Need advice on oil versus wood arch

[Buckeye mapler]

I have mixed feelings on both. Is there a certain level of taps you should be at before you use oil, or does oil seem to be more efficient at all stages? I am confused as to which way to go at this point. I have leaned towards oil, but recently spoke with someone that had me second guessing. Any advise will be greatly appreciated. I am looking to purchase my evaporator most likely after this sugaring season since I anticipate many will go up for sale.

[Russell Lampron]

One of the biggest deciding factors is the cost of the oil compared to wood. Do you have a source of free wood and do you have the time to devote to harvesting it and getting it to the sugar house? If you have to buy the wood it is still more labor intensive than oil. You need to decide which way will work best for you. I have seen oil fired 2x4 evaporators and I have also seen 6x16 wood fired evaporators. The size of the evaporator isn't the deciding factor.

[Clan Delaney]

Will be using a wood fired arch for the first time this season, so this isn't firsthand, but here's what I've absorbed...

Like Russell said, wood is more labor intensive, even if it's free. I don't mind the work, and I figure I have all year to find and collect wood.

Wood takes time to start up and shut down. If you needed to shut down in a hurry, with oil you just flip a switch. Wood... unless that switch is hooked to a sprinkler system in the firebox, no dice. :)

I can't speak to the straight cost of wood v. oil (but there a many here who can), I still have a quote stuck in my head from my association meeting this past weekend... "Wood? If you're going to chop wood, fine. Then sell it and buy oil!"

I might go to oil as I expand, but for now it's wood. Check out some of the older post I linked below. Lots of good info there.

buying wood vs. buying fuel oil (http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=4801&highlight=wood+oil)
Converting wood to oil (http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=2972&highlight=wood+oil)
how many cords of wood has everyone gone through (http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=3175&highlight=wood+oil)
wood fire/oil fire (http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=2170&highlight=wood+oil)
Wood? Oil? Propane? (http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=809&highlight=wood+oil)

[Buckeye mapler]

thanks for the links clan. i knew this discussion had taken place a few times. i will skim through these probably going back and forth like a tennis ball on what i want to do. my thought/situation is this:

wood: does not burn as intense consistantly and btu's vary depending on type of wood.
isn't exactly free when considering gas/oil for chain saw, transport from woods to sugar house and for me construction of an area to keep the wood dry.
with thinning and management of woods it is provided, but is it adequately provided?

oil: burns at higher btu's and archs can be increased in efficiency with money spent.
cost more, but how much more? delivery, product, oil burner.
storage tanks can be purchased used for little compared to wood storage.
can be refined from your own back yard if your name is JED.

for me i think oil works out better. i will be tapping trees on land that is not mine so wood supply is not an option from that source, however, storms create tree damage and many people would be willing to give up the wood if i removed it. i do not have an area to keep wood dry. i would have the time to cut wood though. i am not for or against either and that is why i am asking opinions here, so i can weigh the options and make a good choice. i know that a wood fired arch can be converted to oil but not vice versa, but i question the efficiency of those compared to an arch that is designed for oil from the start.

[Amber Gold]

You can also increase the efficiency of wood by adding blower(s), air injection into the top top of the fire box, inferno arches, preheater, steam-a-way. I think I heard of someone running 2x6 with an inferno style arch and preheater and getting 60 gph. I can't verify this, but I think the most I've seen an oil fired rig do with preheater is 45 gph.

A lot of times you can get free, or near free, slab pine from a local, small time saw mill. I'm getting all my wood that way and you can process it quick. I think I've gotten all my wood processed for 10-20 gallons of gas/oil, and 2-3 weekends of time and the wood's free.

Say you buy grapple loads of hardwood for $1000 per load and figure 25 gal of syrup per chord your looking at a cost of $5 per gallon for fuel, not factoring in your time. Pallets are usually free and tarps are cheap. You don't necessarily need a structure to dry your wood. If you go oil I think it's 3 gallons of oil per gal of syrup so say oil is $2.50/gal your looking at $7.5 per gallon of syrup with no time involved, but when oil was almost $5 per gallon that would've been $15 per gallon of syrup. Wood starts looking more attractive at those prices.

[maplwrks]

I don't think it's cost effective to boil with oil without an RO. AG is right, with raw sap you are looking at $7.50 to make a gallon of syrup.My figures may be a little rough, but, even if you concentrate to 8%, you'll still have $3.00 per gallon in fuel.This is considering that oil is $3.00 a gallon.(for easy figuring)When I concentrate up to 17%-20% I can get that # down to $1.00 +/- a gallon. All the other comments in this thread are correct, everbodys' situation is different. I couldn't have put a wood fired evaporator in my sugarhouse, as the back wall of the building is only 20' to the only general store in town! Flying wood embers would not help the neighbors business much! So much for my speel---OIL IS GOOD FOR ME!!

[Sugarmaker]

my 2 cents,
I have boiled with both. The oils is great till you have to pay for it. And I wasn't, it was my dad paying for it. I was bored to tears when boiling with oil. Just stand there. Wood is not cheap in time and labor. I like the pyro part of syrup making and at this time I can still cut the wood. I get 90% of it "free" as in pallets that i have to haul home cut and stack. Its not "free".
Guests really are in AH when you open the doors to that raging fire.
Its not for the weak at heart stoking a 110 degree area at the front of the evaporator for hours.


"Its a dying breed that stoke those frothing steam rigs; with the strength of their backs, and a gleam in their eyes". Sugarmaker 1-21-09

If you want to step back in time try the wood first!

Regards,
Chris

[RileySugarbush]

I can understand the desire to use oil, especially those with bigger operations, but part of what makes this a fun hobby for me is the pleasure of looking at that stack of wood, the heat on you when you fire and the roar of the boil when the blower goes back on. Plus, I have many barrels of baltic birch plywood scraps from my sons longboard business. This will be the first year I mix those in. I bet they burn hot and fast!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I love to cut and split and haul in the wood and fireing the evaporator is a lot of fun for me too.

[brookledge]

Just to add to this, When you are small making a small amount of syrup, what is the problem in cutting up a cord or two of wood for the sugarhouse?
I can see why someone who makes a 1000 gal or more want to boil with oil instead of wood. 1 cord is easy 40 cord is alot of work.
Keith

[Bucket Head]

Yeah Chris, YEAH! Amen!

Seriously, I am not knocking the oil fired guy's. I too, despite the insane amount of added labor, enjoy the wood fired part of syrup making.

"Wood fired" or "Hardwood fired" has a nice, time-honored and traditional ring to it.

I find that just saying those words when describing our process, really drive's it home, so to speak.

A great many have no idea how their furnace works, but everybody knows how a campfire works.

P.S.- Chris, can we qoute your qoute from your post? I think all the wood burners would agree that your description is excellent!

Steve

[Buckeye mapler]

well, i am not being shimmied back and forth like i thought and i guess i was misinformed a bit on wood. these were all very informative and plus plenty of ideas to get free wood were offered. i appreciate all who have given there two cents, because every penny counts towards my WOOD FIRED ARCH! i thought of asking some of the tree trimming services if they would let me know of any big limb cuts.? i dont know, but it seems like i too should at least start with wood fired. now i have put this mind struggle to rest, i can focus on other aspects. thanks again to everyone.:)

[sawyer40]

Let me put a plug in for oil. I own and operate a sawmill everyday. After dealing with wood all day long I sure don't want to spend hours getting the fire going and up to boiling. I like just flipping the switch and in ten minuets it's rolling. I made 70 gal last year so I'm far from a big operation. But after working my 8 or more hours at the mill and then collecting sap 1-2 hours last thing I want to do is spend a couple more hours just getting it boiling and then 6-8 hours to finish. With oil I just flip off the switch leave the leval a little high in the pans and walk away. You can't do that with wood you have to stay with it get the fire knocked down and flood the pans so you don't have a melt down while your not there. You do have to sleep sometime. I should add that I'm in the firewood business and have a firewood processor so doing a few cords of wood is not a big deal. I would rather sell a couple cords of wood and buy the oil than burn the wood. My evaperator is a 3x10 and will boil off 70 gal an hour so it still takes 6-7 hours when those good running sap days accure to boil and I still have to get up and go to the mill the next day by 8:00 to get guys working.

[Grade "A"]

My father use to work for a farmer when he was in his teens. They had 2,500 taps, all buckets and a 6'x16' "Leader of burlington" wood rig. They used horses to put the sap tank around. He said that it got old fast trying to feed that thing (wood and sap). Now that we have oil he said he's never looking back. I know it's nice to see the wood burning but it's also nice to see buckets in the woods not all that tubing. It's also nice to see horses pull the sap instead of tractors of 4-wheelers. My point is that if you burn oil it doesn't make you any less of an sugarmaker because everyone has some new technology in there operation. So do what works for you and don't feel guilty about it, just have fun!!


P.S. If you do feel bad about using oil do what I did, hang 50 buckets or so. Now I too have a little old school mixed in.

[Haynes Forest Products]

How many wood chuckers on this thread dont have power in thair sap shacks ? MMMMMMMMM

[Buckeye mapler]

I am not so sure that I would pick wood for the simple fact of going old school or feeling guilty because I certainly wont be hanging large iron pots over a campfire or adding hot rocks to a hollowed out log full of sap either. I had leaned towards oil from the start and now wood is more appealing than before. I am still open for opinions, but have taken to the idea of wood. The biggest reason is cost. Oil is an unstable market when it comes to consumer's price. Up and down. As a new mapler, I want my operation to succeed, grow and prosper. It is difficult to track costs when looking at where all your capital and yearly costs go as it is. Add in the idea of fluctuating oil costs and fluctuating sap harvests, now it is hard to tell what you can expect to make after the season is over. But I do like the advantages of oil i.e. quick shut down and start up, consistant flame. It is like anything else though, the luxuries always cost more,and money can be made with hard work (splitting wood).

[Clan Delaney]

Hey! Are you mocking my hollow log?!? I'm looking at adding a vacuum next year. I hear this model is top-of-the-line.

http://onproductmanagement.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/dyson.jpg

:D

[Clan Delaney]

How many wood chuckers on this thread dont have power in thair sap shacks ? MMMMMMMMM

I have 2 kids and a treadmill. Does that count?

[tappin&sappin]

My opinion is that Sugarmaker, Brookledge and Buckeye have pretty much summed it up...

Sugarmaker
"Its a dying breed that stoke those frothing steam rigs; with the strength of their backs, and a gleam in their eyes"

Brookledge
"I can see why someone who makes a 1000 gal or more want to boil with oil instead of wood. 1 cord is easy 40 cord is alot of work"

Buckeye
"It is like anything else though, the luxuries always cost more, and money can be made with hard work (splitting wood)."

- Jake

[Haynes Forest Products]

_____________ Oil _________________

[Grade "A"]

Buckeye, if you have a wood fired arch you can take off the doors and make a plate to put a oil burner on without any cutting or welding. So you can try ether without being stuck to one fuel source. I did it on a small brothers arch last year and worked fine. My taps are not on my land so I have to buy the wood or oil. With work, family and being an Asst. Chief of my fire department I don't have the time or the room to split, stack and cover wood. But like others have said, what works for one may not work for others.

[Sugarmaker]

I really wasn't trying to step on anyone's toes with the wood thing. I still have two antique oil burners waiting it the wings if I need them:) And I have my arch set up so I could convert it in about two days, sometimes my opinions are a little heavy handed.

Go oil guys!

Could have been the bigg SAPPPPPPP report that got me all fired (no pun intended) UP!!!!

Yea you can use the quote Bucket Head! And anyone else that cares too.

OH yea we have Lots of electric gadgets in the sugar house! But when we boiled with oil we had one light bulb and a dirt floor too. and I'm not going back to that:)

So its part work, part exercise, part being smart about your time, part being smart about the finical aspects of the hobby or business, and a big part about enjoying what you do, no matter wood or oil.

Regards,
Chris

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If I have a low level of aprox 1 to 1.5 inches in my evaporator, I can have the majority of it boiling in 5 to 7 minutes including the syrup pan with my wood fired arch. If it takes 2 hours to get it boiling, someone doesn'tknow what they are doing or have very poor quality wood.

[Bucket Head]

"Are you mocking my hollow log" and "adding vacuum"-LOL, LOL, LOL!!!

That is funny!

[Buckeye mapler]

That is some funny stuff there clan. i am thinking right now that wood may just be for me after all. I will think it over more and keep my eye open for an evaporator.

Now let me ask this, how many people draw off and finish on a finishing unit?

[Haynes Forest Products]

I do its the only way I can get it right. I know others that have auto draws that still finish in a gas fired finish pan then into the bottler and in the glass it goes. I have a cover on my finisher and it will sit and condensate on the cover and go back in to the syrup. Others will let the syrup sit in the open air and it will change by 1/2 point over night as it cools.

[Grade "A"]

Sugarmaker, I don't think you steped on anyone't toes (at least not mine). Sometimes my post read differently then I intend them to. I figure you can't go wrong as long as your boiling something.

Clan, I love your vacuum, I might switch. No checking the oil and a warranty, sign me up.

I finish with the evaporator. I draw off into a stainless steel pressurized water extinguisher that I cut the top off of, a cone filter will sit in it and fold over the top. This way it doen't go past syrup as it cools because it is sealed and nothing can fall into it as it sits there.

[Romeo]

Very nice sugarhouse nice lay out Marty Concord Vt.

[adk1]

I like the tradition of wood. I think it all depends on how many taps and how much syrup u can make to pay for the oil. Most wood guys do no buy wood but cut split and stack off their property like I do. I will never goto oil