New adapters

[PATheron]

Guys- I heard you guys talking about the new spout adapters that have the one way checkvalve in them. Will they work on my cdl 5/16 spiles? I was wondering becouse I need to order my new adapters for the year and thought I may try them just didnt know if they would only work on the stubbies? Theron

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Theron,
At this point, the adapters will only work on stubbies. Leader does not even have them for distribution yet. They say they will have them by fall. I am going to replace some old drop lines so am going to install them with the stubbies. Maybe you want to do that in your "dairy bush"?
Doug

[Snow Hill Farm]

I just spoke with Leader and confirmed this. 4-6 weeks before they get the prototype back, when everything is o.k. they will begin manufacturing and have them late summer/fall. They are guessing around 40 cents each. They will only work on the stubbies. I'm thinking of replacing all of my spouts with these because if the research on the new adapters is true the sap production goes way up. Proctor Maple Research got 45 gallons of sap per tap with them compared to 22-28 for other producet!

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

just wondering how much sap they will produce when they get sticky, dirty and all gummed up and stuck open or closed and you get nothing.

RICH

[maplecrest]

rich you are on to something there. i do wonder how long they will work before gumming up.when pulling taps at least 1 out of 10 is gummed up.

[Snow Hill Farm]

All I know is I have relied on Proctor Maple Research for a lot of advice over the years and they haven't steered me wrong yet. They are only interested in promoting and advancing maple production so I doubt they would conceal info such as gumming up or plugging. I have a request in to Tim Wilmot at PMR about when something will be published on these adaptors and will pass it along if I get it...

[maplecrest]

the numbers are great to get almost a gallon per tap. i did .6 this year to do .9 would be great. but i already bought my cdl adapters for next season

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

My question is this. I plan to replace about 1500 drops this year and will use the stubbies. For the first year, with a complete new drop, is there any benefit to the new adapter. I am unclear if proctor tested these prototypes on old stubbies and drops or if it was on an entirely new system. Anyone else get a clear picture of this?
Doug

[saphead]

Went to Bascoms today and grabbed a new "check valve" setup.They are the same physical size as the regular leader adapters with a check valve ball added to the ID barrel.The ball rolls back and forth in the barrel.When forward it seals the barrel, when back it comes to rest against tiny fingers that leave little slots open behind them.By the look of the total open surface area of the slots it's only designed for vacuum as the open slot surface area seems to be much smaller than the ID of a plain barrel.I'd like to see more surface area in the slots as their is plenty of room to make them longer.The ball travels about 3-4 times the length of the slots.Final version available in the fall.

[Russell Lampron]

Doug the adapters were used on an all new system. They tested them in the section of woods that Leader has been putting new tubing in every year for the on going sap yield test. If the test results are accurate they will make a big difference even with all new tubing.

The Lapierre 7/16" Stubbies will work with the new Leader adapter too. I know that they won't work with the 19/64" CDL/IPL spouts or any of the 5/16" spouts.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Thanks Russ, That is what I wanted to know. Guess I buy the new adapters from the get go.
When I was at D&G last week, I was told that Leader Had tried the adapters with their stubbies and they worked fine.

[Russell Lampron]

Doug I believe that just about any 7/16" spout will work with these adapters. I was using the Lapierre adapters with some old US Maple 7/16" spouts, not stubbies, and they worked fine. They fit good and tight and didn't leak. Those will all be gone next season though. I am replacing all of the drops and as much of the lateral tubing as needed to get my old section of woods to perform like my new section did this season.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Think of the time and money we could have saved and the syrup we could have made. I was just looking at some long lats I just put up in February. Might better have not even bothered and then just did it right when I had time. Guess I was caught up in the "keeping up with Theron" thing.:lol:

[Hurdhaven Farm]

Went to the open house at Goodrich's today and Leader was there passing out free sample of the new check valve spouts. Glenn talked about the spouts in one of the seminars and he said and then demonstrated that the new spouts will fit over a 5/16 spout, not just the stubby. So worth checking out with your spouts.

[Brian Ryther]

Steve, your post made me run to my basket of loose fittings I pull out of my pockets. I found that a 5/16 tap does not fit into the new check valve adptr. but.. the check valve adptr fits nicely into a $.11 leader spout extention. So you only need to purchase the check valve adptrs. once and purchase the less expensive spout extensions every year after. You will need to clean under vac, or pull the check valve adptors then clean with pressure and clean the check valves seperately. 1 gal per tap, I cant wait until next year.

[mountainvan]

What level of vacuum were they running at proctor? Do the stubbies plug into the cup style "t"? If these things are as good as they sound I would switch to them, not add any taps, and make more syrup? My average gal of syrup/tap is .33 for three years. Any idea what it would be with the new adaptors? It's always good to get educated.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Van,
Stubbies won't plug into cup style T. I'm going to replace about half my drop lines this year, go with stubbies and the adapters. I prefer the cup style T's but guess I'll switch for this. Bet we get a lot more complete result a year from now!

[PATheron]

You guys think these adapters will give a big increase in sap to someone like me that runs the pump nonstop? Other thing is your saying they wont go on the end of a 5/16 cdl spile right? Id want to be pretty sure it would be a big increase even with me running the pump all the time becouse it would be a pretty expensive thing every year at 400$ per thousand. Other thing I wonder about is this. Proctor gets super big results but they are just about running mainline to each tap. They showed high vac on a seven inch tree producing 30 gallons of sap in a year. Thats three quarters at 2% but impractacle to do in real life. I think this year Im going to focus soley on maximizing my entire bush. If these spouts make that much difference might as well get them but if the pump never shuts off whats the difference? Theron

[caseyssugarshack93]

i think if u leave ur vac on all the time then u dont have to worry cause the sap wont go backwords unless the vac is off or a big leak if im correct, but i dont really know theron, i know im going to try 3-400 of them and see how they work and if they make start makin them for the 5/16 tree savers and i like the results ill add more to the 5/16th.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I think that we all need to remember that these extraordinary results came on a year when there was a week of good sugaring weather at the end of the season. I think the adapter and the concept work but the results were accentuated by a year that showed their best potential. If there had been only a day or so of sap weather at the end of season, the additional syrup/tap would not have been nearly as great. I am not planning on a gallon/tap but if this technology gets me closer to the 1/2 gallon mark, I'll go for it. forty cents per tap is only 1/100 of a gallon of syrup plus a bit more for the additional labor.

[PATheron]

Doug- Thats what Im thinking too. Anything to make what you have more productive is the name of the game. I just ordered all my reducers for this year. Ill have to wait and see what they come out with for next year and maybe Ill get some if they will go on my cdl spouts. Theron

[Brian Ryther]

Stephen Chileds did his own experments last season with a sugar maker hear in Otsego county last season. He used 2000 check valves from a plastic company non related to maple. On those 2000 he did close to 1 gal per tap. On the other 11000 in his operation he did 1/3 gal per tap. The norm for this year in our area. Like the sugar maker said he lost $60K form not doing the rest of his taps with the check valves. Are they worth a try, you bet.

[sapman]

I just heard Steve tell that experience yesterday. Are you sure he got 2000 of the checks? I know he got some from US Plastics he said, but I thought he said that they replaced the drops on 2000, along with experimenting with the check valves. I could certainly be wrong. But I remember the bottom line was that they figured it would have cost around $30K (materials + time?) to make the same change to the whole bush, leaving a net of $30K.

Theron, I think the only times this would improve your system would be when something freezes up, preventing vacuum from getting to the taphole, which probably happens occasionally. Steve's research showed almost all contamination to take place in the drop.

Tim

[PerryW]

Just for the record...

When you make an improvement to make more sap, then you can only figure the value on the increased sap (not the value of increased syrup).

For example, if a $10,000 investment in new technology allows you to make $10,000 dollars of additional syrup... You still have not factored in the additional costs of processing that sap in to syrup (labor & fuel) . You may also need additional investments in evaporators, storage tanks, RO, steam-away, filter presses and may have to sell the additional syrup at the lower bulk rates.


Plus, I'm not sure I want moving parts in my saplines until the bugs are worked out.

[Russell Lampron]

Theron Sapman hit it on the head. When the tree is still warm enough for sap flow but the lateral or mainline freeze the vacuum that is built up in the tree will pull the sap back into the tap hole. It doesn't have to be very much sap to get bacteria into the tap hole and it can happen the first day that you tap! You can have 25" at the pump all night long and it won't stop that from happening.

The slight drop in vacuum when the releaser dumps can allow backwards flow as well as leaks in your system that allow the sap to move back and forth in the laterals.

On the other side of the coin what effect is getting the additional sap out of the tree going to do for it's overall health? Is it going to suck a small tree dry enough to kill it?

Another thing to look at was Proctor's claim that they got 1.09 gallons of syrup per tap. They would have had to get an average sugar content of 2% to do that. My average sugar content was 1.4% this year and most producers that I have talked to did about the same. Has Proctor got sweeter trees than the rest of us or are they just going by 44 gallons of sap per tap can make 1.09 gallons of syrup?

[KenWP]

But if it's average of a gallon of syrup per tree then you have to figure that some trees produce maybe two gallons and some trees produce a half gallon and so forth.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

One thing you have to remember about Proctor which I haven't seen pointed out is that a 10" or a 40" tree gets only one tap, regardless of the size unless something has changed there. Get a healthy 25" tree and put one tap in it and it will run like crazy.

[Mark]

I am going back to 1 tap per tree, I don't think the second one does much when you have enough vacuum, just one more hole in your tree.

[Homestead Maple]

If a lot of producers used the check valve adapter and got the kind of results that Proctor did making a gallon per tap, I wonder what will happen to syrup prices?

[brookledge]

Well first of all there are alot of producers who either have no vac or use buckets so it won't affect them. And I don't see everybody running out and converting to them all in one year so I don't think it will affect the syrup prices.
Mountainvan I use Lapierre stubbies with leader tees(without cup). The stubby spout seems to stay on better on the leader tee for me. I didn't like the leader reducer because it had no wings on it making it harder to remove from the tree
I probably will use the new adapter with all of my stubbies that I have.
Keith

[caseyssugarshack93]

a buddy of mine ran 1000 and i dont know what the numbers were but they must of worked pretty good cause he said hes going ot add 10 000 next year, we will see how they work im gunna try 3-400 and see how they work and go from there,

[Brent]

Just thing about this:

- sooner or later we're going to find technology makes us like the cod fishermen, there has to be a limit to how many times we can double what we take out of a tree before we kill it or weaken it.

- the big commercial guys will not let this pass by, they'll jump on it like a pack of .....

- the 40 million lb surplus in Quebec could triple or quadruple next year

- all of us who have right sized our set ups will find
- our tanks are too small
- our collection vehicles are too small
- our RO systems are too small
- our evaporators are too small
- the price and availability of canning containers will get screwed
- and the prices ?????

Hmmmm.

[WMF]

I wouldn't worry just yet about a spile changing the whole maple world. Don't overlook the fact that Proctor has been making upwards of .75 gallons per tap for years and this was a spectacular year in that area weather wise.

Theres lots of operations out there with junk tubing systems and old whipped dairy pumps that have never made a quart a tap and putting in one of these spiles wont fix that.

Leader's marketing team should get some sort of award as they certainly have stirred up lots of speculation and have done some good research along the way.

[halfast tapper]

Let's all not forget who really determines how much we make.... MOTHER NATURE! We might not get another good year like this for a while, who knows?

[Russell Lampron]

Those of us that got a sample spout and adapter with the paper that shows the test results only need to read the results carefully to find that they didn't actually get 1.09 gallons of syrup per tap. They based that number on the old "it takes 40 gallons of sap to make a gallon of syrup". They got most of their sap at the end of the season when the sugar content is typically lower. If most of that sap was around 1% not 2% that 1.09 gallons looks more like .75 gallons real fast. Not that .75 gallons is bad. It's a number that I can only dream of at this time. But if you spend a lot of $$ on these thinking that you are going to double your syrup per tap ratio you might be a little disappointed when you don't.

So far the amount of sap that is typically taken from a tree with high vacuum has had no harmful affect on the trees health. When you take twice as much sap is that going to be too much and start killing some of them? You may only want to use these new adapters on larger trees until the test of time shows that the trees will survive.

[maple flats]

Steve Childs (Cornell maple Specialist) experiments were on a 10 yr old tubing system and he got near 1 gal/tap. He tested a different check valve than Leaders but he did compare 10 yr tubing, 5 yr and new. He got similar results regardless of age and he seemed to say there was little difference with the adapters on tubing that had been cleaned and that which was not cleaned. Leader had 15,000 total prototype adapters out on several farms and most got 1 gal/tap with little difference. Each farm had only part of their bush get the new adapters to compare results. I have definately decided to add all new adapters to everything next year. I will bet they will be hard to get enough to meet demand. I already have 2, I got a free sample as did my wife at Bascoms Saturday. (598 plus all added taps to go). I will not have vac next year yet but hopefully the following year. Steve childs thinks they should work on gravity too because the tree is still going from + pressure to vac as the temp drops and the tree is then sucking sap into the taphole. He will be doing tests this coming year to begin getting the results for gravity. I plan to go with them and see. I see the cost as the difference of the adapter I used this year and the price of the check valve one, because I was already using adapters on all old taps and they cost $.15 ea., the new @ $.40 is 25 cents more for maybe radical improvements in production. I think even if it only adds 20% I still win.

[mountainvan]

Talked to a friend who has developed a new spile that may make the yearly adaptors obsolete, including the new leader adaptor. Look for the product to come out this summer from Maple Innovations.

[Mark]

If Maple Innovations is coming out with something better they should hurry before everyone orders the check valves.
Who are they and is it for real?
I am going to order 20,000 check valves this weekend.

[jason grossman]

Guys before you all get excited about check valves, let me tell you that i was the first to see the raw data at proctor (remember a very good year). just happened that i visited the morning the were crunching the numbers. i walked in just as the results were printing out. only one out of four tubing systems had check valves in them. so any comparison data is skewed badly. they also said that if leader wouldn't be pushing to get the new product out that they would run 3-4 more years before publishing there results!! so i guess it's buyer beware. to each his own. there will be no extra parts in my systems to gum up next year. also these spouts have been on the market before CDL had them out many years ago , very breifly???

[Mark]

also these spouts have been on the market before CDL had them out many years ago , very breifly???

What spout? sorry I don't understand.

[KenWP]

There is hardley any new ideas anymore just old ideas that never worked that somebody tries again a few years later or ideas that were not practicial with old style manufacturing etc.

[markcasper]

Its a good, logical idea. Anyone remember the "micro-spouts" a few years back? That was suppose to be the edge of a new syrup revolution and where are they today?

[PATheron]

This makes me wonder a little bit. Talked to cdl guys other day and they told me of a guy up there that did 8/10s on the new clear quarter inch spiles. I dont think he was lying so what does that tell you. Smaller hole, no checkvalve, almost a gallon per tap. Think the weather could have helped all the results? Show me a gallon per tap with those gizmos on a bad year Ill NEVER buy anything else. Theron

[NH Maplemaker]

Steve, your post made me run to my basket of loose fittings I pull out of my pockets. I found that a 5/16 tap does not fit into the new check valve adptr. but.. the check valve adptr fits nicely into a $.11 leader spout extention. So you only need to purchase the check valve adptrs. once and purchase the less expensive spout extensions every year after. You will need to clean under vac, or pull the check valve adptors then clean with pressure and clean the check valves seperately. 1 gal per tap, I cant wait until next year.

I think Brain has the right idea!! Use the leader spout extension and only replace them. Clean the new check valve every year with vacuum, a lot cheaper !! Jim L.

[mountainvan]

Maple innovations is a New york maple producer teamed up with a nanotechnology company. The new spile has patents in the USA and Canada and approval from the fda and epa. You all know how I ream my holes out every year, with this spile I won't have to. Plus it should last for years not one season. I will say I'm biased because the producer who came up with the concept is my friend and I'd like to see him do well with it.

[Mark]

If he has a patent he is covered so could you give me a hint how it works?

[powerdub]

One other thing I did not see mentioned here is the fact that new sputs run better than old ones. I think that has been pretty much established. So my question is, are they comparing new check valve adapters to new regular ones or cleaned ones or old ones? I admit my trees are not the ideal but quite the opposite. It looks like I am growing future telephone poles so my yields are not impressive but I am going to share my numbers anyway. I used to be happy with 1.5 gallons per tap and that was with vacuum. Since I have been replacing adapters every year my five year average is .26 gallons per tap. This is where russ's point comes in. It never fails about four weeks into the season, sometimes less the sugar drops off, but not the flow and then the sap quality just goes away. I hate to be a skeptic, but I don't see how those check valves can increase my yield to half gallon a tap but the proof will be in the pudding as they say and if some of you use them in real life and they work over a few consecutive years I will be a believer. Keep us posted, I am interested in real life results.

[jason grossman]

The guy theron was refering to was a gentleman in vermont using the micro spiles 1/4 inch. he has had check valves in spouts and also he developed valves to go in the middle of the drop (he doesn't like either). he runs his entire operation( can't recall how many thousand) on 1/2 hp vacuum at 28"!!! the pump runs non stop for three months!! variable drive unit! bottom line, a TIGHT! high vacuum system that runs more than it is off will do more for you!!

[PATheron]

Im going to do some tweeking to my lines this year. Im deliberately not putting another bush in becouse I want to do some finetuning. Ive got some ideas for the lines plus I think I want a bigger pump. If I can save up enough pennies Id like to come up with something for a pump that youd litterally have to get permission from PJM(Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Maryland Interchange) to fire it up so I dont shear the shafts off in their generating stations. Theee(wanna put the big suck on things)roooon!:lol:

[Russell Lampron]

Theron how much more suck do you need? Between you and Matt all of the ponds and swamps up here are practically dry now!

[PATheron]

Russ- I dont think Im getting the high vac all throughout the bush. Thats why I want to work on my lines. What Ive got isnt working bad but I think I can make it a lot better. Other thing is I might run a dry line over the hill and get another bush that way so I need a lot more cfm's. I hate the idea of seperate systems if I can keep them minimized I think Im better off. Theron

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Remember, there is an advantage to separate systems. If something goes wrong with one, the others continue to work.

[PATheron]

I know a lot of people think that these new adapters may flood the market with syrup. This is my thought on that. The only way that those adapters are going to really work their magic is if the rest of the system is all up to snuff bigtime for them to operate at their full potential. If you use them on gravity theres no hard force to operate them so once they get sticky and gummmy and no pump with lots of vac? Seems like they will fail easily to me in that application. Now the big guys do scare me with those things but this is the deal with them. Most of them up north, the way I understand it, dont even change out their spout every year. They clean them up etc, etc, and use them for like 5 years. 1000 of those spouts at 40 cents is 400$, 10,000 4 grand 100,000 400 grand. So to really up your averages you have to have everything done by the book with the tubing system and spend all the money on the spouts and then do it every year. Im just wondering how many producers will actually do that. Where I do think they could be huge is for a guy that runs a good system and has to run his vac on a gas engine. He has to stop the pump all the time and im sure lots of those times those lats arent solid. If I was that guy I would DEFINITELY think about it. If that pump never shuts off like mine I cant see how they could really help. Guess I just felt like typing this morning. Theron

[jason grossman]

theron, i have to agree with you. i am not sold on the spout adapters. i have all stainless any way, so i am not changing those out. but i wonder about how everyone says they are the greatest thing since sliced bread! does the ball acutally roll back and forth? did they have a camera on it all season in a clear see through spout to witness this?? only one year of data at proctor? i know others had some spouts but wasn't it a bumper year in those locations? i think i would only spend the money after 3-4 years of proven data and results. also i sure would like to see a video of the ball actually working, how fast does it shut off. it's not like the tree is a massive vacuum sink that will suck the skin off a grape! but sales are sales and sell as many as possible while the research is in your corner.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I tend to agree with Theron, The new adapters will make a difference but other existing technologies could make a bigger difference. What if everyone went to high vacuum? We would increase the amount of syrup produced by huge amounts. Technology will continue and some of us will choose to adopt it. Syrup production will increase and prices will decline if we do not increase the market for our product. The problem is that we choose to do things that help us on the individual level but may harm us on the level of the industry wide scale. On a personal level I will investigate new technologies with several questions in mind. Will the quality of my product suffer? What will the consumer think (It doesn't matter if what they think is wrong, they are the ones with the money)? Will it damage my trees and or land? Are there other things I can do that will give me better returns or are less intrusive? Do I personally feel it is a morally responsible alternative for myself, others and the planet?
For me, I will try the new adapters on a portion of my bush. I am one of the gas powered folks that Theron was talking about. I will use the adapters in conjunction with new drop lines and when they are installed, I will reduce the number of taps on my larger trees. I plan to use them for several years so I will know if any improvements are a result of the adapters or if it was only the new plastic to the tree.
Doug

[maplwrks]

Most of the big guys here in VT change spouts EVERY year. They feel it doesn't only take 1 more gallon of increase in production to pay for them. Don't think for a minute that some of these guys feel that the spout (check valve) will get them another gallon of increase per tap that they won't switch everything to them. I personally feel that they will be extinct, just like the micro spouts in 3 years or less.

[Russell Lampron]

From what I have heard Proctor wanted to do 3 to 4 years of research before publishing the results of the new adapter tests. Leader is the one that made them publish what they have gotten so far. I am sure Proctor will continue testing and after 3 or 4 years have a better idea of what the actual performance is. These could be the cats meow or just the latest micro spout.

I am going to buy 100 of them to try in a section of my woods. I am hoping that at the end of the season they will prove to be what they are talked up to be.

The tubing systems that they were testing them against weren't new systems. They are the systems that they are using in an on going study comparing the sap flow of a new tubing system with older ones to see when it is best to replace your tubing.

[Brent]

I havn't seen one of these new adaptors yet but I have been thinking of them for a couple years, I would have the sap leave the spout going upward, before making its way down the drop. This way the valve would always be swimming in sap and "should" never get sticky.

[Russell Lampron]

Brent you still want to put them in with a slight downward angle. If the tree starts to run before you have the vacuum on or before the lines thaw out it will still run on gravity and get the old sap away from the tap hole.

[Brent]

Russ I don't think having to lift the sap and inch or two would mean anything. I put a pressure guage on a stainless spout with a thread on the end and that got up to 22 PSI. There's a lot of pressure inside a tree. Just nick a tree or snap of a twig in season and watch it pee and it gets more believable. I was very skeptical of this demo before I did it myself. That same gauge also swings to about 8" vacuum at night. It's that 8" of vacuum that the suck air into the tree and that we want to stop with the check valve. If sticky balls become a problem ( hmmmm ) an intial upward flow of an inch would be little to no sacrafice to keep them trouble free.

Did Proctor report any problems ... I have not seen their report yet.

[KenWP]

I can see useing these adapters on gravity also. Then any sap that gets in the line stays there. Then if the tree happens to flow for even the few minutes a day they sometimes do anything that goes in the line stays there. If I could find out who would even sell such a thing up here I would use them on the few trees that are close enough for tubeing and also on my silver maples which have 3 taps on them going by tube to one container.

[sapman]

This is anecdotal evidence, and has been alluded to already, but Mike Parker told me he had 1000 of his 18000 taps on the new checks this year. At the end of the season those 1000 were still running a gal./day when the rest were down to only a pint, he said.

Tim

[caseyssugarshack93]

mike parker lives near me and he ran 1000 of them, as sapman said, and they were still running two or three days before leaders openhouse on gravity he was saying , hes adding 10 000 of them for next season,

[PerryW]

For small-time guys like me running 20 year old gravity tubing, these recent threads have made me gun shy about investing the time and money into a vacuum system and new pipeline. Now I find out I have to replace drops every few years and buy expensive check-valve spouts to take full advantage of the vacuum system!

I have not seen any significant decline in my sap output from my sugarbush over the past 20 years even though I do no maintenance other than an annual rinse with water hauled in a backpack sprayer and replacing broken lines & fittings. While I understand I could get a lot more sap by going vacuum; I can get also additional sap by stringing up free used tubing which I have scrounged over the years. Since everyone is switching to the rigid, the old flexible stuff is virtually free.

[Russell Lampron]

Perry if you are happy with what your system and trees are giving you stick with what you have got. If you want to maximize the output of your trees you need to put them on vacuum and go with the latest technology and techniques.

That will cost some money up front but the sap yields and syrup produced will pay for it in a short time. Usually in the first year or two even with low bulk syrup prices.

[markcasper]

Mike Parker must have been the guy that Gillian was talking about. He said people from the open house were scrambling over to his place to look and see and believe for themselves and aquire the faith in the new adaptors.

[Brent]

Thinking about these new adapters makes wonder if we really understand the flow in the trees.

I'm wondering if what we have been taking out of trees is what was in them all winter long. Above ground that is. The freezing/thawing cycle just moves it up and down. If we let enough air into the tree ( without a check valve ) all the sap withing reach of the vacuum of the taphole is drawn out. Then maybe the buddy sap is the real stuff starting up from the roots, totally different in sugar and flavour.

So taking that idea a bit further, if a tap hole starts to slow down ( dry up), without vacuum, what would happen if we tapped the same tree late in the season, about 20' above the first tap hole. Would we find a new bounty of high sugar sap up there ??

[maple flats]

I now change all adapters every year (just started last year) and I will try these on all my tubing. I have 600 taps and plan to add about 3-400 more. I will buy 1000 and even on gravity I think they will help. At a cost of $400 for the 1000 I will break even if they just give me 1 or 2 more good days for the season and everything after that is gain. Leader only did this testing for 1 season on 15000 taps spread among several producers, but Cornell tested a similar inline check valve on 10 year old tubing and got very good results too. The farmers who tested the Leader adapters ALL had good results. My guess is that gravity will show a bigger % improvement than vac although the results will not be as good total produced on vac. On gravity the tree also goes into suction mode upon temperature dropping below freezing and there is never a pump to combat it until the line freezes solid. I will eagerly invest the $400 to get a 1000 check ball adapters. I have 2 from Bascoms openhouse, one I picked up as a sample being handed out and one I found on the floor that was likely dropped. I just need 998 more so to speak.

[caseyssugarshack93]

How do these help on gravity ? or do they ?

[markcasper]

Gillian was saying that the sap we collect is running down. They did an experement and placed 4 buckets in a straight line vertically, about 2 feet apart using a ladder to get the upper 2. He explained how the top bucket way up in the air was running over, with less and lees sap the further down you went with the lower one having very little.

Much to my amazement he also stated that when it freezes the sap races for the branches and stays there. I always was told that the sap went back down to the roots, otherwise it would crack and bust the limbs and twigs.

[Brent]

Casey

This is the most scientific explanantion I have heard for a university study.
The movement of sap is controlled by cells that contain air up in the small twigs, smaller than your finger. When there is a cold night with a freeze the air sack contract and draw sap up the inner part of the sapwood that is not frozen. In the day the sacks get heated and expand and the flow is reversed.
What we collect is actually sap going down.

If you tack a stainless fitting that is shaped like spout on one end and threaded on the other to receive a pressure guage you can actually see the pressure on the sap hole cycle from up to 22 pressure in the day, to a vacuum of about 8" during a freezing night. Try it.

So with ordinary spouts, spiles, or vacuum fittings, at night the negative pressure suck air into the tree. A large area of the tree near the tap hole eventually loses a lot of the sap, replaced by air. Even trees on vacuum will suffer some loss, sucking out the air before the sap starts to flow well.

The check valves are to stop, or at least reduce the air entering through the tap hole during the night.

At least this is the theory and it seems to work.

[Mark]

I think that we will make a lot more syrup with the check valves, but most of the extra syrup will be made late in the season. I could see commercial almost worthless again and the price for all grades the same won't be seen again. It will be more important to try to keep your grade up. I am thinking of changing out all of my black mainline to lighter translucent to try to keep the grade up late in the season. The people burning oil might not even want to make comm if the oil prices go up, which it will. That is just my opinion.

[NH Maplemaker]

I guess I would like to know why they didn't put the check valve in the spout in stead of the adapter? Then all we would haft to change is the adapter every year , same as we do now! Jim L.

[Mark]

You can't wash the tubing with a tubing washer if you can't take if off so it is better in the adapter.

[NH Maplemaker]

Good point Mark!! We don't use a tubing washer so didn't think of it in that way.
One of the folks at Bascons told me that the crews didn't like the little fingers inside of the adapter! They said that when you had a bunch of the in your work pouch, stuff would get in the fingers and it was hard to get out and it really slowed you down!! Also they bend over very easily when pushing them on to the stubby ! I have noticed that as I have been showing them to people, fingers do want to do that if you don't go real easy. Jim L.,

[markcasper]

At the tubing seminar oon Saturday, Gillian advised only to use vacuum for flushing the lines. That would make the not putting the valve in the spout a non-issue.

[Mark]

I calculate that I have to walk over a hundred and ten miles to pull my spouts so would rather not carry a bucket around and would rather pump the cleaner. That reminds me, I better get back in the woods I have a few more weeks of pulling taps.

[Brent]

I have not seen one of these yet. What makes the check valve work. Is there a spring behind a ball or does it seat under gravity ??

Maybe we coudl work out a way to cut one off near the top of a spread and pump some fluid / preservative in when one is cut off and allow venting.

Anyone got a picture ?

[Uncle Tucker]

I guess I would like to know why they didn't put the check valve in the spout in stead of the adapter? Then all we would haft to change is the adapter every year , same as we do now! Jim L.


If you use vacuum to clean, then these would pay for them selves in 2 years. You would just need to get the cheep disposable spout adapters. http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=45&product%5Fid=15641&variant%5Fid=64049

[mountainvan]

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=31304&product%5Fid=31305

Just think if this technology was used for a spile. No bacteria in the hole. Tap in January the saps still flowing strong in April. Works with existing tubing setups and lasts for years, not just one. No moving parts to gum up. Tubing can be washed anyway you want. Boy would'nt that be great! Hint Hint Hint!

[KenWP]

At $3:57 a foot wouldn't take much to come out even. Maybe 10 gallons of syrup per tree. Even if you just used it for the drop lines and had spouts with it in them.

[caseyssugarshack93]

Brent, here are some pics there not the best,

[caseyssugarshack93]

heres one more

[Brent]

Thanks Casey.
so the check valve appears to be in the spout and made much like the US Plastics one. Leader may even be getting US Plastics to make it.

Looks like a diaphram style rather than the ball type I was expecting. I don't see that this one should cause any problems for tube cleaning whereas the on from US plastics has to get embedded in the tubing and could cause problems in cleaning.

[Russell Lampron]

Brent the black spot in the middle of the adapter is a check ball. What Nate's pictures don't show are the little fingers that hold the ball in place.

[KenWP]

I must have missed it but do they fit a 5/16 spout or do they fit a 7/16 spout. I used both sizes and I couldn't really make a choice as which was best as I had small ones that gave more then big ones. The blue 7/16 spouts were cheap as D&G had them for 10 cents .

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Ken,
They are made to work with the 7/16.

[caseyssugarshack93]

Guys if i shut my vac. pump off when the sap is frozen=How much frozen sap will be absorbed by the tree through the 5/16" drop??

[maple flats]

They will work with 7/16, either the old long type or the new stubby ones.

[220 maple]

Hey Traders,
What is the purpose of a drop line? I thought that its purpose was to get the sap away from the tap so it wouldn't be sucked back into the tree. Many moons ago leader made a spile that had two connection points, one to connect the drop to the other to vent with, however some producers would circle a tree by connecting the spiles together. I never seen it done but heard that people did that. Just image if the check valve was in the spout would we need drops anymore? Inquiring minds want to know?

Mark 220 Maple

[DS Maple]

If everything is frozen solid the tree shouldn't suck any sap back in. But, if things aren't frozen I've actually heard that a tree under negative pressure has the ability to suck up to a pint of sap back into itself. This is obivously bad for production as well as tree health.

[tuckermtn]

had an interesting conversation with Foot Stetson the other day- he and his family run 10,000 +/- taps in Lempster NH (he runs a RO, Thunderbolt and a steam evap and built the steam unit Bascom's uses) His take on the new adapters was to wait a year or two as he feels there are going to be some advances in plastic technology (films inside tubings) which will combat some of the bacteria contamination fears...not sure what he knows, but he has his ear pretty close to the industry - far closer than I do...could be something like mountainvan's tubing w/ antimicrobial lining

Another option- Could you build your drop w/ 30" of regular tubing- then on the tree end put Uncle Tuckers check valve- then put a 2" section of mountainvans' tubing - then go into a BME spout- that way you could sanitize your stainless tap each year and get check valve protection and anti-microbe protection (when talking with my biology teacher-wife about this she asked "how long would the anti-micro film last in the special tubing?" would definietly want to find out)

doing the math-

BME tap- 1.00 per tap
check valve bought in bulk- .70 per tap
anti mico tubing- .60 per tap (if you bought 100ft roll)

total- 2.30 per tap - replacement interval? lets say 10 years for entire set-up except for stainless taps- then you would need 1.30 for new valve + tubing

vs.

Leader 7/16 stubby tap .29
check valve extension- .40 per tap- replace each year-

10 years you would have 4.29 per tap...

this of course assumes the first hybrid system would work...

[mountainvan]

Don't worry about the tubing, yet, that may be on the way cheaper than us plastics. The spiles should be available in late summer/ fall. I read one this thread that someone got 1 gal/tap with buckets years ago. They probably used the pill in the taphole.

[maplecrest]

mountainvan, if you are talking about the thread that i wrote about my grandfather. putting out 500 buckets and making 500 gallons there was no pill. that came after in the next generation and i still see the damage from those fews years to this day where the trees did not heal. those trees that he tapped were planted pre civil war. he tapped those trees at there prime. 1910 thru the late 50's. to see the pictures of those trees in there prime is a sight to be seen and never to be seen again. they are gone do to development, soil compaction, road widening and salt. and the 38 hurricane took alot of the trees.there are a few left i a do not tap many of them i leave them alone to live out there remaining years. one tree the neighbors cut down was a solid healthy tree. see did not like it. i counted 175 rings and i dont think i counted them all.

[Dave Y]

Maplecrest,
It is said the a heathy sugar maple can live up to 300yrs. Reds are 150 yrs.
that tree was middle aged. I have a sugar maple in my yard that is about 3 feet across the stump. I saw a picture of it that was taken about 100 yrs ago. it was almost that large then. It will make about 20 gal of sap in a 12hr period, on buckets.

[sapman]

I really wish I could see the picture I've heard about that was taken of the trees I used to tap. My pastor has since bought the property, and he was told of an early photo of the trees in his yard that shows civil war soldiers eating lunch in their shade. So they musy have been decent size, at least 50 years old I'd guess. He still taps some of them, but several that are close to the highway are now gone.

Tim

[mountainvan]

now I'm sounding like a tree hugger, I do hug my maples. I wonder if all the junk people have put into the environment in the last 60 years has caused a decrease in sapflow/tree health. I do remember hearing that when all the planes were grounded after 9/11 that there was a bigger difference between the daytime and nighttime temps because the sky was clearer. To keep on the thread, what about using a piece if tubing between the adaptor and a 5/16 spile? Regular maple tubing won't work but maybe a smaller id? Then you wouldn't have to switch everything to adaptors and stubbys. What about storing the adaptors in alcohol in the off season? I would think that no bacteria would survive. Maybe I'll see if I can get some agar from my wifes school and do a little experiment.

[Catskill Mt. Maple]

This is what I can tell you about a new spout from Maple Innovations. It is brand new technology with patent pendings in US and Canada. It is a smart spout. It detects bacteria and other microbes and releases silver ions that cause the bacteria to die. Microbes that come in contact with this spout soon die. It is not a throw away spout as is the adapter with the check valve. All the spouts of today with the exception of this one retain bacteria. So if you use it over again you innoculate you tap hole with microbes that close off the xeylum tubes and the sap stops flowing. Sounds expensive ? not as much as you would think about $ 1.25 ea. They have EPA and FDA approvals for food and water. They will be out in production quantities the end of July 2009. More info and were you can get them will be out soon in the "Maple News" and "Farming". There will also be drop line tubing with this same technology coming by fall from Maple Innovations. If you are worried about silver being toxic it is less so then table salt and why it is FDA and EPA approved.

[KenWP]

So with the smart spouts and the adapters added on you can tap half the trees and make the same amount of syrup. Actually makes sense in the long run as we try so hard to cut down on germs attacking the trees with disenfectants and such. This would just make it a little bit better. Wonder if they will bring out a bucket spout also.

[sapman]

So those smart spouts are going to act like kind of a UV in the woods? They should make light syrup all season! Has any testing been done on these spouts yet? I would think that is the first thing that needs doing before going to market, but perhaps I missed something.

Thanks for the info,
Tim

[mountainvan]

No need for the adaptors, they would not inhibit bacterial growth in the taphole while the other spout would. I could see using the SS with buckets, just have a couple inch piece of tubing going into the bucket, I all ready do that with regular health spouts. I don't think the SS have been used in the woods, but the science backs up the claim. Not sure about the light all season, I sell more dark anyway. The SS should keep micropes from growing in the taphole so that you have peak flow all through the season. I could see it lessening the staining inside the wood also.The nanosilver is used in medical equipment, food containers( Coors uses it for beer tubing), and clothes( It helps get rid of smelly feet). I'm definitly going to get some to try, probably in the new bush up the hill. Hi Tom.

[Mark]

After spending some time looking up nanosilver I feel that it will probably be banned like tap hole pellets. I wouldn't put it in my trees until someone else tried it for a while.

[Brent]

For those of us still using buckets, maybe we should be making solutions of silver and squirting the bark where we're going to top and then the squirt the spile before we set it.

[KenWP]

The tap hole pellets were formaldyhyde were they not. In the old days people used to put a couple of drops in milk so they never had to scald it and every body in the house had ulcers.
They have cutting boards and knife handles with something in them to inhibit germ growth so the knowledge is there just has to be affordable.

[Catskill Mt. Maple]

The new spouts with antimicrobial protection are not the throw away type. The antimicrobial within the spout will last as long as the spout does. The spout is basically made of the same materials as all other nylon spouts of today. 10 years? It has FDA, EPA and USDA approvals for food and water. When microbes are present it releases silver ions that cause the microbes to die. Lab test of the material used in the spout reduced the amount of bacteria present by 99.99999%. That information will be available soon. Price about $1.25 Each.

[GGervais]

Is it just a spout or is an adapter that needs to fit a certain type of stubby? It would sure be nice to get rid of the adapter, just an extra thing to carry around or cause a leak.

[Catskill Mt. Maple]

It is a complete spout. It looks like any of the Health spout, ecolo spouts. Green in color hooks to the drop line and fits most any tee.

[Mark]

How close do the microbes have to be to the spout to be killed? If the tree sucks sap back through the spout how quick can the spout kill the microbes as they pass through?

[Catskill Mt. Maple]

Once the microbes come in contact with the spout they are rendered harmless. The release of the silver ions is very quick and once they come in contact with the microbes they soon die. What we do know is in other applications the xeylum tubes were kept free of bacteria. We feel that most of the bacterial growth occurs durning warm slow flow conditions and this is when the spout will help the most. Maple innovations is also going to produce a drop line tubing with the same properties and it will help prevent that white slime that you often see in your drop lines at the end of the season or during warm spells. There is tubing available now but runs at about $2.00 / foot. They( Maple Innovations) feel the can develope tubing at a more reasonable price $.50 / foot with same effect. Some of the silver will migrate throughout the taphole. Very small amounts are required a few parts per Billion. This silver is used in medical applications ie; Heart valves, stints etc.

[tuckermtn]

so the silver ions get released into the sap to prevent bacterial build up. I know our concentration ratio is 40 or 50 to 1 for sap to syrup - any concern about concentration of silver ions into the finished syrup? Testing for lead and silver in your syrup?

[Catskill Mt. Maple]

The silver ions do not release untill there are microbes present. They attach themselves to the bacteria which then dies. If there is any left over silver it would be present in parts per billion is not toxic and probably in less concentration than the steel and nickel in the syrup from stainless steel pans or tin and silver from soldered pans. Yes, NY state checked for lead a few years ago detected < 50 PPB.

[Brian Ryther]

It sounds like these spouts have been in trials for a few years. Is there any production result information? eg gal/tap

[Brent]

It also sounds like a good filter will catch the silver if it stays stuck to the migcrobes .... 1 micron or so.

[Catskill Mt. Maple]

The technology has been around for a while. However this is the first time it has been used for the application of maple syrup-sap production. The majority of the studies have been in the Lab. The biggest problem I see with most studies done on sap production is they are done for one year and on brand new systems so when the season starts there is no bacteria in any amount in the tubing or anyplace else. Three years on the same tubing same size trees etc. would probably give a much truer picture as to what the real production is.

[Brian Ryther]

I like the idea, but I will not be the test rat for this one. Yes all new systems will produce a greater amount of sap, but for a system that is claiming to not need to be new every year i need to see tested evedence to buy into the idea. The problem seems to be similar lead containmation. If the line is full then only the sap that is in contact with the wall of the tube will be disinfected. How about the bacteria laden air in the tube that is sucked into the tree during negative pressure cycles. At this time I will have to go with check valves that provide positive back flow prevention during negative pressure differentials.
BR

[ennismaple]

The tap hole pellets were formaldyhyde were they not. In the old days people used to put a couple of drops in milk so they never had to scald it and every body in the house had ulcers.
They have cutting boards and knife handles with something in them to inhibit germ growth so the knowledge is there just has to be affordable.

Paraformaldyhyde - it's a know neurotoxin. I can remember using them when I was a kid. We'd tape a pencil to the claws of the hammer to push the pellet into the hole before pounding the spile home. I'm sure a lot of our older trees are in poor health partly due to how long it took those tap holes to heal.

[KenWP]

Probbably 90% of the hog industry in Canada is useing paraformalydyhyde right now to combat circovirius and they don't really have a lot of saftey restrictions on it as to masks and such. I just found it hard to breath with out a mask. I will have to look into this futher as to just how bad it is.

[220 maple]

Tuesday when I stopped in at my equipment dealer Henry I got to look at the new adapter. He said Tim Perkins of the U of V Procter Maple Research had a video at Leader showing how and why they produced 1.09 gallons of syrup to the taphole. I'll try to repeat what I was told. On the video they have a tree that has two taps in it, both taps are under high vacuum, both have drops that goes into a small canister with blue dye in them. When the vacuum pump is turned off the tap with out the check valve adapter sucked the sap back out of the canister and back into the tree, the side with the new adapter did not allow the sap to go back into the tree. Because of that the tap ran as hard as a freshly tapped tree the whole season. The gain was at the end of the season. Henry said they probably would not help gravity systems that much. I guess they need to do more testing in that area.

Mark 220 Maple

[PATheron]

I dont think these new check valves are going to make a huge change and this is why. If you leave your pump running as long as the lines are thawed out theres no advantage that I can see. Thats how I do it, I never shut the pump off unless the laterals are solid, and normally I dont even shut it off then. Where is the advantage there. Im running an average off roughly 4 tenths on a two year period and thats not even close to a gallon. Where I do see a huge advantage is where a guy is running a gas engine to provide vac to a big bush. There it would be great becouse the pump has to come off and on. Guys running 100,000 taps arent running gas engines Im betting and Id also bet they are already running their pumps nonstop. If I do some remote stuff on gas I might use them but I just cant see how they do anything that a pump that runs full time doesnt do. Thee(thinkin this may be a big crock of dog-doodoo)roon

[3rdgen.maple]

My grandfather always said if it is too good to be true, well you guys get the story. Doing what I do for a living there is always R&D going on with the latest and greatest. Well the way I see things from experience is that Alot of R&D is like the guy on the infomertials. I would really hesitate to go out and buy something that I personally have not tested in limited quanity. Just my opinion guys. I would test them but I would not go crazy just yet.

[PATheron]

I can see it on a gas pump becouse you have to shut it off becouse of the situation. I still say though leaving the pump on is a good trick. Thats how Richard does it down here and he swears by it and I do think it makes good sense. Gotta get the pump on electric if a guy can. Scott Wheeler says the same thing and that guys is as fussy as they come. I will put them on the first gas bush I do though. I think they would be real nice there then you could shut the pump off without feeling all sick inside. Theron

[ennismaple]

That's why I'm doing my own test under "real world" conditions. The bush I'm trying them in I know exactly how much sap I got per tap compared to the rest of the bush. Ask me at the end of April 2010 if they're worth the money!

[PATheron]

That sounds good to me. If I thought they would improve my main bush Id buy them tomarrow. The other reason I dont think they improve on running the pump like Im doing is last year my taps ran for 3 months. That kind of proves my reasoning. If that pump needs to come off though I bet they do match the benefit of the continuous running. Like I said first gas pump I put in the woods Ill put the valves on every tap. Theron

[Brent]

Is there any news on a dealer getting these yet so we can order them ??

[halfast tapper]

Here is one other thing to think about , how much money is it costing you in electricity to run a pump non stop. It might be cheaper in the long run to use the adapters if they work the way they are supposed to. You also have to figure in on wear and tear on the pump with running nonstop. Just something to think about. As with any new product I will wait a couple of years to see the results.

[KenWP]

Brent Ennis has them ordered from Leader already so they either are here or on the way.

[vermaple]

I will be ordering some soon, only need to figure out what % I want to use them on, or if I want to go whole hog and do them all.

[KenWP]

I have searched the entore Leader web site and there is no mention of the new adapters anywhere. I have no idea how you actually figure out where to find them. I also can't come up with a Canadain web site for Leader.

[Dave Y]

As far as wearing out a pump running it non stop, a pump will wear out quicker starting and stopping them all the time.

[ennismaple]

I have searched the entore Leader web site and there is no mention of the new adapters anywhere. I have no idea how you actually figure out where to find them. I also can't come up with a Canadain web site for Leader.

I don't think Leader has a Canadian distributor yet. I was dealing with Bruce Gilllilan who is the sales rep for Canada. I don't have his email address with me...

[Randy Brutkoski]

Grimmes in Rutland VT told me that leader set up shop in canada over a year ago. Bill said that they actually are doing very well up there.

[brookledge]

Ken they have been advertising in all of the maple magazines about the new adapters and they were giving samples away at Bascom's open house in the spring
Keith

[halfast tapper]

As far as wearing out a pump running it non stop, a pump will wear out quicker starting and stopping them all the time.

Yeah you will wear out the electric motor, but running it nonstop wears out the vains and bearings because of the constant heat. We have ours set up to turn on at 34 degrees and shut off and 30 degrees.

[PATheron]

When Im talking about running the pump all the time Im talking about my liquid ring pump. That type of pump is a different animal altogether than a dairy pump. All it does is spin inside and liquid creates the suction. There is virtually nothing to wear out. The guy I bought it from said that you could probly run it around the clock for ten years straight and I kind of think hes right. As far as the electric it is somewhat costly but pales in comparison to the syrup you make. I dont give it a second thought becouse of the experiance I had the first year. I had a Sunday that I got up and the pump was running and it was snowing, cold, etc. I said to myself, "Self, there is no way there will be any sap running today but I guess Ill let it run becouse tomarrow it might so what the heck. Well, along about lunch time cold and all it opened up and ran enough sap to pay the electric for probly the better part of a month. That was enough to convince me to let it run. Sometimes you go out in the morning and it warmed up in the night. I make money enough by accident with a running pump to pay the bill and then some. If your running a dairy pump I agree, I dont think you could do it that way. Probly kill it for sure. Theron

[ennismaple]

Grimmes in Rutland VT told me that leader set up shop in canada over a year ago. Bill said that they actually are doing very well up there.

I think you're correct - Bruce told me he had someone (not sure who) that was carrying his stuff in southern Ontario. He doesnt have anyone to carry it in Central and Eastern Ontario. I talked to several people who've bought pans, 30P and other equipment from Leader and all are very satisfied.

A little competition for the big 3 from Quebec should be a good thing for producers!

[KenWP]

And who are the big three from Quebec besides D&G and Lapeirere (spell check it is a french name) whos the 3rd name. I am lucky that the D&G is close and the CO-OP handles the L brand in the spring at least.

[ennismaple]

CDL (Maple Pro)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Bruce Gillilan's email is probably Bruce@Leaderevaporator.com as this is what it is normally, first name @Leaderevaporator.com.

[Brent]

Here is a link to the only Leader I know of in Canada. He stocks an pretty extensive line, including a few small evaporators.

He runs about 3600 taps on his own and last season switched pans to a new Leader maxi pan and loves it. His stack temp dropped about 50 degrees when he switched and the production per gallon of fuel oil went up significantly.

I have been dealing with him for a couple years now. I got a Leader water jacket finisher from him and complained about Leader cutting their logo all around the top. Difficult to clean and it let out the heat. And a pinhole leak around the take-off weld. A few weeks later I got a call ... 'your new finisher is here'. A custom made job with a fully enclosed water jacket with the exception of a 3/4 filler hole. Beautiful. Bring back the first one ... no charge. A good dealer and a good manufacturer is hard to beat.

http://www.unclerichardsmaplesyrup.com/index.html
Ask for Dick Obrien (Richard )

[caseyssugarshack93]

has any one hurd a update on when there going ot be out to buy or make orders?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

My local leader dealer took my order a couple of weeks ago. No word on when they will come but he was encouraging people to place their orders.

[caseyssugarshack93]

so i could call up my local dealer and place a order? im going to probably only run 2-500, anyone hear if there going to make them to fit onto a 5/16th tap,?

[Mark]

They are not going to make one for the 5/16" you will need their stubby spout.
The cost would be way too much to make another design.

[caseyssugarshack93]

oh well i already have stubbies anyway so i should be set for the little im going to be doing this year with the checkvalves, ill probably switch everything over to stubbies in a few years anyway,

[maplecrest]

nate, read my august post

[caseyssugarshack93]

Jeff, Im guessing the new check vavle is going to be in the fall leader book? and your brothers probably geting paid pretty good now? thats good he got a good job again, i only bought 200 stubbies just to try the check valve but im doing a whole bush with them so im going to buy 2-300 more because i figure around a 500 tap bush, What are you going to do change all the stubbies out with leader ones? or just stay with what you have.

[maplecrest]

last year i finally had stubbies on all taps. and tech changes again. i am in the works of a 1000 new taps and i will use them there in that woods.as for the other 7500 i bought cdl adapters at the spring sale and going to use those up since money has been spent

[caseyssugarshack93]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwJSNKS0AEU

check it out

[maplecrest]

nate that is the plant where my brother is working

[mansfield]

The Proctor results are not from a typical set-up, (200 taps with two pipe system, one tap per tree, some of which are 24-30" dia.). If you ask around you will discover that there are a few excellent producers that tried some with less volume than their average. For some reason these results are not included!

[3rdgen.maple]

Mansfield that is why I go back to my response of.......... I do not believe it until I try it. Does proctor get kickbacks on the sales of the products they test? Im willing to gamble and say yes.

[Haynes Forest Products]

So let see if the tree is running/giving up sap and you turn off your vacuum and there is a backflow back into the tap hole that is when the cross contamination happens. So if you let the vacuum off slowly and you let the tree catch up with the natural sap flow you will have less contamination??? So if you have the check ball adapters and the vacuum is turned off the backflow will not send sap back into the tap hole BUT after the vacuum is off and the tree and the outside pressures equalize and the tree is still producing sap the ball will open and there will me a mixing of sap just after the vacuum level in the tree is equal to the outside tubing.

Wouldnt it make more sence to have a check valve with a small spring in it that only opens under vacuum and helps keep the sap in the tree and only starts the sap flow during the vacuum prosses and keep the two saps from ever mixing even after equalization????

I have a bag of ultra clean inline spring loaded low pressure barb fitting type check valves that fit sap tubing about 200 of them and couldnt you put them in the latterals at every branch and decrease the suck back???

Ill sell them all for $25.00+ shipping any takers. Im serious you could post your results right here

[maplecrest]

proctor hold the patent

[Randy Brutkoski]

I just ordered 3000 of these new spouts today at Grimmes. I hope i didnt make a costly error. Also today i bought a wire spooler, which i should have done long ago. No more headaches. Now i just need to learn how to use the **** thing.

[Rhino]

Instead of the check valve taps..Why not just run vac. until total freeze up happens at night? minimal suck back if any. another question i have is. alot of the tap holes clogging up is due to any way above normal temps. it speeds up the bacteria growth. even with those check valve taps, on a 60 degree day when the sap is just weeping slowly, your going to have bacteria starting to grow inside the hole. 60 sunny degrees air temp might be 80 degrees on the south side bark of a tree. Few years back we retapped all our 4000 taps because of record temps for about 4 days. when we pulled those taps out some of those holes were black like coal. lots of xtra work but the weather turned good and we saved our season. This past year was crazy, 31 to 32 degrees, snowing, and those trees were pounding, perfect conditions for no bacteria to clog up the holes. Im sure the check valve taps will help a little with this problem, but if the weather turns warm early, no tap is going to help stop the bacteria process. just my thoughts through our experience. now every season i pray it dos,nt hit record heat.

[dschultz]

I like my way of tapping drill the hole put the tap in and let Mother Nature do the rest.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Rhino Thats what I do is let it freeze I run my pumps late at night and most times I have slush in the releaser and the pumps ran out of gas or timed out.

[brookledge]

I too let my vac pump run longer than I used to but the reality of it is when it freezes,not all of the lines freeze at the same time. Elevation plays alot in a bush and when your releaser freezes up the sap may still be flowing alittle bit. That is where you get contamination that you can't control by leaving the vac pump on all the time. I'm going to use some of them but not in all of my taps. I have stubbies on about 1/3 of my taps and will see how it affects me before I go and replace all of my taps with stubbies.
The way I look at it is if I spend .40 on each tap and in turn I get say 5 more days of flow, that in turn will give me ten times more of the cost of the adapter in syrup
Keith

[jason grossman]

i don't think the new adapters are the "magic cure-all" i think the way to go is let those vaccum pumps run longer. until things are froze up. that's what i do, and i am always telling people try running your pumps longer before you spend the money to switch taps. then make sure the pumps are back on before the lines thaw out!!

[maplwrks]

My pumps go on the first day the sap runs and get shut off the day I pull taps. I will try some of the new adapters this year--but I really think that this is another push by Leader to make some quick cash.

[caseyssugarshack93]

what do you think about guys running gas engines? if you cant run electric?

[Haynes Forest Products]

well gas is the next best option Im thinking propane would be nice only because Im tired of smelling like gas at the end of the day.

[brookledge]

You can certainly run gas engines just be sure to match up the proper HP and speed of the vac pump. I'm not sure of the ratio but I know you need more HP for gas than you do for electric. Some one on the trader has discussed this before.
Keith

[3rdgen.maple]

Is this another one of the dryline booster pump things? HP is HP is HP is it not? Do you guys say you need a bigger hp gas motor compared to an electric motor due to the rpm's not the actuall hp?

[brookledge]

This thread is starting to get off topic but I'm sure someone can help, All I know is that I have been told that if you have, say a 3HP electric motor and you want to run the same thing with a gas engine you will need alot bigger gas engine like a 8 or 10 HP to equal the electic regardless of the rpm's.
I might be wrong that is why I'm questioning it
Keith

[lpakiz]

I could be wrong but I understood 1HP electric equals 2 HP in gasoline....

[caseyssugarshack93]

I was told if you have a 2.5hp electic you need a 5hp gas, and i think thats pretty acuarte

[caseyssugarshack93]

gas engines don't have the torque that elect motors do

[3rdgen.maple]

Ok guys here is the answer to the mystery. Horsepower = Torque (lbs-ft) X RPM / 5252. If an engine or motor can produce a little torque at high speed, it can produce as much horsepower as another engine that can produce a lot of torque but can't run as fast.

[KenWP]

Remember once you get a electric motor started and especially the bigger ones the armature weighs a lot so the stored energy makes it turn with more force easyier. With gas you are working on the combustion of the fuel to keep the piston turning at the same speed and with the same force. Thats why its easy to over work a gas engine if it's not big enough. The old one cylinder bangers had heavy flywheels for a reason the piston just kept the fly wheel turning and that gave you the power.