looking for some history on copper pans

[michigan maple]

we are resurecting a soule 3x12 arch,it came with a copper flue pan,we have decided to use,i was wondering if anyone new any history on the copper pans g.soule used....the firebox end of the casting has ING EVAPORATOR in raised letters at the top,i wonder if this didnt stand for king evap. and the k somehow ground off...was king evap a model of soule?what era did they use copper pans?how long has soule been out of buisness?.there is no markings on pan......................also was fortunate enough to come across a small bros. air inducted piggy back unit for this unit but have not been able to find much info on net.....any helpfull hints on piggy back unit................thanx in advance......

[brookledge]

King originated from either Leader or GH Grimm not sure but I know there were King pans in there catalogs.
As for the copper, I believe they only made them by order. I don't think it was a stock item. english tin was the standard for years then stainless began making it's way into the industry.
Keith

[Flat47]

King is a Leader product, but originated elsewhere, I believe. Leader came to be from the merging of Vermont Evaporators and Soule. I pull out one of my old books tonight and get back to you.

[Clan Delaney]

Not sure on the history, but I know that those copper pans will conduct heat 25 times more efficiently than stainless steel. The only thing better would be silver, and if you had pans made out of silver, you'd be selling them and driving a new Mercedes! Take care of that copper!

[forester1]

I think all the companies would build copper pans if you wanted to pay the extra it cost. I remember catalogs in the 80's offering the option. The only thing is they probably have lead solder.

[forester1]

It would be nice to have pans made like revere ware. Stainless with a copper clad bottom for even heating. Then again, evaporators cost too much already.

[Flat47]

Okay, I pulled out my old "Maple Sugar Makers' Guide" from Leader from the mid '80s (although the pics and print look older, I got this from Ken Bascom around 1984).

It says Leader was founded in 1888 by William Burt who ran it until his death in 1955. The company moved to Burlington in 1964, just after a group bought the company in 1963. In '63/'64 the Soule Co., Inc. became available and the group bought them and moved all operations to St. Albans, VT. In 1972 the group bought the Vermont Evaporator Co., and moved them them to St. Albans, too.

The book goes on to show three different pan systems: The Leader Special (introduced in 1905), The King, and The Vermont. The big difference between the Leader and the King are where the cold sap enters the flue pan. On the Leader it flows to a float-controlled warming pan in the front/center of the drop flue pan. On the King, cold sap enters through an exterior float box at the rght/rear of the drop flue pan. The Vermont uses a 3 pan system where the syrup draw-off is in the middle of the rig.

Leader arches used to have a semi-script 'L' on each door.
Vermonts used to have a 'V' on each door.
Kings used to have a '$' on each (very cool, I must admit).

If I interpret it correctly, the King name came from Soule.

At the very end of the booklet are two quick bits on stainless and copper pan materials. Under copper reads, "The use of copper in the manufacture of evaporators dates back several years. Copper is of course a very good conductor of heat and the heat transfer properties of copper makes for a very good combination of Maple Sap evaporation." It goes on to say that copper pricing is "quite erratic and thus it is quite difficult to quote firm prices for any period of time. Reports from the Maple producers using copper units is very fevorable, and no one feels the extra investment was not well spent."

Hope it helps you. If nothing else, it's interesting to following the history of it all.

[troes30]

My father had copper pans when i was in high school. i remember we had just bought a brand new 6x10' leader back pan the year before we burnt out in 95'. we actuall tried digging it up this past summer when copper scrap was so high but couldnt find it. i didnt think copper was around very long but i could be mistaken. i remember it boiled great. not sure why they quit making them...was it something with the lead solder? maybe it was just cost, but i doubt it. anyway thats my input.

[Homestead Maple]

The Leader Evaporator Co. originated in Enosburg Falls, Vt. It was started in 1888 by the late William E. Burt.

The company moved to Burlington, Vt. in 1909, remaining at the same 100-102 Battery St. location until 1964.

One year later when the Geo. H. Soule Co., Inc. became available the Leader group purchased the Soule operation and all parts of both Leader and Soule were moved to St. Albans, Vt.

In April of 1972, this same group purchased the former Vermont Evaporator Co. of Ogdensburg, New York and the entire King operation was moved to St. Albans, Vt.

The Leader name is aptly used because they were the first company to make flue type evaporators.

(Quoted in some parts from a 1970's "Maple Sugar Makers' Guide" put out by Leader Evaporator Co. Inc.)

[Flat47]

In April of 1972, this same group purchased the former Vermont Evaporator Co. of Ogdensburg, New York and the entire King operation was moved to St. Albans, Vt.

(Quoted in some parts from a 1970's "Maple Sugar Makers' Guide" put out by Leader Evaporator Co. Inc.)

My copy doesn't mention "King" until the description of the pan systems.

[TapME]

S-142-032-36-36$144.73






S-142-032-36-48$181.84

these are copper sheets size and price from storm copper and sheet co. I tried to look up the stainless price for 301 in the same gauge but no one had prices on there stock. Just a little info into the talk. I could make a 36'' flue pan for 2 and half sheets. these are 20 gauge

[michigan maple]

thanks for the info from everyone,especially FLAT47...your info told me its a king evaporator and that its a king pan.......im really looking forward to useing this old girl this year......it does have the $ signs on tjhe door,weve redone the arch completely,scrubbed for days to make the copper look almost new,new hard maple ingraved handles...found a leader ss finish pan..and with the small bros piggy back,i just cant wait............again thanks for the info....

[Flat47]

Also noted in the booklet are some design changes made through the years.
In 1964 Leader pans were changed to use a flexible coupling between pans (whereas King used flexible since 1948). They also made King and Leader pans the same depth. This made Leader and King pans interchangable.

[Russell Lampron]

What year did leader buy out G H Grimm?

[Flat47]

Russ,
I'm no expert (I just read a lot), so maybe someone else can pinpoint it. I think it was around '95. Digging deeper into my box of old catalogs and books, the '95 Leader catalog makes mention of Leader and Grimm both using lead-free solder; Grimm since shortly after they purchased them. 1995 is the last GH Grimm catalog I have, but the '95 Leader catalog shows a combo Grimm/Leader logo inside the front cover. Also, didn't Bascoms have a big role in purchase of Grimm? I'm fairly certain Bruce is an investor (maybe shareholder?) in Leader.
Seems like the late '90s were a turbulent time. Waterloo and Small Brothers merged. Leader and GH Grimm. Then Waterloo/Small morphed into MaplePro. Wild times.

[Big maple]

We just sold our copper pans, they were king 40x12 6' syrup and 6' drop flue. Maufactured in 1946. They had flexable connectors between the pans and molasses valves at the draw offs and pan drain. They were awsome and I shoul have kept them but, we out grew them and I would rather they were in use than stacked in a barn until I die. Lemon juice and a scotch brite pad takes the tarnish off them really well after you rinse them back down they shine like a new penny. The boil in the flue pan is way more intense than the stainless pans. The copper was also easier to solder than the stainless. Just good stuff all around.

[dano2840]

[QUOTE=Flat47;62091]Okay, I pulled out my old "Maple Sugar Makers' Guide" from Leader from the mid '80s (although the pics and print look older, I got this from Ken Bascom around 1984).

It says Leader was founded in 1888 by William Burt who ran it until his death in 1955. The company moved to Burlington in 1964, just after a group bought the company in 1963. In '63/'64 the Soule Co., Inc. became available and the group bought them and moved all operations to St. Albans, VT. In 1972 the group bought the Vermont Evaporator Co., and moved them them to St. Albans, too.

The book goes on to show three different pan systems: The Leader Special (introduced in 1905), The King, and The Vermont. The big difference between the Leader and the King are where the cold sap enters the flue pan. On the Leader it flows to a float-controlled warming pan in the front/center of the drop flue pan. On the King, cold sap enters through an exterior float box at the rght/rear of the drop flue pan. The Vermont uses a 3 pan system where the syrup draw-off is in the middle of the rig.

Leader arches used to have a semi-script 'L' on each door.
Vermonts used to have a 'V' on each door.
Kings used to have a '$' on each (very cool, I must admit).

If I interpret it correctly, the King name came from Soule.





I have a 2x4 arch that says G.H. Soule on the top and has a $ on the door, does any one have a soule arch any more or am i just a special little boy????????

[Amber Gold]

Copper is a reactive metal. Is there any concern with the sap or syrup reacting with the metal? Isn't sap acidic?

You'd think even with the higher cost and fluctuations that the increased evaporation rate with copper would more than pay for those added costs in a reasonable time...especially if you're getting over 50 years on a set of pans.

[TapME]

I tried to get the price for the same gauge metal sheets in copper and stainless, got the copper prices fine but not the stainless. anybody have the price for 20 gauge stainless 3x4 sheet?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I can't imagine there would be much problem with sap being acidic unless it is allowed to ferment.

[Sugarmaker]

Falt 47 and all,
I also have a King Soule 3 x 12 cut down to a 3 x 10 the pans were English tin but were junk a long time ago:)
I just ahppened to find a set of Stainless soldered pans that closely match the King style. the float box is on the right exterior of the rear pan.

Copper flue pan should work well and if clean should be a show piece. Note that it probably has older type solder so don't let the sweet set in in for more than overnight. and don't scrub the solder, or use strong cleaning acids.

Oh yea we have the doors with the dollar signs and when we have the Taste and Tour someone always asks me what the $ signs are for? I pull out my wallet, open the door and pretend to throw the wallet into the fire box! while jokingly telling them that the is the end that the money goes in! Usually gets a good laugh:) but its not funny, its true:)

Chris

[Flat47]

I see Bascoms has a copper syrup pan for sale. It's a King...6'x6' for $1200 (was new in '87)...

[forester1]

I see Leader changed the pipes in their steamaways from copper to stainless. I wonder if they lost some of their efficiency doing that?

[DS Maple]

I noticed that as well, but supposedly the new ones are more efficient than those with copper, so there must be something else to it. The new Bascom's catalog says something about the new models having extra steam pipes.

[mapleack]

They probably eliminated copper in the steam aways so everything could be welded instead of soldering the copper in.

[Russell Lampron]

It is probably hard to find some that is good with soldering these days. I think finding someone that can weld would be much easier.