dallaire maple pro vs leader

[Peteyp426]

Drove 10.5 hrs to the open houses on friday. First time to vermont and to the open houses. Leader company has a beautiful place it is a very high tech opperation. Maple pro has a nice layout both places were packed with people. I went to get some supplies, and look at a new evaporator. 2.5 x 10 leader prices are high compared to maplepro. they were 3200 more for their cooker than maplepro. I made shure that they had very close to the same options and really no difference. I don't see were than can justify that much of a difference on price

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Petey,
Not sure if I could justify the difference either. The one thing I will say for Leader is look at Bryan Ryther's recent posts concerning repairs of his pan. The service from Leader is difficult to replicate. I have problems with their pricing too. Identical item from the same mnfg. co is 60% more from Leader????
Anyway, I guess I'm saying there may be a bit more to consider than price alone.

[maplecrest]

leader rigs boil totally different than maple pro. one thing i liked about maple pro rig is the channel on the side to get rid of the cold spot there. was running a lot of numbers myself about a different rig at some point

[markY]

I shopped this weekend for equipment for a new sugar house and it seems hard to beat the maple pro prices for their 3x10 intens-o-fire set up Vs a leader arch. I would rather have leader equipment for their service and workmenship that can not be beat in my opinion. But 30% less firewood and considerable less in price for the intens-o-fire vs a setup from leader that does the same evaporation rate of 150 gph. My idea is the intens-o-fire arch with leader revolution max pans. Can this be done? what does everbody think? I would then be able to make syrup on leader pans which I perfer. All this with cdl 600 ro and 5hp sihi vacuum pump from maple pro and all canning,cream and candy equipment from leader.

All this with 2200 existing taps and looking to expand to 3500 and beyond in the future

[hard maple]

leader needs to make a cross flow to be competetive with the other maple manufacters .
the max seems nice but the revolution is just a glorified reverse flow.

as far as their outragoues pricing...go halves with a friend, the money you save on the cdl you could almost buy two of everything at leaders prices.

[maplecrest]

no one said you had to buy the revolution front pan you could buy the intensofire arch from maple pro and a max pan from leader and cross flow pans from maple pro

[caseyssugarshack93]

isnt the only thing differnt about a revolution pan is better stainless and u can draw off one side the whole season without switching sides ?

[halfast tapper]

isnt the only thing differnt about a revolution pan is better stainless and u can draw off one side the whole season without switching sides ?

You still switch sides so to speak. Your just reversing the flow and still drawing off same side. It's nice just takes about 10 seconds to reverse flow don't have to shut down or anything. Been boiling on a friends for about 6 years now. Nice pans in my opinion.

[Bucket Head]

"Leader rigs boil totally different". Do Leaders out perform everything out there? Or is there a better performing manufacturer out there? I have thought about new pans also. And I agree that Leader is top notch with quality. However, I also agree that thier pricing is obsene. Like everyone, I'm looking for the most bang for my buck. If Leader is "the best" boiler out there, than I would'nt be so concerned with the overpricing. But if other brands perform the same, well then its a different story.

I'm certain my sap won't care who made the pans. I will be using my existing arch, I'm just going to stretch it if I upgrade pans.

Is there a company out there that is hands down better than the others at evaporation? If there is, thats the one I want to
look at!

What do you guy's think?

Steve

[markY]

For the most part price for the equipment is a driving force for me as it is for all of us, along with good performance is also very important. I am willing to pay a little more for leader pans. I will save by buying the cdl ro and sihi vacuum. I really think that the revolution max pans on top of the intensofire arch would be a very nice rig. I believe they should perform close to what the dallaire pans do, Am I wrong?

[Haynes Forest Products]

I curious about sevice What the heck goes wrong with a set of pans. My Waterlo Small Pans from MaplePro are 5 years old and its ME thats the problem. After 5 years I need a new gasket and a site glass because I broke mine. After setting the pans on fire and warping them and beating them back into shape from the out side you cant tell.

[Amber Gold]

What about throwing Waterloo in the mix? How do their recent (say less then 5 years) evaporators compare?

[johnallin]

Just sold the Half Pint, and I am also in the market for a 2x6.

Any input from you guys is well worth listening to. I am leaning towards a Leader "American" set of pans pans on the WSE? arch, based on what I have seen- and read so far. Being able to draw from the same side without spinning the pan around appeals to me a lot.

Does resale on a Leader verses one of the others vary much? I was pleasently suprised to sell the Half Pint to the first guy to look at it. I'm thinking the brand has a good reputation and if we decide to move up again that means alot.

We are going up to Vermont around May 7 to see the Leader plant, could not make the open house due to other plans.

Also going to build a timber framed 14x18 sugar house, with a 10x12 porch for wood storage this fall to house everything in one spot. This hobby is taking on a life of its own, I've been sailing for 33 years on the great lakes and built my own 32' boat, but I think this is worse......

[Oaknut]

Just upgraded this spring from a 2x4 vermont special (Leader) to a 2x8 with MAX flue pan and Inferno arch. Never boiled on anything but a Leader so I can't say it's better than any other brand. But I can say I'm very happy with an average gph of 88. The MAX is insane once you get it cranked up. Broke 100 gph on two different nights when everything was perfect.

[Bucket Head]

Wow, a 32 foot boat!

Just imagine the sap that could be boiled if you cut all the wood from it up into pieces that would fit into the firebox of a 2x6! LOL!

Well, unless it's fiberglass. Then it would have to be used as a sap storage tank. And you could use the bilge pump to unload it!

Anyway, if we had two 2.5x10 standard arch's, with standard pans, raised or drop- does'nt matter, one from Leader and one from Maple Pro, which one is going to perform better? I can't imagine the Leader being worth "$3200" more based on performance. How, or where, does the Maple Pro rig "depreciate" $3200 worth in craftmanship and/or service?

I have never dealt with either company on an evaporator so I am curious to hear from more folks who do own evaporators from these companies. Who is unhappy with what they have and why?

Steve

[sapman]

I've got a question about cross-flow vs reverse-flow. I know the advantage of the reverse is to clean the pan, which doesn't always, or like this year, rarely worked sufficiently for me. That's all I've ever used. Are cross-flows faster somehow, or better in some other way?

Thanks,
Tim

[maplecrest]

i have two reverse flow pans one on washer as one on rig. a pain to change. the cross flow pans have to be changed every 2 hours and put on washer and a different pan put on the best part of reverse flow pans is you can boil 4 hours switching sides at 2 hours.but the model at maple pro was a reverse flow cross flow pans but the pans have to come off to be cleaned at the end of the day or two more pans to but to switch out

[Squaredeal]

I have a dallaire cross flow set-up with two front pans. I have an extra pan so that I can have one off for cleaning while boiling.
I clean the "back" front pan once or twice during the season as it doesn't really get dirty.
The "front" front pan I clean every morning. Doing it every day makes it easy to clean. I let it soak with while I'm boiling and give it a quick scrub with a long handled brush whenever I walk by. Next morning it's ready to rinse and start over.
I should mention that I also have a dump tank that I can empty the dirty pan and pump it into the new one.
I've boiled on traditional plans plenty and cannot see going back, but I think that it depends on how much sap your going to boil and money you want to spend. There's a reason why all of the large operations in Quebec have gone to cross-flow set ups. That's what made me look at it in the first place.

[DS Maple]

How do others feel D&G equipment compares to the rest? I know some people who feel Leader is junk and D&G is the only way to go. Personally I think they both look nice, but can't say I've boiled on a new Leader rig or a D&G one.

[Haynes Forest Products]

On my Waterloosmall the only reason to swich sides is to reverse the flue pan so I only draw off the one side. I find its easer to keep the evaporator room set up for one side draw off. I clean my pans every night when I shut down. I spend about 15 min at night and 15 in the morning and Im all clean and ready to go and I dont remove my pans.

[ROBIEZ]

I went to all four open houses,Leader,MaplePro,Lapierre,and D&G,looking at new evaporators.Leader pans were the only ones I found that had full-seam welded partitions,all others were only spot welded every couple of inches.With spot welded partitions/dividers,syrup can back mix and get deluted with less concentrated syrup from an other partition next to it.For this reason I would buy Leader,and spend the extra money to get a better rig,and one that is made in USA.This my two cents.

[PATheron]

I dont know anything about any of the other brands but I buy all CDL becouse my buddy Richard sells them mainly and Im real happy with my rig. Its a raised flue 3 by 10 and after Jerry helped me with the bricks it does around 120 gph Id say and its not hard to get that either. Real happy with it on all accounts. Have a little problem with sap leaking some nights into the syrup pan from the flue pan but thats about it. Thats the only problem Ive ever had and it hasnt bothered me enough to address it yet so thats no big thing. Theron

[markY]

I agree with brett about the leader pans Vs all others. I have looked at them all my self. My opinion is leader has the best pans. But they are a little behind in the arch department. I was told they are working on a more energy efficient arch, But who knows when it will be availible. I have decided that I am going to buy the 3X10 revolution max set of pans from leader and I am going to put them on top of the intensofire arch from cdl. Then I will have a rocking set as far as I am concerned. Its a done deal.

[johnallin]

Mark, what are your concerns regarding the Leader arches?
I am in the market for a new 4x6 evaporator and am looking at Leader's equip. Does CDL have a site with pricing, or do they have any dealers with the same.
Thanks.

[markY]

Don't get me wrong I have no problem with leader arches. I have worked off a 3X10 leader arch for years. I just feel that the intensofire arch is a little more advanced in technology. 30% less wood and the same or better performance. I also like the idea that it not like a roman candle coming out the stack and not going to burn the place down. It works like a gasification unit. It also qualifies for energy grant money where as leader does not have that as of now. www.cdl-dallaire.com check it out. I don't think you will find prices there but info you will find.

[markY]

try this one www.maplepro.com for the intensofire arch

[brookledge]

Brett
Funny thing that you mentioned the seams being continuously welded on Leader and not others. My neighbor bought new pans last year from D&G and this year while filling his flue pan noticed he had sap coming in from two directions. Well he found out that the divider in the float box had a gap in the seam that was not welded. So he began looking and found another spot (I can't remember) that was letting sap flow through the divider.
Needless to say he was not very happy.
Last year with the hood in place he never really looked for any problems for the fact they where new pans.
I wonder if you where to require the ones that don't continuously weld the seams if they would intern charge more for the pan.
Keith

[Brent]

I think the key to trying to compare specs on pans is to look at the number of flues and the depth of each. Measure the real surface area that is exposed to the flames. I looked at the WSE and compared it to my Phaneuf and it had about 1/2 of the surface area. If I recall there were 3 fewer flue channels and each was 2" shorter than mine.

If you can, get the flue dimensions of the Leader and the Maple pro.

The Leader Maxi-flue exemplifies what I am talking about. The flues in it are enormous and the surface area for heat transfer is huge ... like the price.
But a lot less fuel gets burned. The guy near me put in a maxi pan and his stack temp with an oil burner went down 50 degrees and his oil bill went down 40%.

You don't get nothing for nothing.

[hard maple]

Horsehockey!!!!
how much more would it cost to fully weld a seem???
The reason they don't is so the pan can flex more.
The soldered pans flex more than a welded pan.
This back mixing gimick has not been proven!
that is why they say ...it "could" cause a drop in grade

[Haynes Forest Products]

One of the reasons that they stitch weld the flue pan dividers is to keep the pan from looking like a Trisket cracker when they get done. You cant put a full weld down the entire seam it will pull and shrink and do strange things under heat. On my WaterlooSmall the finish pan dividers are made out of one sheet front,bottom, double wall divider, bottom, back divider and back. All one piece and I can tell you after catching them on fire and having them warp so bad that I had them sandblasted and the with a rubber mallet I beat the hell out of them to get them back to usable Im impressed with what did to them and they still work just hard to clean.

[johnallin]

The Leader Maxi-flue exemplifies what I am talking about. The flues in it are enormous and the surface area for heat transfer is huge ... like the price.


Brent.
How does the surface area on your Phanauf compare to the Leader Maxi-Flue? I am going up to Leader next week to look at their American Pans on a WSE 2X6 arch.

From what I can see, the American set of pans looks to be better than the standard WSE pans but their literature leaves an awful lot to the imagination... is the Maxi flu different than the American?

[Brent]

From memory the Phaneuf flues are 7 1/2 or 8 1/2 inches deep. Maybe I shouldn't even be guessing and give you the wrong impression.

I think Leader will vary the flue depth in the Maxi-Pan according to the size of the rig. Something for you to check. I would guess they would be 50% or more deeper than an average pan.

By the way I did find out after the fact that Phaneuf does a "regular" and a "deluxe" pan set. The deluxe have deeper flues and higher sides above the sap level.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I am not sure how anyone can say a Leader arch is higher priced than an intens-o-fire. I priced an intens-o-fire arch a couple of weeks ago for a 2x8 and just the arch was $ 8,300+. I forgot to ask if it was 14 carat or 18 carat gold.

[Bucket Head]

Say what? Eighty three hundred dollars???!!! For just the arch?

Does it cut, split, and stack the fire wood too? It had better for that much money.

Steve

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Not $ 8,300, $ 8,300+ Just For The Arch

[tuckermtn]

for $8300+ you could buy a good used RO and have the leakyest, uglyest arch you can imagine and still be way ahead of the game...

[hard maple]

back when I bought my 2x6
$8300 would have paid for two of them with money left over!!!

[docmaple]

Mark, what are your concerns regarding the Leader arches?
I am in the market for a new 4x6 evaporator and am looking at Leader's equip. Does CDL have a site with pricing, or do they have any dealers with the same.
Thanks.

Hi John, I'm the local CDL dealer. We are located in Middlefield Ohio 1 mile south of the junction of RT 322 and RT528 I would love to give you a tour of my operation and answer any questions about the CDL equipment .We tap 2200 trees and boil on a 4 x 14 CDL wood fired evapotator. Please give me a call at 440-636-5371 Thanks Jim Cermak Sugarbush Creek Farm

[802maple]

I know I have owned or boiled on about every evaporator out there and I would never give consideration to any other pans other than CDL pans as I find them to be the smoothest running pans on the market today.

[johnallin]

Just got back from a drive to Vermont and a visit to the Leader factory. As its been said, they have a very nice operation with people to match.

I am looking for a 2x6 - not 4x6 as I had typed earlier- and wonder if any of you have any experience with the Patriot raised flue verses the American dropped flue style of pan. In the 2x6 the Patriot has a 4 section syrup pan which is only available in a 2x2 where the American syrup pan is only 3 sections but is available in 2x3, or a 2x30 with a 2x42 flue pan. Although the Patriot has a higher evap rate with the 2x4 flue pan is there any problem with a 2x2 syrup pan?

Also stopped at Lapierre to look at their offerings. From what I could see, the Leader pans and arch were better quality than the Lapierre.

Did not have time to get over to CDL.

Any information out there is appreciated as I need to pull the trigger pretty soon to take advantage of the spring sale prices. Thank you

[Brent]

Last year for $ 7600 Cdn I got a 2x6 Phaneuf with a flue pan hood and preheater, and a syrup pan hood, with 3 sets of stacks, delivered. But I getting P****d with him because there is a problem with the hood collecting condensation and in a year he has not come up with a fix.

[johnallin]

Brent,
Sorry to hear you are having trouble with service, seems like you have done a fair amount of web site work for Patrick....
Is your Phaneuf 2x6 a raised or drop flue, and how would you compare it to Leader?
Thanks

[Brent]

I have to say that his craftsmanship and the beauty of the lines of his work tops anything else I have looked at. They're a work of art. The problem I have had from day one is that the drain for the condensation is higher than the channel inside the hoods, so it all drips back into the flue pan. He promised last year to come by and take care of it. That night he drove within 20 miles of my house but never showed. I have even offered to ship it back to him and he has not accepted that I should do that. Frankly I can't see how it can be fixed without making a new hood. The flues are deeper than most and there are more of them so size for size I "think" I get a better boil rate.

I think he is sincere but he seems to have too much on his plate all the time to keep his commitments. I'm just getting cheesed off at the delays.

Frankly now I wish I had ordered a Leader.

[KenWP]

Seems to me he has to add a lip to the channel in order to have it higher then the drain.

[Brent]

Yup Ken I think that's what it needs. About 1" high and 12 feet of welding.

You just gotta say, OK I screwed up and now I'm gonna fix it.

I know he reads the here frequently. We'll see. Maybe taking this public will prod him into action. Maybe he'll be ticked off and I'll never hear from him again.

But it really burns. A few weeks ago he asked for a change on his web site and I did it in 15 minutes. Unpaid service. And this is what I get. GRRRRRR.

[JohnsSugarShack]

Brent, sorry to hear of your frustration. I'm the one that called you back in December to talk to you about your evaporator. I also talked to Patrick for about a half hour last December and he seemed to be a very sincere person, but he did tell me that he was a busy person. After discussing everything with my wife and going to Leaders open house I ended up ordering a Leader 2x6 with patriot (raised flue) pans, should have it some time this fall. Hope things work out soon.
John

[Brent]

Thanks for the comments John. I still think Patrick's rigs are more attractive.

You can't go wrong with the IBM of evaporators.

[Peteyp426]

Just got back from a drive to Vermont and a visit to the Leader factory. As its been said, they have a very nice operation with people to match.

I am looking for a 2x6 - not 4x6 as I had typed earlier- and wonder if any of you have any experience with the Patriot raised flue verses the American dropped flue style of pan. In the 2x6 the Patriot has a 4 section syrup pan which is only available in a 2x2 where the American syrup pan is only 3 sections but is available in 2x3, or a 2x30 with a 2x42 flue pan. Although the Patriot has a higher evap rate with the 2x4 flue pan is there any problem with a 2x2 syrup pan?

Also stopped at Lapierre to look at their offerings. From what I could see, the Leader pans and arch were better quality than the Lapierre.

Did not have time to get over to CDL.

Any information out there is appreciated as I need to pull the trigger pretty soon to take advantage of the spring sale prices. Thank you

If you are looking for a Dealer in ohio contact Karl Evans 330-583-2892 he I think is close to were u are at. He deals with Leader and Maple Pro. GREAT TO DEAL WITH

[johnallin]

Well, today after looking and lurking for 2 months, I orderd a Leader 2x6 with Patriot raised flue pans from Richards Maple in Chardon.

With a 2x4 flue pan and a 2x2 4-compartment syrup pan I am excited as h*** about next season. Looked at lots of different rigs and I always came back to Leader due to the service from both them and Richards I have received so far with the half pint.

Looks like next season I'll have to learn how to run this thing. Me thinks it's going to be a bit different than the ol' single-flat pan Half Pint but should not use much more wood. Here's hoping I don't regret the move up knowing the great fun I had with the old rig.

Thanks to all of you who took the time to answer my questions and your input. This is a great site.
John Allin

[twobears1224]

i bought a fixer upper arch it was a 4x16 and i,am thinking about redoing it as a 4x12.i,de like to get a set of stainless pans for it.i,am thinking crossflow syrup pans and a raised flue.
it did came with a english tin front pan but it,s sat around and gotten rusty it looks like it was hardly used tho.is it possiable to get one cleaned up and retinned/plated ??
does anybody have a idea what it would cost for a new set of cross flows and a stainlees raised flue pan in 4x12??
i,ve been keeping a eye on bascoms used pans but theres no 4 foot pans of any kind listed.

delbert

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Delbert,
You can call Bascom's. They often have stuff come in that never hits the listings because some one is on the "list". I am thinking cross flow for my 4x12. Price quote right now is around 1000 for each pan so with 3 pans so I can switch them on and off is 3 grand (round numbers). A new reverse flow is around 2 grand.
Doug

[twobears1224]

DOUG:thanks for the info. my dad redid his old 5x16 small brothers arch into a 5x14 with all stainless pans and cross flow syrup pans it boils up to 50 gallons a hour more now.it used to be a bear to boil with now it,s easy.
we really like the cross flow pans they boil so much better and it,s a really steady boil they seem to recover much quicker after you fire up.
i,am in no hurry to redo the arch i bought so i,ve just been looking around for new pans.bascoms has a buuch of five foot syrup pans just no four footers right now.once i get serious about redoing it i,ll get in touch with them if i haven,t found some by then.

delbert