September Journal

[Brian]

Well,the summer is coming to a close and fall is almost here. Glen Goodrich is going to try to be up to 30,000 taps by this season, he has 17,000 now. I guess everyone on the trader is doing well. I got my sugar house all finished and cemented the floor, I never thought I'd get to that part til next year. I got my oil tank all set and ran 220 down to the sugarhouse, so this year I should have plenty of power for all my vacuum pump and other pumps. I took a walk in the woods the other day and had 3 lines to fix from big tree limbs that came down, got those all fixed and guess I'll be as ready as I'll ever be except I don't have my evaporator yet :roll: I sold my 30X8 for $2,000, so if I don't get everything together, looks like I'll be selling my sap :cry: Jim, as soon as I get a digital, I'll send some pictures.

[forester1]

I picked up my new tank friday I am using for a head tank. I thought it was going to be a Lapierre when I ordered it this spring but at the dealers it came in a CDL/Dallaire. Very good steel frame around it. 4'x6'x3 1/2', 570 gallons. Put it in the back of the pickup and headed to the sugarbush.I was going to use a bulk tank but wanted something lighter and easy to clean. I built the frame out of peeled hemlock and it is about 8 feet in the air. I had a couple tense moments winching it up there skidding along on some 16 foot lumber I had, but I got it up there with only a couple small dings. Spent the rest of the weekend building a roof over it. The main summer project accomplished. :)

[Brian]

Randy from leader came and delivered his old 4x12 pans to me today. I got the flue pan 2 front pans and the float box. I hope to get the arch from Glenn Goodrich in the next couple of weeks. I wish the money ran as fast as the sap!! I was thankful that the sap feed on the pre heater hood was the same as the flue pan it couldn't have been better.

[mapleman3]

Well tonight I have been stripping down the compressor/condensor unit that came with my Milk Tank, It was pretty rusty all over but luckily the lines were capped off, so internally she should be ok.. I'll do a full checkout of the compressor. Its going all the way down to the frame, and clean, derust and give her a good paintjob. then do the same with the control system on the side of the tank. Since I'm going oil, I will install the compressor/condensor unit inside the sugarhouse with a short duct off the coil, it will shoot the heat outside or with a diverter keep it pointing into the sugarhouse for heat on those cold days... I figure there is probably no need to run it when it's cooler out but it will help heat for a little bit at times... as long as it's above freezing out and the sap isn't too cool that the tstat shuts it down.. worth a try I figure. also planning out the stand to get the tank up high enough for gravity feed.

it's getting closer.. and I guess the ya'll come and all the maple talk there kicked me into high gear!!!!

[mapleman3]

most places I've seen lately have a pretty good size head tank, I know Brandon was running a 300 on his 2x8 so I imagin the 2x6 I have it should be fine with the 310 gal tank I have... what size is jerry's evap?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

My lappiere tank is 320 gallons and the biggest thing to remember with any tank that size is that there is a ton more head pressure with the tank full than with 6" in the tank and the evaporator will run with a higher level with a full tank than it will at 6". I love having a tank that big for a feed tank, but you have to be careful as the level gets low in the tank. My tank is 48" deep, so a tank that is less shallow would be better. I love the regulator system on my Leader, but I don't think there is any way to adjust for the head pressure as it gets really low other than the manual adjustment on the float unless you use what Jeremy is talking about!

Jim, good luck getting that tank up in the air as I imagine it will be a bear as it is really heavy. I am going to pick up a 300 gallon milk tank this month when I go up to my dealer.

[Brian]

I have a 545 sunset bulk tank that I use for my head tank. The float worked to hold back the pressure on the 2 1/2 x8 leader I sold. I have a inline ball valve that I keep shut unless I am boilng in case the float didn't hold. A friend of mine had the float mal fuction and drained his tank and pushed all the sweet stuff on the sugar house floor and inside his wood fired evaporator, :( I hope his bad luck will help one of you :D

[brookledge]

I know a neighbor of mine who has a 12 volt belge pump (boat type) that pumps sap into a stainless 10-15 gal tank it constantly keeps the tank full and the overflow runs back to the supply tank. The pressure in the head tank never changes thus never affecting the float and it can save you a lot of room or the trouble of building stands to hold the tanks in the air. He likes the set up and says it works great. I have a 150 gallon tank that is elevated. My old evaporator float used to leak by with a full tank because the varring head pressure. My new float is much bigger an holds the pressure back. The use of a belge pump is just another idea to throw out there

[mapleman3]

Hmm I kinda like that idea too!! a submersible pump always running and an overflow back is a good idea. doesn't have to be a big pump on a 2x6, the feed rate isn't to fast, in that case I would probably build the sap house afterall, I really want the tanks to be out of the weather(snow) just for easier access.
oh the decisions

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Al]

Well the sugar house is now complete. :D It looks good with it's 10x12 addition. Plenty of room for the boys to roam around in. Will still keep all the working gear in one end. Made up maple candy yesterday and the whole family showed up. I haven't figured out how they know yet but there batting a 1000 so far.
Still looking for a used stainless bulk tank around 300 gallons but no luck so far. My neighboor says to buy the tank style all the dealers sell. There easier to move a round and clean. Still alot of money anyway you look at it. Woods all done with some extra stacked up if the 120 taps runs runs me to overflowing. Wouldn't that be a shame! :
My growth rate has been nothing but amazing from 10 to 120 in 3 seansons. 8O :D Next years updates are forced air and a real wood shed. Not looking to far ahead am I?
You all have a great day. Time to mow my lawn.
Take care.

[mapleman3]

Al I will probably sell my forced air blower.. I'll keep you in mind, I won't need it with oil...

No if I can only figure out how to burn with corn oil or whatever the alternative fuel they are using now.. hmmm how bout hydrogen :wink:

[Al]

Sounds good to me! Anyway you go your going to pay. Hopefully it will be the most cost efficent way.
Take care.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Al,

Awesome job on the sugarhouse and thanks for the photos. Just think, with 120 taps, you could easily make 30 to 40 gallons. I think you have great ideas on expansion and keep up the great work! :D :D

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Spent all day yesterday working on new tubing and mainlines. I have redone 100% of my tubing and mainlines this year and all the tubing is new thanks to the nine boxes of Beaver Ridge I bought from mapleguys. I am about 1 box from finishing up and I will be around 400 on tubing and 25 on buckets. I also installed all new Leader tree saver spouts and the 25 on buckets will be on the 5/16" Leader cast spouts.

I am heading up to my Dealer in a couple of weeks and get my airtight front and blower. I had an amish in that area make me a stainless hood system and I have all the stuff I need to build me a preheater this fall.

It is only 5 months till syrup season down here. :D :D

[the mapleking]

Started on the grand canyon main line improvment. Set some 2" sold steel posts in concrete. Will redo the lines with a cable lasher " the same system that your elect. lines are hung" nice to have freinds in that deptartment.
This way I don't have to tie off to the trees, A sraight run across the creeks, 1 at 225 ft. and 1 at 195 ft.
And I will had some more taps, top off around 800. my 3x8 is getting small. Might have to ship it over to Rick and sqeeze in a 4x10. I'm all so getting bugged by some freinds who said I could tap their woods. But that would bring it up to 2000 taps. I'm not ready for that much yet. :wink: :wink:

[forester1]

Jeremy, I wasn't sure how big of head tank to get. Not many syrup makers here so I just go by what seems right at the time. I have a 4x12 wood-fired with preheater so it should go 170 gallons per hour. Since the tank is 570 gallons that would be good for 3 hours boiling or so. I didn't want to be running out to fire up the pump every hour. Good point about the excess pressure overrunning the float. I will have to watch for that. That's why I love this site, all this good information. I was going to use a 300 gallon zero bulk tank I had on hand but it was a lot heavier to hoist in the air. I didn't think I could do it. Plus the open tank will clean a lot easier. Something to keep in mind Al when you look for a tank.

[syrupmaker]

Joe.....You go right ahead and take the neighbors up on there offer to tap there trees. I'd be more than happy to help you make room for your new 4x10. 8) Might even have to help you tap so i know you'll have enough sap to run it for the season.
:P
Rick

[mapleman3]

Sounds like Ricky will be boiling on a nice 3x8 soon!!!!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Joe,

If you are thinking of possible expanding that much in the future, a 4x10 isn't going to do you that much good. With 120 gph rate you are getting with the 3x8, why not go with a RO. You could knock off 2000 gallon of sap with an RO and the 3x8 in aprox 5 or 6 hours. 50 gallon of syrup in 5 or 6 hours with a 3x8, now that would be impressive. :D :D

[mapleman3]

Brandon I'm surprised .. I thought you were'nt big on RO?, I like the idea of going bigger too, why bother with the RO just that much more equipment to maintain and "In My opinion" not as good tasting syrup.. Remember guys.. 'Just my Opinion".. I know all of you who use it swear by it, and you still sell a crap load of syrup which is Great!!! and thats what counts

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Jim,

I am definitely not a big fan of an RO and I have the same opinion as you. Just don't want to see Joe have to work too much as I know he gets tired of cutting wood every year.

Joe, as efficient as you make your evaporators, I would imagine you could get about the same boil rate out of a 3x12 as you could a 4x10 and use about 1/4 less wood. With what you are getting out of your 3x8, I imagine you could probably get close to 200 gph with a 9' flue pan on a 3x12 if you were brave enough to go to a 9' flue pan. Good luck with whatever you decide and keep us informed! :D :D :D

[themapleking]

R.O. are nice but I thinks there's a differance in syrup taste with them " get a big debate on that subject " But if I get a 4x10 with a high efficienct arch hood pre heater should bring about 210 gph or add a steam- a- way and get close to 280 gph by the book specs?
R.O. or steam-a-way are about the same price. I'm still thinking maybe next year. I firgured it will take another 30,000 ft of tubing and mainlines for that project.
Rick you guys are more than weclome to bring your sap over to boil. I'm getting an auto draw off this season so if we get toooo many beers in us it shouldn't f**k up on us :wink:

[mapleman3]

Tough day at work today, had to remove 2 somewhat old large "OIL" fired boilers out of an Apt. complex the Co. I work for owns... BUT :lol: :lol: Guess what was firing one of those old babys??? A nice Carlin 301 Burner in Great shape !!! Guess where it's going ???? it's in my truck bound for the 2X6 in the Sugarhouse.. so I guess hard work pays off.. and it's better than it ending up tossed with the boiler !! well now I'll clean it up make it Shiney again and install it for the comming season... now to work on gettin the oil tank out of the lower barn and next to the sugarhouse!!!

[Al]

Good for you Jim. Well I'm down to my last gallon of syrup. :D :( Hope to make it to spring. Just sold a couple pounds of candy to a lady at work. Just went crazy over over the candy I sent into work with Sue for some reason. :D Have orders for next year already. I think I better make more then 9.5 gallons next spring. Seems like for at least now my candy market is really good. No complaining here thou.
Wife is up for more taps. Nothing like a crisp 20 here or there to get her attention!!! :lol:
Take care all.

[mapleman3]

So Al.. here's the question.. 1 more season with the thrifty? 2x6-2x8 following year? I think you will be growing in size soon. if you get near 200 taps, remember the long boils, it may be worth selling and upsizing. hey we all do it, thats why the smaller rigs like ours move around so much... cuz we always want to make more. I think I'll max mine out with oil this year and preheater and hood next year and see if I can get to my 100 gallon goal as is. I'm figuring with the oil, I should be able to boil more often. and can in bulk.

[syrupmaker]

Jim....lucky dog lucky dog. Free heat maker,too bad you couldn't get the free heat juice as well. That would be the cake. :wink:

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Al,

If you don't go over 200 or 250 taps,you should be fine with his rig as he has more time to boil than most of the rest of us. I think it is wonderful that you could retire young so you can have time to do things like this. Soon the little ones will be big enough to take care of themselves all the time and you will have tons of time to boil! :D :D

Of course, you could probably get more out of your rig than you paid for it since you got such a good deal and upgrade to a 2x6 cheaper than you could install the insulated front and blower and get an even higher evap rate.

You know, we're never satisfied. :oops: :oops: :? :wink: :lol: :lol: 8O

[Al]

No up sizing for this kid. 150 will be top number. With forced air and a couple of small improvements I'll be all set to go. Figure about 25 gallons an hour. Take care

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Al,

If you don't ever plan on going over 200 taps, you have all the evaporator you need. You might want to consider adding a float box in the future to control the level. Sure helps if you have 200+ gallon to boil off and have something to keep a constant level in the evaporator.

Your on the right track and I'm certain you will have the best quality syrup in VT next year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

Kevin I think your season clock is off... Boiling all night? better get off of that bottle..hehehe :wink:

[themapleking]

Kevin,
A R.O. would be cheaper than a new set up plus it would increase me from 3-4 gals hr syrup to 10 gals hr syrup. big time saver. But theirs that germ factor with the R.O. process, which I already knew about from talking with R.O. users. - Catch 21- I know one prducer that's running 2000+ taps on a 3x8 with R.O.
I'm waiting for Jim to build me a fully auto system. That I can turn it on and go to work. Come home and the finished syrup is done and bottled 8)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you boil your syrup as it comes thru the RO or within a couple of hours, I don't think there is much problem with bacteria/germs from what I have been told :?: :?:

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Al]

O.K. Not to change the subject but will. My sugar house is 110ft away frome my garage. Last year I used extension cords to get there. My lighting was a double halogen work light. Only used one but boy did it light up the night. We use it for night sledding when not in the sugar house. Have a very limited budget but want to upgrade. My father-in-law says to buy a roll of 10 2 wire and use it to wire the whole sugar house. Build an extension chord this year and finish the sugar house the next. I plug into a wall socket in the garage and go out under the door. The reason to change is if you plug anything else in the lights go down about 50%. He says 10 2 will take care of that. Is that over kill or what?
Any advice out there?

[themapleking]

Al,

Ok time for elect school. 10 ga.will handle a max breaker of 30 amps. But if your make an extension cord with 10 ga. at 110ft the total amps. drops down to 10 amp & 1150 watts. Firgure out your total amps and watts on everything you plan to use at one time. Your garage is wired with 12 ga. or 14 ga. so plugging into an outlet with smaller wire will decrease that total.- I.E. you can't draw more amps from smaller wire to larger.
The best way to do it is run 10-2 ga. off your elect. box in the garage to the shack. Build a ground off your elect box in the shack. Than your will have the full amps. at the box- 30 amps. Than wire the shack will 12 ga. or 14 ga.
12 ga. wire will handle 20 amp. breaker and 14 ga. will handle 15 amp breaker. I hope ths helps you out. :?
My shack is wire with 6-2 ga. with the ground buildt off the box at the shack. So I have 220volts and 60 amp breaker. Just incase I get an R.O.

Joe

[mapleman3]

Lets go 1 step further... buy 10-3 with ground,or bigger like joe says, you will want to come out of the circuit box with 2 hots off a double pole breaker(for 220)and a nuetral(for the 110v items) and of course the ground, thats the only truly safe way to have both the 220 and 110.... 220 motors will run more efficient such as for vacuum pumps, compressors etc. do it once Al, you can bury direct deep with caution tape laying only 6 inches from the surface of the dirt so if you dig you hit the caution tape first.. or run it in plasctic conduit(the better way) 110 ft shouldn't cost ya too much.. but be sure to bury it at least 18" down if you can... but where you are and you know where it will be.. just bury it as much as ya want.
Jim

[syrupmaker]

It only costs ya a nickle more to go 1st class!

[syrupmaker]

It only costs ya a nickle more to go 1st class! spend it now and drop a 50 amp service from your box under ground to the shack.Grab yourself a 8 space box and you'll be set for a few years.That would handle a vac pump and any blowers or lighting you would want. Heck go heavier now for when you toss an R/O in the mix down the road. The way you have expanded this past year, it could be a possibillity by 2007. The price difference between 10awg, 6 AWG or even 2awg is not that much different. Especially when you figure that it will never drop in price.Buy the heavier now and you'll be set for the next electrical expansion project.

Rick

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Al,

Great advice from all, but I would agree with Rick that it would be better to spend a few extra dollars and do it right the first time. If you need only 100+ feet, you may look around and find a friend that has that much laying around or has some that was taken out of a building or something in good condition.

It seems that most of us have taken the cheap way only to have to go back in the future and redo it. You may never use it, but better be safe than sorry. You may want to use a welder in the building, install an electric hot water tank or an electric range.

Never know, but better to plan for the slight possibilities as have to redo it 4 or 5 years from now and it is a lot cheaper to spend a little more now as having to spend for it twice plus the labor. :D

[syrupmaker]

The old saying....Why is there always time to do it right the 2nd time?

[Al]

Well your all right of course!! :D Looks like this year it will stay the same and I'll go for it next season. Thanks for all the inputs. Never thought about 220 in the sugar house for me. Just wanted a couple of outlets for the boys to plug in a small T.V. to watch and some standard lights. If I can keep them from being bored and staying in the sugar house longer I get more done. In theory that works anyways!!! :D
Once again you've all come to the rescue. What a great site.
See ya down the road. :D

[Al]

Hoy cow!!!!!! R.O. vacum pumps etc. Don't let my wife even get wind of that or my budget will go away! 8O Imagine all that for 150 taps. O.K. maybe 200 tops. My property will be tapped out then but of course the guy across the road has some beautiful road side maples (40 taps)he said I could tap for a couple years now. My farmer buddy down the road has trees for about 90 taps not enough to start his own operation. :D I was out walking my wood lot last night and I have more sugar maples that I don't tap then ones I do. Is that bad or what?
Good thing I have strong will power and a small evaporator!!!
Take care

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[Al]

That's just what I'll do when I win the lottery. :D

[syrupmaker]

That would be sweet for sure. Problem down my is that the power co. will only put one service drop in per st address,and the darn poles are $1100 for them to set it.Easy out though is to change your address by one or two digits and they don't know the difference. :wink:

[mapleman3]

Rick I think the same holds true here too. I remember back a bit calling to add a service to my barn, but I think they also said the 1 per address thing. I'd like to give the sugarhouse it's own power...that way it can be totally written off as business, I need more power there, and I only have 50amp going to the barn, I will have to come off that with a 30amp line to the SH.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Al,

What is this about 150 taps would be that max for you and that was less than 48 hours ago and now you are talking of passing up me and mapleman. See what happens when you have too much time to walk around and think. You weren't the first person to say "not me"! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Just a little fun, no pun intended! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Al]

Well you know if this was going to be a business every spare tree I could find would be tapped. But being it's a hobby I don't mind the extra trees around. Some times it's easier to find trees if your small. Alot of people up here who are big wouldn't even fool around with 40 taps. If I tapped all the neighbors trees who said they didn't mind I could be up around around 350-400 taps in a hurry and more to get. I have a farmer up here who has to many taps and would let me use part of his sugar bush. About 600 taps already on tubing:D Then all I would need is about 5 thousand dollers to upgrade. Let's see a 2x8, filter system.
Nope if it were a business it wouldn't be a much fun to me.! :D
Take care and have a great day.

[mapleman3]

2-300 taps as a small money maker is still fun!! thats the way I look at it, and I figure 1-2 more years to pay off my investment then I can see the $$ going into the pocket and not having to say .. well this replaces the money I used for the vac, releaser,or the tubing or the evap ect. ect. ect. when it's more work than fun... it's not a hobby anymore.

[Al]

Absolutely!!!!!! Work is work and fun is fun.

[themapleking]

Jim,
Keep your syrup operation as a hooby. One of my friends does all that tax IRS crap and we check into claiming mine as a business. If you sell over $450 a yr than you have to start paying the gov. They always find away to screw you.

Al,
Just so you know a few yrs ago I started boiling on a 16" finshing pan with 20 taps. 19hrs to make a gal. Now looked what happend to me a 3x8, new shack, filter press, 800 taps on lines with vacume, Did I say something about a R.O. down the road with 2000 taps. Now we know what a junky feels like. Just can't get enough of it. THAT SWEET SUGAR.

[mapleman3]

the heck with that "needle exchange program" for addicts... what about an equipment exchange for us "Junkies" ????? :lol: :lol:

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Joe,

Just think, 19 hours for 1 gallon and now you are making 2.5 to 3 gallons an hour. Hard to believe and as you had mentioned, with an RO you could make 10 gallons per hour.

Technology, it will be the death of us all! 8O 8O 8O

[Al]

Hi Brandon, it won't be the death of us all but the wallet may need a little CPR. :D Well got some more wood to gather and but away. Nothing like grabbing a splitting maul and splitting wood first thing in the morning to get you going.
Still got that 3 pointer hanging around the woodlot. He better watch out or pretty quick he'll be hanging from a tree. :D
Take care

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Al,

I'm with you as far as hunting season. It is only 3 weeks away till squirrel season and 4 weeks till bow season. I will probably do more squirrel hunting this year than anything else as I really enjoyed it last year. I have a Marlin bolt action .22 and it is a lot of fun and it shoots great. I killed 33 squirrels with it last fall and look forward to more fun this year.

I spent all day today running 200 feet of water line to the building that I use for a sugarhouse at my dad's and now I have water about 4 feet from my evaporator. It will definitely be a lot nicer with it there, but it was a ton of work getting the line run. We ran it about 24 to 30 inches deep and used a small backhoe to dig the trench, but it still took 4 of us nearly all day.

Good night! :D