Turbo model

[caseyssugarshack93]

Are lapierre tubos models a really good model i now with the jouinor they still have some bugs to work out im just thinking about a turbo or a springtech i just dont know if i could afford the springtech there pricy but are they any better ? there really nice lookin machines


thanks nate

[maplwrks]

Stick with the Lapierre Nate. The Turbo is the workhorse of the Lapierre line. If you order one, make sure you have it made so that it is expandable. The Springtechs are pricey, and don't do the job that the Lapierre will do.

[caseyssugarshack93]

i was looking at them yesterday and i think 12,000 isnt reallly that bad for a 600 turbo

[Russell Lampron]

I'm with Mike, the Lapierre Turbo is the way to go. Don't let the poor performance of the junior model steer away you from Lapierre. It will outperform the Springtech and cost less too.

[maplwrks]

I think if you squeezed Matt alittle--You could get it for a little over $11000

[caseyssugarshack93]

im hoping to get a r/o but im also looking at a 4x12 too just to get me by for next season so i can offord a little more but who knows, if i get a 4x12 a addion would be added to the sugarhouse and that money but the sugarhouse is going to get one anyways so who knows, ill see when they come to pick up the jounor r/o and see what matt has to offer.

[caseyssugarshack93]

Whats really the differnce from a springtech and a lapierre and other brands ? i know the price is deffinly differnt are springtechs that much better ? or last longer or somthing ?

[chrisnjake9]

what were the issues you had with the jr

[caseyssugarshack93]

only the top of the membrain housing was made out of plastic and metal bolts holded it together and when i ran a little a little over 300psi it would blow apart thats the only probelem i really had its a nice r/o just kinda small for me, and im sure they will redeign the top of the membrain housing

[chrisnjake9]

what were you getting for numbers and price

[Homestead Maple]

I was at Glenn Goodrich's open house Fri. and he did a seminar on RO's. He really liked the RO's that had a recirculation pump in the membrane housing because of the performance of the RO over all. He prefers the CDL because the recirculation pump and motor is within the RO chamber vs the Lapierre which is externally mounted. He said that because the pump is immersed in the sap, that it cools the pump and there's less chance of over heating the pump. I haven't ever seen the inside of a CDL membrane housing but I wondered if it might be difficult to replace the pump if needed and I don't know of anyone having any troubles with the external pump on the Turbos. The CDL membrane housing has to be a lot taller to do the same work.

[caseyssugarshack93]

this jouior dont have recilation pumps so u loose the gpm faster than u would with recirlation pumps, and the most i got out of it was llike 165gph with really clean membrains then after that is stayed at around 125 for the rest of the season till igot into some nasty sap. lapierre is coming to pic up the r/o this week i think, i dont really know what there going to to do with it probably fix the highpressure pump that went and sell it, i was looking at used springtech r/o but when i get my momeh back for the r/o it stays in the store and i didnt know that so now im looking for a used r/o from them or maybe a new but who knows but i hear the lapierre r/os are good but do they both do about the same gph lapierre and spring tech ? or is there diffence there with out performing?

[twobears1224]

ok,i have to ask a dumb question.. what's a recirculation pump do??
i,ve been around sugaring my whole life but we never used ro and i,ve never even been in the same room with one.i have been doing alot of research on them the last few weeks tho.

delbert

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Two Bears,
Stop over and you can be in the same room with mine. The recirculation pump keeps the sap swirling around the membrane so that the membrane does not clog up with sugar and minerals as fast, hence a more efficient and faster RO.

[Russell Lampron]

Twobears1224 the pump is actually a circulation pump not a recirculation pump. It puts a spin on the sap, sort of like the tornado that you see in a drain, as it enters the membrane so that the sugar doesn't clog the entrance.

[twobears1224]

thanks for the info...thompson:i,ll get ahold of you one of these days and take you up on that offer...thanks.

delbert

[caseyssugarshack93]

Twobears, Where are u loacated in northern ny ? im in saranac im sure ur not far from me

[twobears1224]

93:about one hour straight south on route 3 and you,ll find me.

delbert

[Brent]

I'm no expert on this, having just picked up my first real maple RO, but it seems some ROs don't have a 3rd pump for re-cirulation. Mine has two ports on the high pressure pump, one for the raw sap coming in and one that draws off the the second membrane tank. As I adjust the valves I can boost the flow of concentrate, which is really the flow of re-circulation.

Mine is a 180 GPH Airablo. I think when you go larger that this, they start putting in a 3rd pump just for recirculation. All the plumping, vavles, pump motor and motor controls could easily add another $ 1000 and likely more, to the cost of a unit.

[Russell Lampron]

Brent do you have motors/pumps on the bottoms of your membrane housings? I think each one should have one on it. Those would be the circulation pumps.

[Grade "A"]

what kind of pump would make sap swirl like a tornado? Is it a centrifugal pump run backwards?

[Russell Lampron]

I have never checked to see which direction it turns but don't think that it makes any difference. When you look into the pressure vessel from the top you can see the impeller on the top of the pump. The sap from the high pressure pump enters the bottom of the pressure vessel just above the impeller. The circulation pump swirls the sap where it enters the bottom of the membrane keeping the sugars from clogging up the entrance to the membrane.

[Brent]

Russ
Nope, not on this rig. 1Hp feed pump and a 3Hp high pressure pump.

The high pressure pump has one port right on the bottom coming from the feed pump, and then another inlet about 10" up from that on the stack of stage. This second port takes flow from the side of the second ( last ) membrane vessel. The flow control on the concentrate lets me adjust the concentrate flow rate with relatively little effect on the permearte flow rate.

Probably no as efficient as a third pump but for a smaller rig at a more modest price, maybe not a bad compromise. We'll see what I think of it after a few seasons.

===========
My current challenge is trying to figure what the Quebecois really meant by "conductivity". In the test chart they wrote in a number for each membrane. 76 and 2 on each of them. No idea what they meant. The brilliant book also give no clue as to the flow rates or pressure settings for the acid and basic washes. Neither Leader, who sold it new, or Airablo have responded to my enquiries.

[Grade "A"]

Russ, I see what you are saying. I was thinking that the circulation pump is pumping sap through it (in line), maybe on some models it does but it sounds like the circulation pump does not put out any more pressure, just makes sap swirl. I could see how it would not work as good if the pump was not hooked to the pressure vessel.

[Russell Lampron]

Grade A you've got it figured out. The only purpose of the circulation pump is to swirl the sap. It makes a big difference on the flow rates if it isn't there.

Brent there are no specified pressures or flow rates for washing and rinsing. You only run the feed pump for those cycles and what it puts out for pressure and flow is what you've got.

[sapman]

I, like Brent, have an Airablo, though a larger model. I've asked the manufacturer about the lack of a recirc. pump, and was told the pressure pump also gives the needed circulation. From what I hear, sounds like the extra pump still makes things work better. But maybe without it, is one less thing to go wrong?

Brent, if you still got questions on your RO I might be able to help. I'm no expert, but have a similar machine. You could also call right up to Leader and ask to speak to Mike Emerson. He's the expert up there, and always gives me great advice.

Tim

[Russell Lampron]

Brent do the washing instructions for your RO tell you to run the high pressure pump too? I just remembered that Royalmaple's old Springtec RO says to do that. It also doesn't say anything about pressure and flow rates. If you do have to run your high pressure pump too run it so that the pressure isn't much higher than your feed pump pressure. The flow rate shouldn't matter as long as you have some flow.

[Brent]

thanks for comments guys.

I found a ton of Technical Service Bulletins on the Hydranautics web site

http://membranes.com/index.php?pagename=tech_bulletins and three that pertain to the PVD membrances in the Ariablo rig.

Somewhere in them they suggest not to use high pressure because it could cause re-depositing minerals back on the membrane after the acid has taken it off. They give suggested flow rates on the 4" units of 8 to 10 GPM. With pressure valve wide open and the condensate flow wide open, I get something above 5 ( top of flow chart on mine ) for the condesnate and about 2.5 on the permeate, so it's in the ball park for cleaning. They detail out the correct chemicals an PH's Also they say that if the PH moves away from the target range, to add more to bring it back ( 2 and 12 ).

On the re-circulation pump thing, I don't necessarily think there is a big advantage to having a pump directly mounted on the pressure vessel. Any swirling effect will only be effective on the outer layer of the membrane. All the flow through the inner membranes is going to slow and not " swirling ".
I took the membrane apart on the GE Merlin and on the little 2" membrane there were maybe 15 wraps around a core, and a sort of screen mesh wrapped between the layers of the membrane. Once the sap starts to flow inside these wraps these wraps, swirling will be gone and the real flow rate over any one position will look pathetically slow. The little GE membrane was about 4 feet long when unrolled. Thats a lot of surface area and a lot of channels to divide the GPH over. I would guess that a membrane on a 4" or 8" membrane would roll out like the red carpet at the academy awards.

Still running the acid through on its second series of acid/basic cycyling. Going to re-try the flow rates on plain water thsi aft. Still scratching my balding head on the meaning of "conductivity"

[sapman]

Russ, with the Airablo the pressure pump always starts running several seconds after the feed pump is going. They are wired that way. At least mine is!

Tim

[Brent]

and just to show the inconsistency, mine are on separate start buttons.

The high pressure pump will not start unless the feed pump has pressure on the pressure switch.

[Russell Lampron]

On my Lapierre the circulation pump starts as soon as the feed pump reaches 20psi but I have a separate button to start the high pressure pump.

[sapman]

On mine, I turn the switch to the on position to start the feed pump. As long as the pressure maintains over 12-14psi, the pressure/recirc. pump starts automatically. If the psi drops, even for an instant, they both shut down. Then I have to push another button for the pres./rec. pump, and it restarts both pumps.

Tim