Help a new member get started

[Clan Delaney]

As I was looking through the Classifieds I saw an ad from a new member, StewieSugar (http://www.mapletrader.com/community/member.php?u=3540), that I thought was asking more for info than for specific equipment. So, I'm putting a copy of the ad here so we can help him with his questions.


I've got a dozen good trees, a 2x4 pan from a friend, and a simple arch. Otherwise, I need everything else - taps, drill/bit/brace, buckets/lids, thermometer, ... (what else do I need?).

This is our first year, so we want to start simple/small. We live in southeast Minnesota and are looking for a enough stuff to make a few gallons of syrup this spring.

If you don't have items to offer, can you give me some idea of what I should expect to pay for the items I need?

I'll start...

It sounds like you have most of what you'll need to make syrup, all you need is the stuff to gather the sap. You need to decide if you want to use buckets on your trees, or run tubing and collect everything in a single location. If your trees are grouped together, it might be cheaper to run tubing than to buy a bucket for every tree. Five gallon buckets (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100087613) can be had at Home Depot for around $2.80 a pop. Plastic taps (http://www.leaderevaporator.com/items.php?71) are about 40 cents each. Depending on where you are and who you buy from, tubing can be about 15-20 cents per foot. If you go with all tubing, you'll need a large container to store the incoming sap. Heck, you might want one even if you're on buckets. I use a dedicated Rubbermaid trash can to collect from just 8 trees on tubing. Made 10 gallons last year just from those. You could be looking at more than just a few gallons of syrup with a dozen trees yourself.

[StewieSugar]

Clan,

Thanks for the offer of help - I'll take what I can get.

I like the idea of tubing, but my trees are spread across 40 acres, so they're 50 to 200 feet apart. Do you think it's effective to run tubing that far for so few trees, or am I better off with buckets?

I've just started reading on-line info on making syrup (several great sources out there), and many of them mention how the odors/contaminants from storage containers can affect the flavor of syrup. From the postings on this forum, it seems like I don't necessarily need food-grade containers - is that correct? Can I go buy/use any new/clean five gallon bucket for gathering? For storage of sap, can I use any new/clean garbage can? Is galvanized or plastic can better?

The pointer to the supply place is great - looks like what I need with a reasonable price.

Thanks.

[jason grossman]

stewie, unless you are going totally tradition you don't need a brace and bit, a cordless drill works fine. you just need the proper size bit for whatever size spile you buy. also you may what to check into using bags instead of buckets. you can pitch the bags at the end of the season and just store the holders. i would stay away from buckets if they are really old and don't look good. the plastic type and construction is a concern, becuase most plastic in non food grade use is made from some percent of recycled materials, and who knows what it was in a previous life. however, if you are not storing huge quantities, for long periods, some new clean plastic pails will be fine. so all you would need is a hydrometer and you are set. my two cents...

[Clan Delaney]

As you consider buckets vs. tubing, keep this in mind as well - tubing can be left up year round. Buckets, not so much.

This (http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100656030) is similar to the can I use to collect at the end of my lines. Washed it when I bought it, and then again at the end of the season. When not in use it's stored with the lid on and chock full of silica gel packets to keep any moisture, and hence molds, under control. The sap stays in the can for maybe two days tops before it gets boiled. If there's any off flavors to my syrup, I'm not aware of them. I've heard of people using galvanized trash cans as well.

[dano2840]

when i had 8 and 12 taps my first years, i bought a trash can(new) and used that to collect with on a sled ( you know a sled u get on it and slide down the hill) and with a few bungies and baler twine to hold it down. i had tubing and buckets. its probably cheaper to run tubing, go buy some 5 gal buckets and you can run 2 taps into 1 bucket. then its easy to collect. you can buy the spouts for the tubing for .25-.39$ from a local sugaring supplier, the pipe isnt to expensive eather

[jtthibodeau]

I used a new, available, galvanized trash can my first year until I noticed the crimp seal along the bottom wasn't water tight. I then converted to empty soda (Pepsi) barrels/drums. It's been difficult to remove all the odor of the syrup from the container but, I've never had a problem with "tainted" syrup because of it.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

The Rubbermaid containers at Walmart are cheap and make good safe storage. You can pick up a 50 gallon with a lid for 16 to 18 bucks and the 18 and 30 gallon are 5 to 12 bucks each. Besides, they stack nicely inside each other at the end of the season if you have several the same size and the lids stack too!

[lpakiz]

StewieSuger,
Not sure where exactly you are, but there is an annual open-house at Roth Suger Bush, near Cadott, WI. Cadott is right on Hwy 29, east of Eau Claire.
It's for three days the first full weekend of Feb.. Several dealers with equip, plus Roths is a supplier of all kinds of stuff. You might pick up some knowledge or equipment there, as well as a free lunch .....Very low key/low pressure.

[StewieSugar]

... there is an annual open-house at Roth Suger Bush, near Cadott, WI. ... for three days the first full weekend of Feb..

This sounds neat. I checked Roth's web site, but found nothing. Is there a web site or flyer about the event? Are there any other such events in SE MN area?

I checked with local farmers, friends, etc., but I cannot find anyone in the local area (about 20 miles SE of Rochester) that is tapping trees. I'd love to see a real operation in action - and spend a day helping out. Anyone out there within a hour or so of here that would be willing to get some free labor for day in trade for me learning on the job?

[RileySugarbush]

If you are in the twin cities, the U of Minn Landscape Arboretum in Victoria has a great set up. That was my inspiration a decade ago.

While not a real operation like some here, you are welcome to visit us in Eden Prairie as well. And I'm sure you could find someone closer to home.

[lpakiz]

StewieSuger,
Roth's phone Number is (715) 289-3820 or 289-3665. This year is a split weekend, so not sure when it is exactly. Give them a call. Dawn Roth is a super person you will want to meet, as well as a lot of other syrup-makers and suppliers who will be there. Did I mention the free lunch??

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dont touch that doubble releaser in the corner its mine

[lpakiz]

Stewiesuger,
I received the Roth flyer today--the open-house is Feb 5,6 7. If you need the syrup hydrometer, it is $16 there, and with the discount (10% I think) it would be $14.40. Cheap and NECESSARY.
They will have speakers there on Friday and Sat at 1PM. One is about wood pellet fired evaps and the second is on smaller ROs. They also have all the taps, tubing etc that you would ever need. If you're buying, come early as the check-out line gets super long near lunch and later.
If you are near Rochester, my sons In-laws are in Lewiston--can't be too far from you.
I attended the Wisconson Maple Syrup Producers meeting a little last night. There was a dealer there from Westby Wi. (He said he was from Viroqua, which is near.) His business is Kickapoo Gold LLC and his name is Phillip Gudgeon 608-634-4896 phil@kickapoogold.com Nice guy-really helpful. Just likes to talk maple and would be able to supply you with equipment and advice as well as that "preview" that you are seeking come March!!

[StewieSugar]

The suggestions and offers of help (both on-list and in PMs) has been terrific - Thanks.

One piece of advice I've heard is that I should not let the syrup get less than 2" deep in the pan while I'm cooking it. Well, my pan is about 19" by 51" on the bottom, and a local high school shop class made me a wood-burning cooker to match the pan (for the price, it's beauty brings tears to my eyes). At 2" deep of syrup, I think that works out to be something like 8 gallons of syrup. Assuming a 40:1 ratio, that would take about 320 gallons of sap. Is that correct?

How many trees do I need to tap to get 320 gallons of syrup in a single batch? Considering that I was targeting just a dozen trees this year, I'm under the impression that I might need to go with a smaller pan. Suggestions?

How much sap should I expect to get per tap per day? Would it be terrible if I let the sap sit a day or two and cooked it every-other or every-third day (such that I can take advantage of the large pan/coooker)?

Or, do I need to start searching for a smaller pan that just happens to fit the size of my cooker?

[Haynes Forest Products]

I think you have the prosses skewd in the sence that you wont fill the evaporator with syrup but sap and if your doing batch cooking you will boil 320 gallons of sap to get to 8 gallons in your evapotator 2" deep but that is a long way off with 12 taps. If you got 1 gallon per day your talking 26 days of collecting. Lets hope for 1.5 gallons were down to 17 days.Ok lets stop with the reverse enginering and start over. If you have a flat pan you can start out boiling 12 gallons and keep adding until you have syrup and it will take along time and you will end up with spoiled sap/syrup in the cooker if it isnt dense enough. You can cook it down slow with all the sap you have and slow boil it at a much lower sap level and store the consentrate in a freezer til you have enough to do a final boil. Your sap can spoil over a couple days in warm temps so boil after 24. I would look for more trees to start out with.

[NedL]

Last year I was only able to boil on Sundays(work and home schedule). I stored the sap outside all week. During cold weeks it was great to remove the ice and shorten my boiling times. During warm weeks, I froze a few gallon jugs every night and in the morning threw them into the storage tanks. It kept the sap pretty good. Not perfect, but I only use the syrup for home and friends.

[Jeff E]

There is another great sugar supplier, Andersons Maple Syrup, near Cumberland, WI. I buy from both Roths and Andersons. Both great people. They carry some different lines (CDL vs. Leader).

I cooked for years on a flat 24x48. I would plan on cooking all day, twice a week. I could evaporate about 10-12 gallons an hour, and would end up with about 2-3 gallons a day.

I never stored partially evaporated sap. I would boil, keeping 2" of sap in the pan until about dark, then I would slow the fire down and finish off the 'syrup'. There were days when I ended with a half inch of syrup in the pan. Obviously the pan has to be FLAT and LEVEL. Mine was set up with rails off one side of the arch, level with the bottom of the pan, so when the syrup was really syrup, I could pull the pan off the fire and stop the boil.

This worked really well, but towards the end of the day, there was no walking away for cup of coffee and a cookie.

[ackerman75]

I was wondering what you guys thought of the idea of getting rid of the ice in buckets when collecting because I checked it one time, let the ice melt and checked it with a sap hydrometer and it still tested almost as high as the sap that wasn't froze. Don't know ?
Jamie

[Jeff E]

I have never tested the ice, but have tasted it. It was sweet, so I have kept it all. I Usually leave it it bags/buckets, as it helps keep the sap cool on warmer afternoons.

There were days when I had the boil on my flue pan go wild, and I would add cold sap, raising the level, and 2 minutes later it was worse, boiling over the pan. Guess what I did with the ice chuck then?
I can tell you, Ice blocks shaped like a sap sak bottom can really kill a boil :)

[Haynes Forest Products]

Ford ,Chevy ,Right, Left ,black pipe, blue pipe ,Tall girls ,short girls,vacuum , gravity ,Bud lite Coors Light,less filling ,Tastes great..........................WHEN will the madness end? I have seen buckets completely frozen solid did the sugar UP and leave? Im with Ackerman I feel every drop of liquid is presious and its getting boiled!

[maple flats]

I have always kept the ice too. However several years ago Mother Earth News had an article about backyard sugaring. Thier method was to freeze sap (in the freezer) and when it was about 1/2 ice, remove the ice and freeze again. I think they did this about 3 or 4 times and then boiled the rest. They said the plain water (almost but not quite pure water) froze first and the sweets almost all stayed in the liquid. I think if you froze too much the sweets also froze, coating the outside of the ice. This is a poor man's RO sort of, but only for small operations.
With buckets on good trees on a good day you will fill a 16 qt bucket or 4 gal. This however is not the average but just a GOOD day. If you only have 12 trees, do you mean 12 taps or are the trees big enough for 2+ taps. On buckets or gravity tubing I do 1 tap for every 10" tree, 18" gets 2, 25" gets 3 and 32" or more gets 4. Never more than 4 in my book. These numbers are only if the tree looks good and healthy, if in doubt go 1 less tap.

[jmbinventions]

The sugar will lower the freezing point of the sap but not to much below 28F. I also keep the sap it is worth it, what's a little more water, you are boiling it anyway.