RO and affect on syrup taste

[Mr Bill]

I'm now wondering... I see a possible way in which RO *Might* affect the taste for some people's syrup and not affect other people's syrup.


Here's the idea. In addition to the sugars in the sap, there are also various salts and minerals. When salts are dissolved in water, the atoms of the molecules actually come apart and float as separate ions in the solution. For example table salt is sodium chloride but in water it becomes a sodiuk ion floating around and a chlorine ion floating around. These ions are then very small and this is why desalinating water is not a simple task. Sugar molecules are much larger and don't break apart into ions when dissolved in water.

Therefore, a range of RO membrane sizes may be used to concentrate the sap. A larger pore membrane would probably work a bit faster but in addition to passing water to the permeate, some salts and minerals may pass through as well. I don't know but speculate that this syrup *could* have a slightly different taste. Membranes that are closer to what are used for desalinating water would not pass these salts and minerals and retain those in the concentrate the same as evaporation. It would seem this syrup would likely taste the same as non-RO'ed sap providing the sugars carmelize, invert and whatever else they do during boiling the same between both saps.

To get a handle on this, lets compare membrane elements and see if we note a pattern. We'll need lots of people to reply to have enough data to make any meaningful determination. Where is what we need.
1. What make and model of membrane do you use in your RO.
2. Do you or your friends, customers etc. think they taste a difference with your syrup when you make it with RO vs. when you make it without?

If you have specifications like the molecular weight cutoff for your RO membranes, great! If not, I'll try and find the specs from the model number and post them back here. Should we post this in another section to get a wider viewing and response?

Bill

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

post edited

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Probably the true answer will never be known exactly. Even with research, it is never perfect and it is in human hands. Personally, I think there would have to be a touch of difference since the whole process is changed and probably the mineral and sodium content of the sap is changed slightly. One thing you can't deny is that there is a ton of water that is never boiled and with it goes items that would normally be in the boiling sap.

Things that are different are never the same. :roll:

[syrupmaker]

Don't eat eggs there high in cholesterol! :(
Eat eggs they help the nervous system! :)
Don't eat red meat it builds up and plugs your arteries! :(
Eat red meat it helps build red blood cells! :)
Don't drink milk it causes cancer in laboratory animals! :(
Drink milk it builds strong teeth and bones! :D

BLAW BLAW BLAW BLAW :roll:

When there is a difference of oppinion the only option is to get a grant from the feds and come up with some off the wall high fulluttent (?) answer so that they don't think that there money was wasted away. :twisted: Give up some of that grant money and let a group of us traders figure it out from there! :wink:

Has there ever been a serious study done as far as the chemical or physical characteristics of both types of syrups. :idea: Or is it my taste buds VS your tastebuds? Or is it (My neighbor said that the other guy down the road is messing up his syrup by putting it through an RO, I tried it and it tastes different.) :roll:

some need a band wagon , others need a tractor :?: :?: :?: :?:
Rick

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

post edited

[mapleman3]

:lol: :lol: some need a band wagon , others need a tractor

TOO FUNNY RICK

wondering where you come up with this stuff???

[Mr Bill]

Maybe I do need a tractor.

The arguements/statements that RO affects the taste vs RO does not affect the taste are pretty much meaningless if the KIND OF RO MEMBRANE is not specified and examined as an integral part of the debate. Consequently, many of the comments so far have not been particulary helpful for me. (Thank you Chuck, you've helped me a lot)

I will order the UVM paper. It was written in 1982 and RO technology has changed a fair amount in the past 22 years, so I am certainly curious if it addresses the fundamental question that I have promulgated about differing membranes, not RO in general. Thanks.

[mapleman3]

I need a whole tractor trailer truck for all the info I absorb.. in this hobby/business one can never get enough info, and what you all post is great... and the diverse ideas is what makes the forum great, hopefully no one gets offended by some of the humor that goes along with some of the posts...we're all in this together,keep up the good work!!

as for the taste, I would love to do a blindfold taste test with different kinds of syrup, RO vs NON RO VT vs NH NY vs MA. etc etc. would be kinda fun

[themapleking]

NO NEED FOR A TASTE TEST.

NEW YORK SYRUP IS THE BEST TASTEING.

BUT YOU GUYS ALREADY KNEW THAT.

VERMONT HAS THE BEST MARKETING.

AND CANADIAN PRODUCERS CAN'T SELL THIERS FOR THE RIGHT PRICE.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

post edited

[mapleman3]

now that would be something to be able to tell the taste of vac vs no vac.. holy crap!!!

[Mr Bill]

Kevin,.
You do tickle my funny bone.

Thanks for the help everyone.

I just reread my last posting while peering down the list to see what was new on this thread and noted that it didn't come out quite the way I meant. Didn't mean to sound put off. Was just trying to bring the discussion back to more comment and observation on the differences between membranes.

Chuck indicated in the other thread we have going on RO that there was some Canadian folks that have their standards for "organic" syrup, whatever that is, the precludes the use of high flow nanofilter membranes but presumeably the smaller pore stuff is ok. Chuck was very happy with his NF-270 membranes and I value his observations. I'm curious how others have perceived the differences between small pore and large pore membranes. The suggestions to pursue what the research has been published are good and I'll do that.

[howdydoody]

Maybe we should ask George Bush???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You guys are amazing!!!!!!! If you want to know the difference in RO vs non RO go ask the Canadians!!!!!!! They all use RO, and probably every different membrane made. Maybe there's a reason they can't get a decent price for their product. Some times things should be done as they always were, and shortcuts left out of the equation. :( :( :(

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

post edited

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I don't have a problem with a RO myself and may even have one in the future but it is not real likely. It does make for some good debate on whether there truly is a difference or not. I doubt in a blind test anyone could tell the difference because syrup is just like snowflakes, no two are exactly the same and no two bottles of syrup from different producers taste 100% exactly the same.

Personally, I think there would have to be a tiny difference in the mineral content or maybe something else in the composition of the syrup, but it is so minscual that I don't think anyone in a blind taste could tell the difference. :D

The main thing we need to remember here on this topic or any other is everyone is entitled to what they think whether it be right or wrong and we can have fun with whatever is said. This is the most sensitive topic on here and just enjoy what everyone has to say. Regardless of who is right or wrong, there is no reason at all for any hard feelings. :D :D :wink:

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

The light is now shining!!!!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Kevin,

Thanks so much for all the pics and info you sent me. I got it today and glanced thru it, but I haven't had time to read it fully. Sure is interesting info! :D :D :D

Take care and have a merry Christmas! :D :D

[Russell Lampron]

Mr Bill

This my first season using an RO machine in my sugaring operation. I have a Lapierre Turbo 250 RO machine which has a NF90 4 inch membrane. It is a 150 gallon per hour machine. I boil with an Algier 2x6 wood fired raised flue evaporator. I haven't noticed any difference in the taste of my syrup and none of my customers have either. I am surprised that this topic hasn't drawn more response since it now sugaring season. Are there any other sugarers on this web site that are using an RO machine for the first time this year? I think it would be fun to get together with some of the other members of this web site to do a taste test.

Russ

[howden86]

I don't think it matter about a r-o if you are a good sugarmaker you will make good syrup irregardless if you use or don't use a r-o. When ever I hear people say "I had maple syrup and it was horrible" it was made without a r-o by a backyard person. So good maple producers who do things right make good syrup. To me it is that simple

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I agree 100% with that. You either have it or you don't and it doesn't matter what kind of equipment you are using! :D

[Maple Flats]

Amen to that. I know too that the syrup from the same producer from year to year and maybe even batch to batch has a slightly different taste, but I have rarely had any that wasn't good unless it was burnt or buddy. As for now I'm thinking as I grow I will add an RO and maybe even before I get a bigger evap.

[Mr Bill]

Mr Bill

I have a Lapierre Turbo 250 RO machine which has a NF90 4 inch membrane.

I haven't noticed any difference in the taste of my syrup and none of my customers have either.

Russ

Thanks Russ. You addressed the original question.

Yes, a taste test would be fun, to compare all three kinds of syrup.

Bill

[Mike]

Steve from Algiers told me you make more light syrup with a RO...With the price of oil going up I may have to buy a RO and a bigger generator to run it.... :roll: