am i getting screwed... or a fair estimate.

[MaplePancakeMan]

Below is the proposed bid for the addition to our barn for the sugar shack. Good deal or not?

PURPOSED BID FOR 18’ X 24’ BARN ADDITION WITH NEW TIN ROOF ON EXISTING BARN

-Addition will have 4’ deep - 8”x 16” footing with 8” concrete wall to ground level.
-Double row of 5/8rebar in footing.
-Floor will have 4” of gravel w/ vapor barrier and 6 x 6 concrete wire.
-4” concrete floor w/ drain and a freeze hydrant w/ main line stubbed thru floor for future hook up.
-Walls will be 2x6 frame - 16” on center w/ r-19 faced fiberglass insulation.
-Exterior and interior will match existing building.
-Roof will have 4 double engineered trusses w/ space of 9’5” - 5’ center - 9’5” w/ purlings of 2x6 spaced 24” on center set into simmons 2x6 brackets.
-Ceiling will be vaulted w/ pine v-match.
- Ceiling will have ¾” blue foam.
-Lower truss chords will be exposed.
-New structure will have existing door moved and re-hung to exterior of new structure and 1 new door built.
-(4) 2’x4’ windows- thermal pane.
-A 2’x4’ cupola w/ vented sides controlled by pulley on top for ventilation.
-Existing structure will have 2x4 purling added on top of existing roof w/ SL 16 hidden screw, 29 gauge tin as well as the addition.
-Gutters w/ down spouts will be installed on existing as well as new.

ALL WORK WILL BE DONE IN A TIMELY FASHION. JOB SITE WILL BE CLEAN AND PICKED UP EVERYDAY. MATERIAL WILL BE STORED OR COVERED. ASPENLINE IS FULLY INSURED AND COVERED W/ WORKMAN’S COMP.

MATERIAL & LABOR $45,000.00

[sbmaple]

I would get another estimate

[ackerman75]

MaplePancakeMan,
Sounds like a lot of money to me, what size is the barn that you are putting the new hidden fastener tin roof on ? I know that steel roofing is high priced, but still sounds high. I am a self employed carpenter here in southern Wisconsin and that seams high for my area, unless your barn is very large.

[MaplePancakeMan]

I'd like to think i'm not getting screwed as its friends but hey everyones out to make money. The existing barn is 25 ft wide by 32ft roughly if its bigger its not much bigger

[Clan Delaney]

$45 thousand in American currency? That's almost half what I paid for my house. That I live in.

Disclaimer: I'm not a contractor. So I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Now that that's out of the way...

Some cost saving thoughts:

- 2X6 framing? Sounds like overkill. Is there a reason why 2X4 won't work?
- insulation = expensive nesting material for rodentia.
- keep the floor gravel, but pour a pad for your arch.
- thermal pane windows... fine if it's a heated living space, but not a necessity for a sugar space.
- I've seen a lot of old windows listed on craigslist. Track some down, and have the contactors install those.
- find out how much rebar is necessary in a footing. Double row may be more than is needed (see disclaimer!)

Don't let me get you down with the negative... Love the drain. Love the pulley-action cupola. Gutters, I could go either way. I got nothing against a nice drip edge. :)

[MaplePancakeMan]

Clan, those are things we didn't really specify. My dad said that he wanted it like the rest of the barn but i think the rest of the barn is in 2x4's nevertheless he told me the other day before the bid was sent that materials alone were 16,500 that means labor is almost 29,000

[jtthibodeau]

I'd recommend a couple more estimates. You can also submit a materials list to local lumber yards for a materials estimate. Take the material cost and double it to reflect labor, then add 10% (maybe 20%) for what you forgot. It's not exact but, it will get you somewhere in the ball park so, you'll have a better idea.

Much may depend on where your located. Insurance and taxes have to be considered a factor also. Knowledge usually doesn't come cheap.

A favorite saying of mine, when one learns "something" after "something" goes wrong is...."It cost a lot of money to go to Harvard".

Good luck....

[WF MASON]

I'm not a contractor either, but looking at the materials list and putting the cement work in that catagory, I'd say you'd have $17-$20k in material.
Another way to look at it is would it be
Is it being done by a professional ? Yes
Would it be done in a timely manner ? Yes
Would it be exactly what you want ? Yes
Would it improve the value of your existing property ? yes
Can I afford it ???

[tessiersfarm]

I am in construction but I will refrain from design details. If you are comfortable with the contractor and trust them ask for a little detail.

1) Foundation I think would be in the neigborhood of $6-8K
2) How far to run drain, water, $2500
3) Matching existing is not cheap, what are the materials
4) roofing probably $500 per square x 6 new and 9 old $7500
5) Gutters $1000+ for a decent system

I just came up with $18-20K and I didn't frame it, sheath, side, insulate, or build the coupola.

I don't think it is an un-reasonable estimate, but I have not seen the building. I would reccomend another estimate, but I always said there are plenty of people willing to work cheaper than me if thats what you want. If you have seen this persons work and like it give that consideration. I have heard of and fixed plenty of jobs that were started by someone who didn't know or care what they were doing.

[Pete S]

I'm not a builder, but I look at things at their are being built.

I can't picture what this is going to be, but from the design references in the bid,...........a purty nice shack!

Quick-n dirty came out to $104.00/sq. ft. to build, but that pulls in the work to the existing structure.

2x4 walls would be fine as long as they are not too tall. (let's say > 9')

Fiberglass insulation would be greatly appreciated by your resident rodents, as mentioned. Besides with an evaporator running in there, it's gonna be like running it in your house with the insulation design.

I don't like to discourage well/overbuilt foundations, but check with a design professional before you pull out the steel. (I don't know what this is going to look like)

Check out "fibermesh" concrete for the floor application in stead of the steel mesh.

Robbed from another post:
When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone. Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for; and let us think, as we lay stone on stone, that a time is to come when those stones will be held sacred because our hands have touched them, and that men will say, as they look upon the labor and wrought substance of, "See! This our father did for us."

-John Ruskin.

The rest of what I see in the estimate, just implies a real well built, nice looking building.

............NOT TO EXCEED $__,_____ just so when it's done, you still remain friends.

HEY,............where's the cost for electrical stuff?!?!?!?!

Just some thoughts,
Pete

[dano2840]

my sugar house is 20x30 and the lumber came from our farm so theres a big cost x ed out there, but to have it built is about 6 grand, w/ metal roofing so far, i dont think it will go over 7, just my 2 cents. that price seems very steep to me, but what do i know im 16 i havent put additions on my house or know what a carpenter charges, so idk

[tapper]

I am a contractor. Dont forget about excavating and grade work. That could be $2,000.00 or more. Also I see nothing for electrical work which should be done before insulating.
The materials figuerd for this job are every bit as well as what would be figured for a house. If the quality of his work matches or exceeds the quality of the material he has figured he is worth every penny of what he is asking. Do you need that for a barn addition? You can have a pole structure completly framed and not covered for approxomatly what the foundation alone he has figured will cost you.
Get some other quotes but specify exactly what you want to all bidders so they are all bidding on the same job. Don't necessarily go with the cheapest and know who you are hiring. Ask around its not hard to find a good contractor and he may not be in the yellow pages or the newspaper.

[MaplePancakeMan]

Thanks for all the repsonses. The electrical isn't on there but included in the price to include 6 standard outlets 4 lights and two switches run off the existing lines in the barn. Our Existing barn is really nice, its a one story structure with an attic, all insulated with waynescotting(sp) on the inside and on the ceiling. The outside looks just like a house with wood plank siding. its got an asphalt floor and 3 horse stalls which we don't use for horses.


As for the foundation the steel is probably the way to go, (shale rock all over the yard which heaves a lot) we had to have our pool patio ripped up after the previous contractor neglected to put steel and mesh in as per the bid and it stress cracked all over the patio and through all the tile work. Needless to say were in litigation with him. That being said, he knows our past experience with contractors and i've seen his work and not heard anything bad about it. I wouldn't have second guessed it if it was in the 35 range, i just think 45 is a bit high. I have a call into another contractor to come take a look.

Another thing is he said he could have his crew started and finished in 3-3.5 weeks. which i thought was amazing.

[maplecrest]

my sugar house is hooked to my barn. my sap storage is in the old barn. now what i did is bought a lumber supply kit building. it is 20 x 40. on a slab. with three sides two regular doors and a set of sliders. 4 windows. metal roof, trusses , 2x6 studs t-111 ect 15000. included concrete and building. that was a while ago but i bet you could do the same for under 25000. then choose the siding to match other barn. my thought. was looking at their garage kits thinking about a new sugar house some day. they were 20000 range size i was looking at

[tapper]

With most of my work being in conctrete and masonry I never substitute wire mesh or rebar with fiber and most times use both steel and fiber.
Construction costs are horrible. What you could build for 15 thousand just 10 yrs ago costs 30 or 40 thousand today. Most of that inflation took place in the last 5 or 6 years. It took the previous 30 years or more to see that kind of inflation.

[3% Solution]

MaplePancakeMan,
As others have said here before me;

1). Is this building what you want?
2). Do you have building codes to deal with?
3). Do you know the contractor?
4). Have you seen the contractor's work?
5). Do you like his work?
6). Will he stand behind his work?
7). Does he have any references you can talk to?

Now with all that said;
I do small carpentry jobs.
Now, I could put this building on sona-tubes or cement blocks, it would be cheaper, but guess what, it's not going to work, the building is too heavy!!!
I think I have a tendency to over build things, but you know, they last and my name is on them even after I leave!!
You said you have shale all around the place, well, guess what, that's not going to be easy to dig up!!
I built a small addition (12' x12') on a mobile home last year and that cost $13,000, set on sona-tubes and I work by the hour!
I would deffinately get a couple of bids, however, if you like this guys work, get him!!
Do yourself a favor, don't try to round up his materials for him (windows, doors, lumber, stuff like that), let him do it, he knows what you want, he knows where to get it and he will schedule it when he wants it there.
I don't think it's a bad price at all!
Sounds like a turn-key operation, when he's done, your in!
Just my two cents.

Dave

[Russell Lampron]

Doing it this time of the year adds to the cost too because of having to deal with frost and freezing weather. Some contractors won't work this time of the year because it is too hard on the equipment.

[gmcooper]

We are in construction and have been 5 generations. Most everything sounds reasonable $. I know it seems high, always does. You can cheapen things up some but it will not save a lot. It sounds like you speced out a nice addition and its being attached to a nice barn. Sounds like you want it done right which in the long run is the best way. With the economy they way it is you can find some one to do it for less but you might very well get a whole lot less for your money. Buliding materials are really not cheap even though no one is building. Concrete $ is out of site. Everything cost the contractors more just to stay in business.
We have put on a lot of standing seem roofing and it is more expensive and labor intensive to put on but it is a better product. I really prefer 24 gauge over the 29. Again cost more. Keep the wire mesh in the floor if heaving and settling are a known problem fiber mesh is useless. We know from experience.
From what you described there is a fair amount of labor in the work involved. If you had wanted a tar paper shack stuck on the end of the barn you would have asked for one. Be care you don't get one trying to save a few $.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Or save yourself 25 to 30 grand and have the satisfaction of a job well done and do it yourself.

[Sugarmaker]

The specs sound like a "real" nice finished building. as comparison I spent half of that for my sugar house and still had to supply the labor. And it is not as 'finished' as your specs. Ours is just a pole barn type structure. GUY's tuff is expensive out ther if you havent built for a few years!!! If you can afford it you wont be disappointed!

Chris

[MaplePancakeMan]

If i built it myself it would take 5 years not 1 month. hahah. We are getting another estimate tomorrow morning and then will make the decision. I know prices vary from region to region on labor and supplies. Its not that we can't afford it but we haven't had anything built structures that is recently and wanted to make sure we weren't just getting priced up. I myself thought it was a little higher then normal. My Parents, the ones doing the addition wanted it the same so when i stopped sugaring it wouldn't be a specific building rather just look like it had always been there. and since they are footing most of the bill i said i'd see what the trader thinks.

Still looking for a steam hood on the cheap or i might just try to make one.

On a side note i talked to a land preserve here thats 1100 acres and he gave me exclusive rights to tap it. Only problem is no tubing but i'll bet i could get a bunch of easy access taps out of it. Never been there so i haven't a clue. Kinda of excited. Might split it up between a few local producers just so we can all make more syrup. Only stipulation was that we make and bottle 10 gallons for them to sell at their store. I'm fine with that.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Do yourself and the contractor your getting the estamate from a favor apples to apples make a copy of the first est. and block out the numbers and tell him to bid it as spect. Dont pour a slab without wire and dont be afraid to throw in some rebar. I still dont understand this facination with SONO TUBES. Anyone that would give up a footing ,wall and floating slab for (sono tubes) is nuts. I dont think people understand when and ware to use sono tubes. Would someone please explain to me how you build a foundation with sono tubes? And if you think your saving money by not doing the entire floor in cement think again save 150.00 in cement to have gravel. I would dare someone to sketch out a drawing of the sap shack they want have it built and then NOT change thair mind. Try and put in a bigger evaporator or move it 2 ft to the left after you pour a slab just for it. JUST MY $4.65 worth

[maplwrks]

Here's my take on this---You are only getting screwed if you have this contractor do the work and you are not happy with it. If he does the work, and it is everything you want, then it is a good deal. I'm not here to tell you not to get a 2nd estimate, that makes good sense, I'm telling you that aside from all the good advice that other traders have given you, you are the only one that needs to be satisfied with your building and the amount spent on it!!

[peacemaker]

as a high end carpentar myself i wouldnt do what your have been specd ind the time period u need it done for less and maybe would be 8to 10 more besides plumbing you desribed an fairly complicated addition maytching the old buildings sounds easier then it is ..somtimes u have to though plumb and level out the window and thats alot harder to do then new

[Pete S]

Not looking to "start" something, but.............

I don't have any opinion/information with any applications regarding the addition or removal of reinforcement rods in your footing application. For the amount of money you'd save, who knows. Some soil conditions wouldn't "need" a footing with the soil bearing capibilities, but have an engineer check it out.

For flatwork applications MANY of the contractors around (eastern WI) here have opted into the fibermesh concrete. I spoken to guys who have done some demolition work on it, and it's brutal to take apart.

For flat work, it may save some money, but even if it's a wash may be better as the fibermesh doesn't rust.

Check out this engineering link for test results.

http://www.fibermesh.com/downloads/Propex_ER_17.pdf

Just some thoughts.

Pete

[H. Walker]

MaplePancakeMan what is that you said "when I stopped sugaring" ?????

Once the maple bug get's you it's for LIFE, stopping isn't in the maple dictionary!!

[Haynes Forest Products]

Pete S What town are you in on the east side of Wisc. I probubly got a ticket in it. Used to travel HWY 42 from Chicago to Door all the time. I agree that fibermesh is a nice way to go but I think wire and a few rows of rebar on the outside is good insurance. I have two differant slabs on grade and they were poured at differant times and they havent moved at all. I think ground prep is the most important part of the bldg. Some bldg codes wont allow you to not follow the foundation (grade verify) of the existing building if its attached. I think the determining factor plumbing and elec. Putting a storage shed on grade next to a bldg is one thing expanding a bldg that has water and elec is another thing.

[MaplePancakeMan]

H walker, i meant when i move out and dont sugar there anymore.... i know i'm set for life on this....its the only hobby i have that i enjoy spending money on to get a new toy.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Concrete with fibermesh will crack and the pieces on each side of the crack(s) could have 2 different levels and off by a bunch. If it has the proper amount of rebar in it, you won't have to worry too much about it. I have seen this first hand.

[Pete S]

I'm west of Plymouth,WI

As far as slab cracks and separation, I would think that a proper drainage plane, utilizing proper aggregate, and compaction under the slab would remove that issue. Site preparation is paramount for concrete work, whether it is for footings or flatwork.

Here in WI full size Commercial/Industrual buildings are constructed with grade beams routinely. Probably the only real difference is that they would be heated, but some are simply unheated storage buildings. From my experience, they all are very stable.

If "control joint" offsets are a concern, then make two or more pours, and at the joint install smooth metal dowels midway in the slab. This is the process for the above mentioned buildings.

The re-bar in the perimeter would never be a bad idea, and probably cancel out the issue of unstable "field" issues.

Pete

[Specklefield Farm]

that price sounds fair to me considering the list given. I do site work in so. nh and am currently not working because of the frost that is in the ground. If this work is to be done under winter conditions, I would expect that the price would have that built in. usually with frost blankets or ground heaters, you can over come the frost, but with extended frozen periods like we've had it just sinks inches (or feet) by the day. It can really hamper compaction of gravel, as the moisture is the binding agent in gravel and when it is frozen before it hits the ground,it just wont compact properly. Go with the rebar reinforced 4' frost wall. dont skimp on that, you'll be patching cracks later. Just my two cents.

[andrew martin]

Sounds good to me, especially in the winter weather (snow, ice, frozen ground, etc.) My business has worker's comp, general liability and don't forget unemployment insurance paid by the employer which is 10%, plus all of the local, school,city and county taxes that an employee and employer has to pay. After reading the description and before seeing the final price, I estimated roughly $100 per square foot, which is about the price you're paying. If he is a quality, respected builder with a respectable business, then you can't go wrong.

THose builder's out there with employees who don't pay their taxes, worker's comp, general liability and unemployment are not legitimate businesses and can potentially put the homeowner at a financial risk, and are not doing anyone any good. As well, they are driving the price down for all the legitimate builders out there who have to pay all the aforementioned overhead expenses just to stay in business.

Be sure to get worker's comp and general liability certificates from your builder before he starts, with you/homeowner listed as an additional insured.

Andrew

[MaplePancakeMan]

Thanks for all the advice guys! I Sat down with my parents, and the builder. We worked out some details and decided to go with a stand alone building to keep the evaporator out of the main barn for insurance purposes (still re roofing that barn with a metal roof) 18x24 shack for 30k including all electric and plumbing.

[peacemaker]

i think you made the right choice

[Haynes Forest Products]

Peacemaker: what are the open ended pipes in the flue pan?

[peacemaker]

incoming sap ... coming out of the float box

[Haynes Forest Products]

Peacemaker: I take it that its valved so you can change from one side to the other? Or do you disregard the dividers?

[peacemaker]

the only plug in the rig is that one so no valve just a plug