vaccum from top or pump from bottom?

[Ridgeland Farm]

So my new sugar bush is spread out over 84 acres. Unfortunately my driveway is the only point of access passable by tractor or truck and the property slopes away from the driveway. my furthest taps from my gathering tank will be 1000-1500ft away in a straight line not actual travel distance. I will hopefully have 2000-2500 taps. So to my question... would I be better off vaccuming all taps to the tank at the top or vaccum to a tank at the bottom and then pump to a tank at the top? Lowest tap probably 50ft below top tank. thanks


Stefan

[Russell Lampron]

I have a similar set up on my 69 acres where my trees are all downhill from the sugar house. My tank and releaser are at a low spot 900' from the sugar house and I pump my sap up the hill from the tank. Vacuum will only lift sap 1 foot per inch of vacuum and you would have to build some sap ladders to lift it 50' to the sugar house.

I have my vacuum pump at the sugar house and run a pipe for the vacuum down the hill to the releaser. I am currently using a Honda WX10 1" pump to pump my sap and should have a bigger one to get the job done faster. My elevation change is about the same as yours at somewhere between 35 and 50 feet.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I agree with Russ, Vacuum to the bottom and then pump your sap back up to the sugar house. You can locate the vacuum pump in the sugar house and transfer the vacuum or use a gas powered vacuum pump at the location of your releaser. A gas powered Hydro-vac pump would provide vacuum and could pump the sap back up to the sugar house. There are several options for gas powered sap pumps. I use 2" water pumps and reduce them to 1" and pump as far as 3800 feet. The friction reduces the flow but the sap gets there!
Doug

[brookledge]

You are better off building the system to flow gravity to the lowest point and then pump it out.
One reason is if something happens to your vac pump or you lose electricity it will still flow by gravity.
If you have it designed using ladders etc. and you lose power or some other problem you are done.
Keith

[sapman]

I agree with everyone else. Sap ladders are a necessary evil. Wish I didn't need any.

Tim

[Haynes Forest Products]

Brookledge: I was under the same assumption that as soon as my vacuum pump quit running the sap would quit also. But I was wrong I have a 2 gallon gas tank on my beast vacuum pump and With the season I had I was running full speed ahead just to keep up with sap collecting and cooking and at times I would get to the woods late and the pump was off and the sap would be pushing thru the 12ft high ladder and into the releaser. When I would get there and find the pump off I would check the temp of the vacuum pump to determine how long it was of and one time it was cold and I still had 75 gallons push up the ladder.

[sapman]

Haynes, that's very intereesting! Is your ladder top lower than a lot of your taps? If so, I guess it would make sense to push through. But of course, when the tree is creating upwards of 20-30 psi on it's own, you can see why that could push it through, too.

My 11' ladder gets a lot higher than my taps in a swampy area, hence I've never yet seen sap come through without vacuum.

Tim

[brookledge]

One thing that is becoming more evident in testing is that it is best to keep the sap away from the tap as soon as it drips out. Definately once it enters the lateral line it is exposed to alot of bacteria. That is why we use sanitary adapters or taps that can be sanitized.
Now if you vac. is off and the sap has to push up the ladder all of the taps that are lower than the ladder are contaminated.
I have heard that there are test being done on taps with check valves in them.
And have been hearing from vaccuum experts to leave the vac. pump on at all times unless it is froze up good so that sap won't get back up to the tap hole once it drips out.
Keith

[Haynes Forest Products]

Sapman yes now that I think about it the way the bush is set up every thing runs down to a central point and that is the point that I cut the ladders in. When you stand at the releaser you look down at the ladders but the trees around the perimeter are higher than the tank and releaser so the sap is seeking its own level.

Brookledge I leave my vac on all night if its still running at 11:00 at night and I usually let the ice form and stop the sap flow. I have guys in the area that dont set the taps very hard and they say that they want a small amount of air to enter the tap around the hole to keep things moving. I dont subscribe to that way of thinking. 1) you need more CFMs and you lose vacuum 2) doesnt airborne bacteria enter that way and contaminate the hole and lines???
Why is it that they say that sap is sterile but yet its full of bacteria...........HELP

[dano2840]

I have a similar set up on my 69 acres where my trees are all downhill from the sugar house. My tank and releaser are at a low spot 900' from the sugar house and I pump my sap up the hill from the tank. Vacuum will only lift sap 1 foot per inch of vacuum and you would have to build some sap ladders to lift it 50' to the sugar house.

I have my vacuum pump at the sugar house and run a pipe for the vacuum down the hill to the releaser. I am currently using a Honda WX10 1" pump to pump my sap and should have a bigger one to get the job done faster. My elevation change is about the same as yours at somewhere between 35 and 50 feet.

no to steal a thread but how long does it take to pump sap up the hill for you? it takes me 45 - hr to pump 350 -400 gal but it is about 70 feet of verticle climb

[Jeff E]

Agee with all, vac to low area, pump up hill. My set up is small tanks (100 g)with electric float controlled pumps in the woods. If I loose power, I have a generator back up that will keep the pumps going.

Down side, 3000 feet of wire in the woods. Up side, the sap is all transfered and stored under cover in the sugar house.

One other downside with moving sap uphill , is that you have a solid column of sap in the line. So I have to go to the pump stations and drain the lines at the end of the day before a hard freeze. This is just part of the deal in keeping the sap fresh.

[Russell Lampron]

Dano it takes about 15 minutes per hundred gallons of sap to pump it. When I have alot of sap in the tank I will go check for vacuum leaks while it is pumping. That way I am getting 2 jobs done at the same time and can hear the pump change speed when the tank is empty.

[brookledge]

Haynes
sap in the tree is sterile. But as soon as the tree is tapped bacteria becomes an enemy. I'd say it's kinda like a cut on your hand keep it clean and it won't get infected. Once the sap leaves the tap hole you don't want it running back into that hole or it will bring bacteria into the tap hole sooner than it would on its own. That is my take on it.
Keith