info on vac system

[Peteyp426]

going to tap a new woods next year all 300 taps on big hill side. can u get vac systems for 300 taps or is their to much cost and not be worth looking into a vac. If so what is a good vac and releaser to look at? THANK U for any help

[Haynes Forest Products]

I have two Bernard Doubbles and Not one problem over a 3 week run. This year As a test I ran all 1125 trees on a 1 HP Gast 21 CFM vane pump and running 2 releasers I was maintaining 25HGs in the center of the bush.

[tuckermtn]

yes- you can get a vac system for 300 taps. we have one on 130 taps- but stay away from the lapereier hobby rleaser till they get the bugs worked out of the new design. Get one of the regular single releasers - 500 tap capacity. Your biggest expense will be a releaser- then I would reccomend a surge sp-11 vac pump with a 3/4 or 1 hp electric motor- or 5-7hp gas motor. With the relaser your probably looking at $1000-1200 for a set up w/ an electric motor (not inculding tubing). would guess your payback would be 3-4 years?

[Haynes Forest Products]

I think with the price of stainless way down farmers are not scrapping the good Vac tanks. I think with a year to hunt for a tank and a elec vane pump you could get into a system for under $500 and the payback in production would be 15 gallons of syrup at $3.00 a lb and that would be quick.

[Russell Lampron]

I had 200 taps on vacuum for a number of years. The releaser was the expensive part. I had a Delaval 73 rotary vane vacuum pump and it worked very well. I was able to get 1000 or more gallons of sap more out of my vacuum which was mostly red maples than I could out of a similar gravity system that I had which was mostly sugar maples.

I moved out of the gravity woods and ran more tubing in my own woods which is all on vacuum. I have upgraded to a Surge SP 22 pump and now have 550 taps which all but about 50 are reds. This year I passed last years total of sap collected by more than 3000 gallons. We got a frost last night and I am hoping to add to that total.

Add the vacuum. It will pay for itself sooner than you think.

[Amber Gold]

I got into vac. for about $1300 for the pump, releaser, extra tubing, and other misc. fittings. My trees ran for an additional week more than anybody else where I would've made an additional 10 gallons of syrup, never mind all the days during the season where I got runs when others didn't or when I got more per tap than anybody else. I think I paid for most of the vac. investment in the first year. I'm not sure if I'd run a woods without it.

[PerryW]

You guys are tempting me. The last freeze here was last tuesday so almost NO sap since thursday.

I am using 20 year old a 3/4" black plastic mainlines attached to 9 gauge wire that work great, looks like new and doesn't leak under the current gravity setup. There are no more than 200 taps on each 3/4" line. Do you think I would have to definitely replace it to run vacuum? (I know I will need to do work on the laterals reducing the # of taps down to less than 10)

Still hanging at 87 gallons and hoping for some some sap before the peepers.

[Haynes Forest Products]

PerryW: 200 taps on 3/4 is fine. I took over a woods that was a gravity style and it was all 1/2 lines and this year with all the info I got on the trader I went to the middle of the woods and cut the lines installed sap ladders and lifted 12 ft and had more sap out of that woods than ever before. I think the tap count was about 300 taps on vacuum 1/2 line. will it get changed yes because we are going to add alot of new lines and taps and we will go to 1" but I think its working great now.

[Peteyp426]

I think with the price of stainless way down farmers are not scrapping the good Vac tanks. I think with a year to hunt for a tank and a elec vane pump you could get into a system for under $500 and the payback in production would be 15 gallons of syrup at $3.00 a lb and that would be quick.

How would this system work? I am new to this

[Peteyp426]

I had 200 taps on vacuum for a number of years. The releaser was the expensive part. I had a Delaval 73 rotary vane vacuum pump and it worked very well. I was able to get 1000 or more gallons of sap more out of my vacuum which was mostly red maples than I could out of a similar gravity system that I had which was mostly sugar maples.

I moved out of the gravity woods and ran more tubing in my own woods which is all on vacuum. I have upgraded to a Surge SP 22 pump and now have 550 taps which all but about 50 are reds. This year I passed last years total of sap collected by more than 3000 gallons. We got a frost last night and I am hoping to add to that total.

Add the vacuum. It will pay for itself sooner than you think.
Who sells Delaval pumps? Who sells Surge pumps?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Look at a system 3 parts
1) The sugar bush as the supplier of liquid (sap)

2) The vacuum tank as the moisture trap bulk storage container

3) The vacuum pump that pulls the sap from the sugar bush towards the pump and the vacuum tank or releaser that keeps the sap from getting to the pump.


As the sap comes out of the bush in tubing and into the moisture trap the tank VOWALLA you have a vacuum system.

[Russell Lampron]

Perry it sounds like you could reuse your mainlines and you already know that your laterals and drops need attention. Get a vacuum system and you will get some sap. I got sap every day but one from March 10th until last Thurday night. It hasn't run since but I am hoping for it to start running again today.

Peteyp426 the Delaval and Surge pumps are old dairy pumps that were used to milk cows. Massport is another brand of rotary vane pump that is pretty popular. Look on Craigslist and ebay sometimes you can find them there. Also look in the classified section of this web site, you can find them there too.

[Peteyp426]

Look at a system 3 parts
1) The sugar bush as the supplier of liquid (sap)

2) The vacuum tank as the moisture trap bulk storage container

3) The vacuum pump that pulls the sap from the sugar bush towards the pump and the vacuum tank or releaser that keeps the sap from getting to the pump.


As the sap comes out of the bush in tubing and into the moisture trap the tank VOWALLA you have a vacuum system.
so the tank would basically take place of the releaser?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Yes. The problem with using a vacuum tank is you have to shut the vacuum to the tank down to empty the tank and you lose vac to all the sap lines. I tried to pump the tank when it was under vacuum thru the bottom drain but that didnt work at all. So your left with shut off vac to tank open and pump out and then reseal tank and restablish vacuum. Do not bring in main lines into the tank at the bottom it wont work well as tank fills it shuts down the vacuum to the lines.
Now a releaser will keep all lines under vacuum and dump sap into a open tank and allow you to pump it out.

[Peteyp426]

I think that I am starting to get the pic. What size surge or delaval pump should I go with, and can u put a gas motor insted of electric. Their is a delaval 76 for sale in a local farm news paper or is that too big.

[tuckermtn]

you could check ebay-or check the classifieds on here- most of the pumps are older- like from the 60's and 70's or so.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Pete: Not knowing what size (cfms) they are but a good tight closed system does not need a hugh pump to work. I sat and watched my releasers and with all the mainlines coming into the manifold I was able to open and shut the valves and see what effect lower vac had on sap flow in the lines. I wanted and was able to keep 25 HGs in the lines out in the woods and when I reduced the vacuum I could see the sap slow way down and almost stop in the lines.
High CFMs mean nothing in a good tight system. high CFMs low Vacuum does nothing to move sap down the lines. A box fan is a HIGH cfm low vacuum pump and we all know that wont work.
If you used a small vacuum pump and put it on a vacuum tank and hooked it up to you main lines and the guage read 25 HGs you have a good system

[Russell Lampron]

If the Delaval 76 is for sale at a good price buy it it will work. It will be a little large for 300 taps but it is better to have more cfm's than you need than it is to not have enough. It can be run with a gas motor too. If you can run it with electricity it will be easier than trying to keep a gas motor going. I have my pump at my sugar house and run a pipe to my releaser which is 900' away.

[Peteyp426]

The guy wants 1,800 for the delavalit is a 78 not a 76. I found a Surge sp-11 for $200, and a surge sp22 for $325. Is the sp-11 to small? How can I find out what the cfm is on these pumps? All they are is the heads no motors. Is that all u need is the heads or do u also need the tanks that the head mounts on? I want to THANK all the people that are helping me with this THANKS AGAIN!!!!!

[Russell Lampron]

Buy the both of the SP's they are piston pumps which is good. The Delaval is too big. For 300 taps you could use either one. Tuckermtn could tell you how many cfm's the SP 11 is. The SP 22 is 9.2 at 18". I have run my SP 22 at 23" for most of the season. You can't do that with a rotary vane pump without doing something to cool it off. The pump head is the important part. You can find electric or gas motors to run them. The tank is a big water seperator that sits off to the side on mine. You could make one of those out of an old water tank.

[Peteyp426]

I talked to a man that has been a surge dealer for 42years, and he told me that the sp11 is 11cfm @15'' and the sp22 is 22 cfm @15''. He said that 18'' is pushing those pumps to the max, and he told me that u can get more than 20'' but the pumps will not last. He said that he would n't go more than the 18'' and not to run it 24 7 if u are going to run 18'' He told me those pumps are around 40 years old

[Peteyp426]

Is 16-18'' of vac enough or should u have more than that? Today is the big day for me I find out if I am going to get the 7 - 10 year lease on a new woods around 300 - 350 taps Most of the trees are two taps I can only touch my fingers together on the backside of a few of the two tap trees. It has never been tapped before, and the trees have huge crowns. I will have around 1500 feet of main

[Haynes Forest Products]

The main question is do you have elec at the collection point if so look at a Gast dry vane pump will run 24-7 at 26HGs and if your using a releaser you can run well past freeze up and start them with a timer as the woods start to thaw best dang pump I ever put together for sap gathering.

[Peteyp426]

No I am going to set it up for a gas engine my friend is a honda dealer and I get stuff at cost, and I am going to get a bernard vertical extractor rated for 500 taps $900 in the maple pro book, and I am going to drive the 10 - 11 hours to their open house on the 24 of april. I guess they have 10 or 15% off sale and I am going to get 6 or 8 rolls of 5/16 line, 200 more taps, 2000' of main line, and other supplies. Figure buy things at the sale price any money saved is a good thing. I am going to try and get 18'' or 20'' of vac when I get my system togetherI hoe that will be enough

[Haynes Forest Products]

Sounds like a good plan but shoot for 26HGs of vacuum and settle for 22 dont go out and get a pump that wont be capable of 25. A good dairy pump DeLeval or Massport with the right set up will run 24-7 at 25HGs with a 7HP Honda. My Massport was pulling 25HGs at a little over idle with a 9HP briggs and would run 5 hrs on a tank of gas.
If you have the ability to get welding done you can put together a nice oil flood system that will run cool and recirculate the oil.

[Daren]

Do you have any pictures of your flood system for your massport? I sent a private message a while back but have not seen a reply. I have a massport senior that I would like to recirculate oil in rather than keep filling the dripper tank that is mounted above the pump.....can it be done?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Daren Yes you can flood that pump I did reply but I was just back in town I will see if the pics turned out in the camera and see if I can post them. If you have a dripper you can go with a bigger tank and if you have the type of oil system that I had you can continuos feed the bearings and the vanes from the intake side of the pump. Keep on me till I get the pictures to you

[tuckermtn]

the SP-11 I have has been running all season- sometimes for 4+ days straight- at no less than 21" hg- but more likely 23"- (these are #'s at the relaser- last tap is closer to 19+")

Not sure what the sp-11 is rated for at 22", but I have assumed somehwere in the 5 to 5.5 cfm range....so 300 taps should be no problem.

Parker has one of his sp-11's on a gas motor, but I can't remeber how big- I think its a 5hp?

Call mapleguys (or go to mapleguys.com) and see about thier early season discounts- may not have to drive all the way to maplepro to get the best price-

[Peteyp426]

:cry: I had my hopes up that I would get the lease on the woods it is the best one in my area. good maple stands are hard to find this stand of maples is AWSOME, but it is not going to happen the guy that has the property doesn't want to give me a lease on it. I walked that woods about 5 years ago a friend of mine had it and told me if I wanted to tap I could but I wasn't ready for that big step. but he sold it,and the guy that bought it told me that he got it just to have and has no planes for it, and when I originally talked to him and explained it all he was all for it, but he decided not to go with it. Very discuraged. I was wanting to count on this woods to help get up and running. I wanted to go to all the open house at maple pro and leader. don't know what to think