Sap Ladder

[SUGARSMITH]

I need to raise the slope of a mainline by about 10 feet. I figure a sap ladder is probably the best way to accomplish this. I am familiar with the term but know absolutely nothing about these. Can somebody tell me where some info on these might be, what is required, how they work on a vacumn system etc.

thanks

[mapleman3]

I'm going to do the same thing, as It was told to me, at the low part of your line where you want the ladder to be, install a star connector, then on the line thats 10' above it add a star to that on upside down, then connect them together with 5/16 tubing on each point of the star connector. seems simple enough I should be working on mine soon
Good luck

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[SUGARSMITH]

sort of lost on this one. When yoe say star adapter, are you referring to the screw in plastic piece that has multiple 5/16 fittings, if this is the case I am completely lost. If I want to pull sap up ten feet in the air and keep vacumn how will that work.
I was figuring on using a drum as a collector, 1-1/2 vacumn line in and out, a pickup line and finally a transfer pump to push it the 10 feet or so in the air I need to. Have I over engineered this ?

It would be great if there were an easier less expensive way to do this

[Parker]

Sugarsmith- Are you saying that you holding tank at the end of you mainline is 10 feet lower in elevation than your truck tank and you want to lift the sap from tank to tank OR at some point in you mainline because of topographic limitations a section of mainline ends 10 feet under your trunk mainline and you need to lift sap from lower mainline to higher mainline??

[SUGARSMITH]

The problem I have is that I can add about 1000 taps to vacumn with one releaser it I could raise the slope of my mainline by 10 feet. If I dont I will need an additional releaser at about 1000.00. Naturally I would like to avoid the later. It has nothing to do with tank to tank or tank to truck.

I figure a ladder was the best way to do this. From what I am reading, I think I am overthinking this but I am still at a loss as to what to do.

What I am gathering is to End the top mainline the required height above the lower. Use 2 elbows pointing to eachother and connect with mainlines together to continue vacumn. and add the star connectors and connect with the 5/16 mainlinethat with the excass vacumn will suck up the sap like a straw.

Is there anybody thet can fax me a diagram of the correct setup?
Would be greatly appreciated.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

I've taken the back burner Bigtime on posting things as i've got better things that i need to be doing-So if you send me your address in a PM i will get some free information off to you in a week or two-Next day service just came to a screeching halt the other day from me.A couple $ would expedite the service to next day in the mail letter.I'll photocopy the information if your interested?

Sugarsmith:

If you have 1000 taps that you want to bring into your releaser, you might have too many to make a sapladder practical. You should have 1 star in the top line and 1 in the bottom for each 25-30 taps. Any less will not efficenty transfer the vacuum from top line to bottom. Idealy the ratio should be even less. The only way that the two mainlines are connected is through the use of stars, those are what puts the vacuum onto the lower line. You might want to put in more than one line from the releaser to your lower woods, and break up the number of taps on each line, remember, vacuum works best on laterial lines with no more than 5-10 taps, and idealy no more than 5 taps. The same holds true with sapladders. There is a limit to vacuum's ability to preform work, and when you reach that point, you won't be real happy with the return. Waterloo/Small used to sell a gadget called a reverse slope releaser that was intended to do just what you want to do, but it's not listed in their new catalog. The whole idea was to let the sap drain by gravity/ or releaser, into a gathering tank and then this gadget would transfer it up the hill by vacuum. Don't know whether it worked or not. Hope this helps, certainly can't hurt.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Mr Bill]

One thing to note with a sap ladder is it will compromise the vacuum level you have on the lower mainline. If the sap is not flowing, you'll see similar vacuum levels on both lines, but when the lower line starts flowing, you'll usually see the lower line vacuum drop roughly 1 in-Hg for every foot of elevation difference between the two mainlines since the vacuum is used to lift the sap.

[saphead]

You may want to consider using an injection system that Dominion&Grim sell. It works just like a pulsator that's used on the vacuum systems while milking cows. It's powered by the vacuum and lets in air in short pulses. I saw one working @ Bascom's open house and was very impressed how the sap ladder performed with this device as opposed to without. They also claim it cools the sap as well. The pulse timing was so short that the vacuum recovered almost instantaniously and the sap took of like a rocket! Unfortunatlely vacuum operated milking parlor pulsators won't work ,they don't react well to a freeze,to bad they're cheap. D&G injectors $225 in the 2004 catalogue. The devices look to be fairly simple:diafram w/an attached rod and spring , a couple of valves and a line to the top side of the diafram with a metering valve. I looked at one closely at Maple Rama but I neglected to make any drawings.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

One thing I have learned from talking to Brad Gillian numerous times over the past couple of years is that he really seems to know what he is talking about. He seems to have a wealth of knowledge for someone his age.

[Parker]

I was looking thru the June 2003 Maple syrup Digest and in that there is an artical on the "2 pipe sap ladder" Basically says for up to 1000 taps have a single line out of the releaser going toward the bush, at the top of the hill split the line in 2 (1 1/4" lines) run them down the slope (although in the picture it is a vertical drop) one line extendes blow the other about a foot and has a trap or low spot in it then both lines go into your regular maine line,, say it works fine but you need to drain it befor it frezes,,,,I am sure I have not explained this well and will read this agine in the AM and update after I read the artical agine,,,,,,if needed

[mapleman3]

Ok, all the info above is pretty much what was said at the seminar on sap ladders,

18" of Vacuum at the ladder is a must.. no less or it won't work much
Max lift is 14' in most situations.
you can make multiple 4-5' ladders to work your way up the slope.

a "spider web type ladder" is good for a small amount of taps around 500 or less.

the double mainline type for larger amount of taps.

use of the air injection helps greatly, and increases your lift height...more than 14' up to 30' in some cases. It should be installed at the end of your mainline, it injects small surges of air at set intervals to help move the sap along, without it your ladder could get full of sap with out any air to help it along.

at the ladder you should instal a bypass so you can wash the mainlines and laterals without putting alot of pressure on the ladders.

the spider web ladder must be straight up, not sloped over .. that adds length and vac loss

75-90 taps per star fitting, so I have 100ish taps I will use 2 on the bottom mainline and 2 on the top line with 12 5/16" lines conecting them

now with a large amount of taps you should install a vac booster and 2 pipe system at top of ladder to releaser.. in otherwords once your ladder is installed and your mainline continues to your releaser, you should use a dry line above your wet line so you can keep the vacuum... the top dry line brings the air to the releaser which makes it easier for the sap to flow along the bottom wet line.

I know this is all hard to picture, I will post a few picks hopfully next weekend if I finish mine, I won't have a 2 pipe due to small amounts of taps. it will be the spider web design (6 way stars)

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

no that would be very much overkill... I should be fine.. I'll do 2 5ft lifts

[michaelh05478]

What does everyone use to check there lines for grade?? I did use one of those sight grade levelers.. It worked ok but I used a laser level the other day to check some lines and it does work a lot better.Easier to see the laser dot on a tree or a 8' 2x4......Does anyone else use a laser level???

[syrupmaker]

My brother does alot of excavating and drainage projects so we used his laser transit. You can look at a grade and say it's 6-7' but the laser will tell you just how wrong you are,it was more like 8-9 ft of fall.Definately gives you a better idea of how to lay out your main lines.

Rick

[forester1]

I plan on using my Suunto Clinometer, once the logger is done and I can get the lines up. It's a handy little tool that would work well for that. It does cost a lot, about $100, but I use it for my regular job too, for tree heights. If interested, you can buy one at Forestry Suppliers or Ben Meadows. Be sure to buy the % scale. You could read to about 1/2 percent and it is very accurate, especially for a small handheld tool about 2"x 3 1/3" and 1/2" thick.

[mapleman3]

I have finished 1 of my 2 sap ladders, I have posted pics on my personal album, it wasn't to hard to build, they will both be appx 5' lifts I will install a vacuum gage at the first lift to watch the vacuum, and to see how much loss I get from the releaser to the first lift. hopefully after all that I still have vacuum at the taps :? I will try to keep my vac pump cool enough to keep a constant 16-18" at the ladder(they recomend 18")


:!: I am working on the new web pages hopefully they will be ready before next month :!:

[murferd]

I looked at pictures,first time I ever saw a sap ladder.Just how does it work?
Why so many lines from top to bottom?WHat are the blue lines connected to?
I know alot of questions,might have a use if I can figure it out.We just use a milk system releaser will this work?

Thanks,
Murferd

[mapleman3]

Murfed. just read this post forum from it's begining... the whole idea is to move sap up to a higher mainline to get it back to your releaser. and your vacuum will do it for you.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

yes 18" it's running at the last tap and at pump.. but thats with not much run... time will tell, woill be great for me if it works out :lol: :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

I am thinking about using vacuum in the next few years, but my sugarhouse is about 25' higher in elevation that my lowest point in the woods.

I realize this is an easy question for you vacuum guys, but what's the max elevation that I can still use vacuum. I am somewhat familliar with sap ladders and having to do them 5 or 6 feet at a time.

My logic is the max vacuum that you can have is -1 atm, which is around 14.5 psi. If you consider that water head is about 5psi per 10' rise(?), the max I could lift and still get much vacuum is 20'?

Thanks!

Brian

[mapleman3]

they say with a air injector and a real good cooled pump you can lift 20', but you need a real steady vacuum

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brian,

If you don't go to vaccum, you can run all your taps to your lowest point and then pump the sap back to the sugarhouse with a gas pump. I have 1 tank that I pump aproximately 80' back up the hill. It is probably a 25' lift and my Tanaka will pump 140 gallons in probably about 9 or 10 minutes. When the tank on the back of the tractor is full, I unhook the quick connects and let the excess sap run back down into the tank. :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

Brandon,

That's exactly what I do now. Great minds think alike? :wink: :D :D

Basically, they are main lines hooked to high tensile fence wire with t's every so often so I can hook into them to pump to the tank.

I spent today trying to put these pump lines on an even grade so they don't freeze solid and keep me from pumping to the sugarhouse.

Brian

[mapleman3]

Brian, I used to pump to the sugarhouse about 120 feet, I used 1/2 black pipe, so everynight I would drain the line to keep from freezing, and the few gallons in the line I would let drain on the ground, it wasn't too much too worry about. I did the quick connect too. just don't make the mistake I did and have the line at the tank at the sugarhouse go into the tank too much, when you drain the line down the hill it could suck back from the upper tank by siphone.... I lost over 200 gallons that way.... I opened the pump line and left for the night 8O

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brian,

As long as all of the line has a 1 or 2 percent grade without any sags, it will drain itself!

Make sure you don't leave any place for ice in the lines. Kinda hard to drain when it is 20 degrees outside. :oops:

[maplehound]

I pump over 900' back to my sugar house. I have to pump up and over a hill. MY sugar house is actually only a couple feet higher than the tank but I have a big hill and a vally in between. I just go up as high as I can with my pump line and then slope it back to the sugar house. At the peak of the pipe I put in a T and the a one way relief valve. That way when I am done pumping it pops open and lets the sap drain both ways from there. Some goes back to the tank and some goes to the sugar house. When it is going to get real cold for several days I close a valve after the relief and let the whole line vacuume back to the woods. Just remeber the sugar house end needs to be open and out of the sap tank. :wink: Or it will all end up back at the woods.

[saphead]

I know some of the big boys, with remote power supplies, just add an air compressor into the mix.When the pump shuts off(float controlled) a solenoid valve opens just upstream of the pump check valve and a blast of air from the air tank blows out the line. If the compressor can't be located close, a good sized line could act as a tank for air. Just a thought.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Maplehound,

How much lift do you have on the line going over the hill, what size is you pump and how many gph can you pump??

[sweetwoodmaple]

You weren't asking me, but I'll post anyway. :wink:

I pump about 350 feet to a collection tank, then 250 ft up the hill (25' rise or so) to the sugar house.

I get about 22 gpm on the 200' section using my homelite pump. I am using 1" dia line.

Brian