? Your voltage drop on that 3000' is going to greatly exceed 2% if your running 240VAC like I'm assuming. I'm guessing that your pump is going to be at least 5HP. The voltage drop charts for standard cable only go up to 500'. If your sending 240VAC that distance, your pump motor is going to draw a lot of amps and get very hot! It may not run at all. I'm assuming some things here but if your running a 5HP motor at 240VAC single phase lets say and your 500 feet away from your distribution center (power feed), you're going to require at least size OO cable to account for startup inrush for your motor. It sounds expensive but if you're going to run power to a remote location like that, the best way to handle it is to run power there at roadside voltage then kick it down with a transformer for your motor. That will require the right high voltage cable, a transformer, disconnect, and an enclosure to house it in where your pump is. Or just get a gasoline or diesel powered pump. If your going to run the system the way it sounds like, be prepared for trouble.

It was a little less than 3000, I buried 2800 feet of 4/0 aluminum cable and it has been working great. The cost of the cable was about $7,500.00 a few years ago. It was either that or a new generator at about the same cost but this was much better. The sap transfer lines are 2200 feet long, took a longer route for the wire to go down a logging trail so I would not dig up the tree roots.
I think the ohms are .1 ohms for a thousand feet.
So .3 ohms x 8 amps is a voltage drop of 2.4 volts and I know starting is higher.
I am pumping with a 1 1/2 hp Grundfos pump and pumping to the extractor at the sugarhouse. So I am pushing uphill 75 feet in elevation and then back downhill 30 feet in elevation to the sugarhouse extractor. I have watched the voltage back there and there is almost a zero drop even when the pump starts. Some pumps are rated down to 208 volts. This year I am putting in a second pump to handle extra taps.
When I started the project I figured if I had a large drop I would jump the voltage up to 480 and then back down to 240 to cut the current in half but I don't think it will be needed.
I put in cat 5 cable and run relays to operate the pumps, heater and a motorized valve to drain the transfer line before it freezes at night plus a video camera. There is a 2100 gallon tank to handle a little flow while the sap flow is stopping.
I ran a generator back there for a couple years and it was a pain to walk a half mile and down a steep hill in the middle of the night to shut down. I remember one night it warmed up and was getting heavy wet snow at 3 am. I had to walk back there with a flashlight to start the generator. Now all I have to do is flip a couple switches at the sugarhouse.

I am not running a vacuum pump back there, I have a couple 2" dry lines to transfer the vacuum to the mechanical extractor over the tank. I may have to add a third dry line, just have to see what happens this year.

[Sunday Rock Maple]

Mark,

We are taking similar walks now, really like what you've done with the cable, relays, and camera --- looks like we've got another project.........

[maple flats]

What I use to get voltage drop is an APP on my smart phone, by Navaile. Once downloaded, the calculator for voltage drop requires you to fill in phase, amps, voltage (supply at your box), distance (feet), wire size, Cu or Al. Just hit calculate and it gives 2 answers, exact and approx. My solar installer uses this and I got it after seeing him use it. The beauty of it is that you can quickly see how wire size affects voltage drop by changing the wire size larger or smaller and calculating again. For your application the % drop is not quite as important as the final voltage. You should monitor your voltage over several days and times of day. You will find that it is not constant, but keeps changing. Whatever the lowest reading is, that is the starting voltage to use in the calculation. Then run the formula and see what you need. You also need the surge amps required at start-up of the motor, that is your amps. If you cheat on either you risk failure. The voltage you need to end up with must be high enough to get the motor going, if it is starved for power it takes a toll on the motor. If you find a motor labeled 220 or 230 volts, it will run better than one labeled 240 in this case. A 230 gives you a 10 volt drop window if you start at 240 based on your readings determined as stated earlier. A higher voltage on a 220 or 230 labeled motor will be a bonus and not an issue.

[Mark]

What I use to get voltage drop is an APP on my smart phone, by Navaile. Once downloaded, the calculator for voltage drop requires you to fill in phase, amps, voltage (supply at your box), distance (feet), wire size, Cu or Al. Just hit calculate and it gives 2 answers, exact and approx. My solar installer uses this and I got it after seeing him use it. The beauty of it is that you can quickly see how wire size affects voltage drop by changing the wire size larger or smaller and calculating again. For your application the % drop is not quite as important as the final voltage. You should monitor your voltage over several days and times of day. You will find that it is not constant, but keeps changing. Whatever the lowest reading is, that is the starting voltage to use in the calculation. Then run the formula and see what you need. You also need the surge amps required at start-up of the motor, that is your amps. If you cheat on either you risk failure. The voltage you need to end up with must be high enough to get the motor going, if it is starved for power it takes a toll on the motor. If you find a motor labeled 220 or 230 volts, it will run better than one labeled 240 in this case. A 230 gives you a 10 volt drop window if you start at 240 based on your readings determined as stated earlier. A higher voltage on a 220 or 230 labeled motor will be a bonus and not an issue.
This thread was started three years ago, I think it has been four years using the wire and I have been watching the voltage over the years and it is going as planned. I have pumped hundreds of thousands of gallons of sap so far. I don't have an app but know ohms law.
I even brought other electrical items back there, plugged them in to see what would happen and it works better than calculated. I tried an electric heater just to load it up along with the pump and almost no drop while starting.
I have had the power company put a unit at the sugarhouse to monitor the voltage there for a week while sugaring. They usually want to put a small 7.5 kva transformer powering the building so there is less loss when there is no load but I had no problem getting them to put in a large 50 kva transformer 20 feet from the sugarhouse. They were concerned about my 20 hp vacuum pump but after they got to watch the Written Pole motor start they were surprised on the low starting current. My voltage does not fluctuate much at the sugarhouse, it would if I still had the small transformer. I have talked to several sugarmakers in different areas that are having voltage problems because of a small transformer feeding the sugarhouse. The power company is not happy when we load up the small rural lines.

[Jeff E]

Mark, can you give us some specifics on your line drain system? I have a pump run of 1200' and another of 500' that I have to drain at freeze up. Usually in the middle of making syrup.

I have been thinking about the remote solution to this for some time, with no expertise to find it!
Remote camera, and switch controlled valve sounds perfect.
My pumps are set to run on float switches, and have been very effective.

It also sounds like you are pumping into a vacuum system? to a 'extractor' or releaser? Is that correct? If so, I would be interested to know if you experience vac drop when the pump kicks in.

[Mark]

I picked a relay that uses very low amps because the cat 5 is only about 24 gauge. I use 120 volts but to be safer I am going to change over to 24 volts with 12 volt relays because of the voltage drop that far back in the woods. The motorized valve is similar to a drawoff valve and it drains back into the tank. Check out ebay for a 120 volt valve.

No vacuum drop when it is pumping, just looks like one of the other lines. The back tank pump switch is set so the back tank is never truly empty so there is never a vacuum leak. The pump is not big enough to flood the extractor at the sugarhouse. At night when I drain the line I do have to close the valve on the transfer line but leave it slightly cracked because I would then have a big leak. This way it eventually drains both ways and a small amount of air keeps it from getting a solid freeze anywhere. I have been thinking of putting another small valve on this end so I could better judge how much air I am leaking in. Hard to tell because it is so loud in the pump shack. It helps to push and pull on the transfer line.