Tubing questions

[ibby458]

I've finally leased a 1000 tap bush. I'm planning on putting in a vacuum tubing system, after I spend all summer cutting out the dead wood and thinning it out.

I've figured out most of what I want to do, but I'm stuck on one item. I'm going to be pumping the sap up to the road with an 8 roller pump (24 GPM, 300 psi). It'll start pumping as soon as I start the Diesel powered vacuum pump. How fast could I expect 1000 taps to run (gpm), and what size intermediate storage tank should I have in the vacuum house? If 1000 taps on vac can run out at 50 gpm, I'll need a bigger tank to dump into and pump out of.

How much sap could a person reasonably expect from a 1000 tap bush on vacuum. I know it'll vary a lot, but how much roadside storage should I plan for with once/day pickup?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Ibby,
My experience is there is never enough storage. I think with once a day pickup you will need at least 2 gal. per tap storage. Will the line from the first tank to the second be drainable so it remains ice free? I have to plan primary storage so that it will hold every thing that runs until my pump lines thaw. On an 850 tap line, my primary tanks were400 gallons. This was adequate once the pump started. There were times that it was running faster than it was pumping but the tank was big enough to hold the excess until the flow slowed.
Hope this helps.
Doug

[maplecrest]

one thing i learned this season is even if you think you have enough storeage. mine was 1 gallon per tap. never enough. i had one run and got 2.5 gals per tap in 8 hours.three tmes my storage and almost over run the r/o. the thing is to start boiling a soon as possible to stay ahead of the sap as it comes in not to store it and boil later. that is when you run into trouble of never keeping up.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im with Thompsons and maplecrest Storage storage storage. Depending how much help and how far your from the sugar bush. we taped all 1125 trees in about 1 day and was not ready for the onslaught of sap that overwelmed the system.
This year we had all the tanks full and the sap hauler was full and the oil gun on the evaporator wouldnt fire. WHAT THE &*$%^%#@ check the filter, pull the nozzel, call Roger. WE never did catch up for a week. We had every possible thing that would hold sap called into service and the tanks were still running over. You need to plan for the big one and the possibility that things will go haywire.
With the tanks running over most everyday and the time it took to run to the bush pump the sap run back and cook I was frazzeled and that led to me screwing up the most important step in the whole process running the cooker.

[802maple]

I have always recommended 3 gallons of storage for every tap. A good rule of thumb in a heavy run, with todays high vacuum systems is about a 1/3 a gallon of sap per tap per hour for the first 8 hours and then they will usually slow down even though it doesn't appear to be because everything you have is running over and you are wondering what to do with it. I always say plan on the big run and you will be alright with everything else.

[ibby458]

I guess I'm in the ballpark. I've got a 360 gallon SS tank for the releaser to dump into. That should be fine. My transfer line to the roadside storage tanks will be light blue 30P, with black plastic in the shadier areas, sloped to drain, with a drain valve that will open when the vacuum pump shuts off. There will also be a small recirculation line that will be opened when the tank gets low so the pump won't run dry.

Originally, my thought was to use 300 gallon cage tanks in a building for storage. I was thinking 8 of them = 2400 gallons of storage. I should probably make the building big enough for a few more if needed.

My diesel for the vacuum and transfer pumps will be manually started each morning (By my Amish partner), but I was planning to put a thermostat connected to the shut off switch on the north side of the building. What temp should I set it for? I'm thinking maybe 28 degrees would be about right. There will also be a pressure switch on the discharge line of the pump to shut the engine down if the pressure in the transfer line gets to 100 psi. Don't want the pump to blow the lines apart in case of a frozen spot or blockage.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Ibby,
Try to get some storage other than the cage tanks. They are difficult to keep clean. I know, am trying to replace about 10 of them right now.
Doug

[ibby458]

We have 3 cage tanks now that we use as transport tanks. If they start out squeeky clean and peroxided, keep them empty and dry when not in use, and rinse after every load, they aren't bad.

Thinking about it, doing the same thing to storage tanks would be a lot harder. Maybe I can get a couple extra and take a couple out of service every day for cleaning. In an insulated, windowless building they might not crud up so fast. I do know it's the only afordable option I've come up with so far.

[ibby458]

Well, that lease fell thru. The owner wouldn't sign a legal lease, and started hemming and hawing about how many I could put tubing on. (He didn't want the woods blocked)

But - I'm almost done buying the bush next door. Around 1000 taps right now, with probably another 1000 in 5-10 years as I get it thinned and cleaned out. I had to pay a LOT more than it was worth, but I can now pump the sap right to the sugarhouse. Unfortunately, this bush is all spread out and not sloped as well. It'll take a lot more mainline, and two releasers and vacuum pumps, but it's doable on a long term basis.

This year, I'll be doing mini gravity systems into barells and small tanks (Totes?) mostly due to time factor. THe seller is dragging her heels on closing, so it may be Feb. before I can string tubing. I'll need to be able to take it down for thinning operations, too.

I've got a lead on a bunch of plastic 55 gal. barrels that held food grade peroxide. I'm thinking to adapt a star fitting into one bung, cut a hole big enough for my submersible pump in the center, and cover the hole with something. Any suggestions?

[Haynes Forest Products]

I started to say dont dont ruin the drums buy cutting the tops off BUT you need to be able to scrub them out quick and easy every few days. I would cut the drum top off so it could be hinged by leving a small 3" section of the drum intact or go with a gate hinge. Make it race ready so you can pull up throw the thing open and start sucking. Put a rope on it so it doesnt fall over and streaching the line. If you get the right type of drum they have fork lift rings in them see if you can cut below the ring and see if it will then fit back over the drum like a lid. When the sap starts flowing last thing you need to be doing is rolling drums around the woods to clean it.

[ibby458]

I hadn't considered mid-season cleaning, but that's an important thing. My latest mind-fart is to build a cradle, and lay the drum on it's side, cutting the hole on the side. (Which will be up when laying down) That'll make them lower with better slope from the taps. If I get a few extras, I can cut oversized covers out of the sides and install a hinge. The star fitting could go on a quick connect, so dirty barrls could be swapped out and clean back in
the sugarhouse.

In most cases, tubing will be coming from several directions, so if the tubing is equally tight, the barrel should be stationary.

[Littlesap]

Ibby, what kind of submersible pump are you using and how many gph do you get? I am getting pump this year and hadn't thought about a submersible.

[ibby458]

I got a couple submersible pumps I use for sap. The best one is a 1/2 hp from Wal-mart. It was pretty cheap (Like around $50), but it pumps FAST. You gotta use a 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 discharge hose if you want speed. Using the garden hose adapter slows it to a crawl. Forget the corrugated sump pump hose. Impossible to clean, plus it pops a leak everytime you look at it. I used 1-1/4 reinforced tygon tubing from Lowes. Works good, cleanable (Bottle brush on a electrical fish tape) and not too expensive.

My wife had a pretty good idea. She pointed out that our new polaris ranger could drive right up to virtually every tree. It's the Looong trip back to the sugarhouse that takes time. She suggested sticking with buckets again, but install a dump station in the middle of the woods, and pump it to the house. Since I already got the pumps and 1000+ feet of 1' mainline, it'll cost us nothing. I think that might be what we do.

[ibby458]

It's official. We signed the papers Friday and paid out $52,000 for 52 acres next door. Best hunting, sugar bush and wood lot in the northeast. Spent all day yesterday cleaning out the cabin that's there, putting up Posted Signs and chasing off trespassers.

Can't wait to start tapping the trees I've coveted for a quarter century!

[brookledge]

Ibby
Good for you.. How many taps do you estimate are there?
Keith

[3% Solution]

Ibby,
Haven't heard from you in a while, by the sounds everything is going good for you!
Do yourself a favor, I hate "No Trespassing" signs, gets some signs that say, "No trespassing Without Landowner Permission".
You will have the good guys knocking at your door and when they are on your 52 acres they will be watching out for it, cause it's like their own little place.
Just a thought!
Good luck with the expansion.
I lost out on a few trees this year also, landowners wife didn't want them tapped.
Two hours latter I got a better deal in the other direction!!!
Stay safe!

Dave

[Mark-NH]

Ibby,

Personally, I would go with the buckets until you are ready to set up your lines permanently. You save no work over buckets if you have to set up and take down lines. Also it will cost you money to set up the temporary system when you already have the buckets. One season of buckets will also be a great opportunity to get the lay of the land. Save you money and energy for next summer when you can put in you permanent tubing system.

[sapmaple]

Ibby congrats on your purchase! You might reconsider the posted signs if people have been hunting there for years and now they can't that seems to pi.. them off and things can happen to your tubing :confused: I like to keep people happy but if I'm working in the woods during hunting season Oh Well I think they understand and are thankful they can hunt there! I even have a guy that sends me gift to eat out at local restaurant and others give some deer meat. :)

[Fred Henderson]

Congradulation!!!!!!!!! Now all you need is a Forecat to get your fire wood out and to work in and at thinning your woods.

[lpakiz]

Well, if I read the post correctly, you paid $1000 per acre.
Here in Wisconsin, we call that a steal. $3000 is closer for wooded land here with fair trees. $2000 will hardly buy swamp land...

[Fred Henderson]

1K per acre is high priced around here. 6-8 hundred bucks is more the going price around here. Deals like 1K per makes everyone's taxes go up to unreasonable levels. This area has been for a very long time an economically depressed area, but if you want something bad enough you have to pay the price.

[ibby458]

Fred's right. Around here, that's an outrageous price for overgrown farmland with no saleable timber. I tried to get it at a more reasonable price, but no dice. That's what they paid for it 2 years ago, and they put in a good gravel driveway and had a well drilled.

A local old-timer told me this sugar bush won best syrup in new york at the state fair for 1939 and 1940. Well, not these trees - they were all cut off in the 70's. What I'll be tapping are the ones that were too small for firewood back then. Only one old big tree is left, and I'll be cutting it this summer. It's dying, takes up a quarter acre and is hollow enough for porcupines to den in.

Aye - buckets it is for another year or two. The dump station in the middle of the woods will save a lot of work and time. I'm looking for more 5 gallon buckets. I've got 400 now (and 300 metal buckets), but there's likely 1000 taps there. I don't want to use the metal buckets with the big spouts. I'll be buying a whole bunch of health spouts to put on my 4' pail drops. The trees will be stressed enough by the thinning I'll be doing. They don't need big holes in them on top of that.

Well - the property has been posted forever. My new signs are just to let the trespassers know about the ownership change. I will be patrolling it, too. All 5 of our sons hunt, as does myself and my wife. That's enough hunters on 52 acres. Chase off a few of the townies, and they'll get the message. Friends already know they can hunt there when we're not.

On that subject, my eldest pushed up a herd of 14 on the last day of muzzle loader season, including 3 bucks. All were at least a 6 point, with one HUGE one. It was just dusk and his gun misfired! They all vanished into the swirling snow, and hunting season was over for another year.

[Fred Henderson]

With no one really hunting that 52 acres it made a good place for those deer to hideout. All you need to do it have just one person arrested for trespass and the word will get out and spread like wide fire. I tryed being a nice guy and it didn't work but the law did. I still have a few problems from the die hards.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Amazing price difference in land, you couldn't touch 52 acres here for twice that much. Congrats and I know it is exciting and a great investment especially with the economic uncertainity, land it the best investment.

[howden86]

WOW Property next to our farms are listed at 10-19 thousand per acre.

HOWS THAT

[ibby458]

That's totally outrageous. How can anyone ever afford it? Until the downstate city slickers discovered this area, good tillable land could be had anywhere for $250-500 an acre, depending on location and parcel size. Less for woodland. Usually, you could buy it for the value of the standing timber.

Located another 177 5 gallon buckets with lids from the cake shop. She went up to $1.50 each on price, but that's still pretty good for food grade buckets, already washed.

[Fred Henderson]

I will be put my land in a trust so long after I am gone will will remain as I have groomed it. No selling off small lots or housing developments or junk yards will ever be on this land. Those are just a few things that will be in the trust.