Need info on R.O.

[dano2840]

im thinking of getting an r o next year, but i have a few questions,
ive got a 3x8 and i had 600 taps this year and that was almost to much for it, i have been asked if i was interested in sugaring 40 acres of an old sugar bush with 18" trees and BIG tops, so ive got to get an ro or alot bigger rig, i would prefer to get an ro because i would cut less wood and it would be easier to deal with than a larger evaporator, but how many taps can a 3x8 handle with an ro, and how much can you concentrate your sap, 15% doesnt sound like alot but ive heard it takes out 70% of the water? does this cut boiling time in half? or more? and lets say i got a 1000 gals of sap, so when i run it through how much h2o would i get, (basically how big of a tank for the water would i need to run back through the thing when im done) and in 1000 gal of raw sap how many gals of concentrated sap would i get? i was thinking of getting at least a 200gph rig because when i get home from school, and get gathered i want to start boiling, and i usually am ready to boil by 5pm but if i start the ro up at 200 gph would it supply enough concentrated sap to run my 3x8 per hour? i would be ro ing while i was boiling, i gues i need to know how big of tanks i would need for water and concentrate, i havent looked at this new sugar woods but 40 acres is alot of land, i know i wont get even half of it set up by next year, but how big of an ro do i need , and tanks etc, would i need to get a bigger evaporator like a 4x12 and an ro?,
just need some specs and stuff, i prettymuch know how one works but still kinda unclear about it, i know sap get forced through the membranes and extrudes water, then some how you run the water back through to clean it, and then through it away, and that it has to be in a heated room

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Dano,
You just made that money and now you want to spend it? Kidding aside, an RO will be a good investment. I'd consider a 500 or 600 gallon/hr one to go with your rig. Will sap be at the sugar house before you get home from school? If so perhaps someone else could start the RO before you get there and be recirculating the sap and raising the % sugar. You will save big time on wood and boiling time. If you concentrate from 2% to 8%, you eliminate 75% of the water. Raise that to 12 % and you are around 85 % eliminated. Good luck and go through all the RO posts on here. Russel really knows his stuff about RO's and so does 802 maple. PM them and get their advice.

[michiganfarmer]

Im gonna buy one too in a couple years. I need to read up

[Jeff E]

Heres how I thought it through last year.

My rig does about 100 gph. My RO takes about 500 GPH and I set my flow rates to 2.0 GPH for concentrate, and the permiate (water) comes out at 6.0 GPH. The concentrate is typically around 10% sugar.

At this rate, my rig keeps up with the RO, and my net processing rate is 500 GPH. I am drawing of a gallon of syrup about every 4 minutes.

With a 3x8, you can adjust the flow rate to slow down or recirculate and get your concentration higher to match the rate your rig can handle it.

I agree, I would go with a 500 or 600 gph machine.

[sapman]

My few-year old machine was rated for 500 new. The membrane is still in good shape, but concentrating to what I want, and with cold sap, I realistically only get 350-420gph usually. This does not give enough to keep up with my evap., which does about 100-110 gph. So I usually start concentrating a few hours ahead.

Moral of the story is, I wish I had a bigger RO now.

Tim

[caseyssugarshack93]

it all depends on how many taps you are going to have and how much time u have if you want to start boiloing right after school and to keep up with ur 3x8 you would want a bigger r/o to get it conentrated and if u have to recirlate that take more time to get a higher percentage so bigger the better really,. i found that out this year and my seasons not even done yet

[dano2840]

I will have no time, i will get home from school collect and have the sap there by 5 next year probably by 6 with the new taps, my rig does about 65 -75 gal/hr, and the main reason i want an ro is to CUT THE TIME WAY DOWN, as it is this year my rig was about maxed out w/ the 600 taps i had, i had 5 days where i got alot of sap every day between 500-900 gal each day and i boiled till 12:30 or 1 each night and would get rid of 400 or so gals of sap, and that wasnt even a Good run i never had a good run this year because weather has been so screwy, but i need to cut the time down, so should i get a like a 1000 gal/hr ro? my feed tank is 1100 gals, so can store the concentrate, but i maybe running 1100 taps or more this year, if i can meet with the land owner and get some thing worked out, i walked the woods yestarday and i am willing to sugar it, there is 700+ up there, but it sounds like i should just get a bigger rig because i dont have the time to have the ro going, but how much does it cut down on boiling time? like if i have 1500 gal, and i went to 8% like what was said, it rids 70% water, does that mean 70% less evaporation time? its all about time in my case

[Jeff E]

RO = time savings.

The % reduction of sap is a real good indicator of time saved. You also draw off a lot faster, which speeds things up as well.

I am it the same boat, Dan. Saturday was a good example. 2000 gallons of sap. My rig does 100 gph. Straight evaporation says that means 20 hours of fireing. (lots of time cutting wood not figured in here, but it should be)

I ran the RO for 2 hours before I started a fire, recirculating the sap back into the tanks. Took out 1000 gallons of water.

I then started the fire and ran the sap through the RO again to my feed tank. This took another 75% of the water out, reducing my sap total to 250 gallons.
Wtih warm up time of the evaporator, I processed in 3 hours. Once things were going, this meant draw off rate of about a gallon every 3 or 4 minutes. Can you say filter fast?

RO = time!

[caseyssugarshack93]

R/o the way to go just get the right size if u plan on having over 1000 on vac or somthing id go with a 600gph

[dano2840]

wait so you had 1750 gal of water left? When your done ro ing dont you have to run all that back through to clean it out or some thing? so you need to have like a 2000 gal tank just for the water? i know how an ro works ( sap through membrane etc) but how do you run the thing, its new technology to me so im very werry to use some thing i know nothing about, so tell me what how do you run one? what do you do at the end of the season? tell me about these membranes ive heard theyre picky or some thing i gues i just need to know more about it

[dano2840]

do you have to keep it heated in the winter before sugaring season when there isnt any sap in it?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Dano
Keep the membrane in its storage container in the house. Make sure the rest of the RO is completely drained of liquid.

[Jeff E]

of the permiate (water), I save 500 gallons in a tank for cleaning, rinsing. The rest goes back into the woods.

Thats all that is needed for the CDL 600 gph machine.

Drain and keep from freezing is my goal.

[markcasper]

Jeff, How are you getting rid of 500 gallons of water per hour? I am not able and we have the same machine. You'd have to be getting a premate flow rate od over 8 GPM. I am only running around 375 PSI though. I have noticed that my permeate flow drops after a half hour or so. Am I doing something wrong?

I am kind of teed off that there was not a ph tester with it. My wife gets blank looks from the stores in town when asking for something that goes to ph of 11. Noone knows of anything that high.

I have been just winging it with the soap, using it sparingly. I was told too much is worse than not enough by another syrupmaker.

[maplwrks]

Mark---Get some litmus papers to test you wash water

[Jeff E]

processing rate of my RO varys, depending on sap temp and other factors.

I run mine at 400-425 psi. My concentrate flow rate is usually between 1.5 and 2.0 gpm, depending on how fast my evaporator is going.

When I first fire it up, the permiate flow rate is high, around 10 gpm. It then settles down to 6 or 7 after an hour, and after 3 hours it is usually steady at 6, for a combined flow of 8 gpm, or 480 per hour. I have had it drop to 1.5 and 5, for a rate of 390 gph. I have then done a quick rinse, and brought it back to closer to 500 gph.

I agree, finding test strips that go over 8.4 is near impossible around here in local shops. On line I am sure you can find what is needed though. I bought a digital meter to make it easy. It wasn't, as the meter was faulty. I have a replacement on the way.

I remember a leader tech telling me their 500 gph was the same as other 600 gph, as the actual performance of each usually about 450 to 500 gph. I think he was right.

[yarg]

Try to get the paper with ph specific range on the caustic(basic) scale...8-13 for example...Its more accurate.

[Russell Lampron]

Mark I wish I could go out there and work with you on running your RO. I'm sure we could find the way to get some permeate flow out of it. I get the best flow for the longest time out of my Lapierre 150 by cranking out my concentrate flow so that it about maxed out. With my machine that is between 4 and 5 gallons per minute. I then adjust my high pressure to 300psi. At that flow rate and pressure I get 2.5 gallons per minute of permeate flow. It gradually drops down to 1.75 gallons per minute as I recirculate the concentrate back to my storage tank. All I am interested in is removing water. When I have 5 or 600 gallons of sap to work with I can get rid of about 250 gallons of water in about 2 hours. I think that's pretty good for a 150. I bet we could do a lot more with your machine.

[yarg]

Sounds to me that since he was unable to measure his ph he was conservitve with the soap (for good reason) but probably does not have a clean membrane..thus his flows will be redused

[Russell Lampron]

He would only need about 2 to 4oz of RO soap per wash tank full. The tank on his machine is bigger than mine so he would need a little more than me but I only use 2oz and fill my tank about 3/4 full. The test strips from my furnace and my digital meter both show that it is at 11% with that mix.

[markcasper]

Thanks all for your comments. I have written down notes from Garth and he said you should be running 325-375 psi. My question is why would anyone run higher if it will shorten the membrane life alot shorter? In regards to the soap, he said put a spoonful of soap when you start, and another when the temp reaches 20C while washing.

Yesterday I did just that and when it was finished washing the wash water was kind of yellowish. Does that tell anybody anything??? ??? ???

Don't get me wrong, I am, very happy with it. Its obvious my flow rates would go up if I turned the pressure up.

I noticed yesterday after recirculating that the turbine pump motor started making a weird loud buzzing sound that I hadn;t heard before. I checked the suagr$ when doing the final process and it was 17% heading to the evap. feed tank. I never noticed the weird noise when concentrating at lower rates. It seemed to do if concentrating to higher levels, thats when it started.

I noticed a wet streak coming down from the bottom of the membrane housing. Kind of where the SS shell meets up with the white plastic thing on the bottom of membrane housing, but on top of the recirculater motor housing. Anything suspicious here??? Thanks for all of your help!

[Russell Lampron]

Mark 17% that must have been fun to boil. It sounds like you might have a leaking o ring on the bottom of your rmebrane housing. Is this getting on the pump shaft and causing the noise?

[Jeff E]

Mark, you should call Pete Roth to come out and check out the leak. I don't think you want anything to do with a new RO tower leaking.

When I wash, the color of the water is clear. The rinse phase prior to filling the tank and adding soap should remove all the sap from the system.

Is your pump pressure staying around 40 psi? Noises are tough to judge, but psi is hard fact. If you have clean prefilters, and recirc pump is doing 40+ psi, I wouldnt worry about it. I would run it for Pete to here is he is there though, and let him listen to it.

Pete told me to run at 400 psi on the high pressure side of the membrane. As did the tech from CDL. I would say push your pressure up there and get your flow rates going.

I moderate my concentrate flow rate to maximize the concentration. I have settled on boiling 10 to 12% conc for the rest of the year. The hyper concentrate that I have done (15+%) really creates some serious sugar sand in the pans. I want to avoid that.

Also, on my set up, running that rich of concentrate make boiling time very hectic. Between feeding the fire, monitoring the RO, filtering, cleaning the filter, bottling some, bulking some, the output of 3 minutes per gallon really wore me out. Fun, but a bit to much for me after midnight.