2009 New York St. maple producers winter conference

[themapleking]

Plan on attending the 2009 New York state maple producers winter conference.
January 9th 6:00pm-9:00pm
January 10th 8:00am-4:00pm
Vernon-Verona-Sherril high school
Vernoa, NY
state route 31 just 2 minutes from NYS thruway exit 33

[Bucket Head]

I'll be there.

Who else is planning on going?

Steve

[maple flats]

My wife and I will be there both Fri nite and all day Sat. Does anyone know it The Maple Guys will be there this year? If yes, that is an excellent meeting place. And don't forget to thank them for this forum. One year they even made name tags showing our forum name or handle, that was excellent for helping us know each other. If we have not heard from Kim or Chris about this by next weekend how about we jointly come up with a method to help us know other traders.

[gmcooper]

I'm thinking of going as my son lives in Vernon. I do have a copy of schedule and it looks interesting. How many people usually attend? How many booths at the trade show?
Mark

[maple flats]

The last couple of years there have been about 5-600 people at the conf. The vendors display in a full size gym completely filling the perimeter and a couple of rows in the court (the rest of the center is set up with tables. Vendors also fill the a large snack bar/entryway. I am not sure how many but I guarantee you will find every manufacturer represented and most by more than 1 dealer as well as manufacturers having their own booth. Many offer show specials on displayed mdse and many offer discounts for items ordered at the show to be delivered or picked up later.
I do not attend many other shows but I have been told by those who do that this is one of the best year in and year out.

[briduhunt]

I will be attending my 1st ever. I am loking foward to it and from what I see there seems to be some very good class's to attend. I will be down on Sat. only. I do have a list of item that I need to purchase and am looking foward to wheeling and dealing. See you there.

[mapleman3]

I have a detailed list of seminars in the Mass Maple posts above, this conference is no doubt one of the best places to go for maple info!! if you don't learn anything there.... you won't anywhere!!

[mapleman3]

Oh and Mapleman3 and Mrs. Mapleman3 will be there! Yes Chris and Kim will be there. We will need to all get together !

[mfchef54]

mfchef and the Mrs. and Son #2 will be there. First time for us. I think they're looking forward to it more than me LOL.
speaking of getting together how do we do that?
A question for those who have been there. With the schedule so tight how do you find time to go to the show?

[Bucket Head]

I know everyone can not do this, but this is the best way to "see" everything.

The last couple of years my father and I have attended the trade show Fri. night.

We found out that it is hard to see the displays and talk to the dealers on Sat. It can be done, but its tough. Not enough time in the day kind of thing.

It is also less crowded on Fri. night.

Steve

[Dennis H.]

I am planning on being there, I got my registration in early and I have a room booked at the Super8.

This will be my 2nd year and it looks like there will be a few of the same classes but also a bunch of new, so the hard part will be how to goto all the classes that I would like to goto. I wish I had a clone!!

It's good to hear that the Maple Guys will be there. If I remember right they were planning on going last year but something happened that caused them not to be able to attend.

Hope to meet a bunch of you all there, put a face with a name.

[maple flats]

If Chris and Kim have offered to do name tags again I missed it.
If they did not offer how about we each print our name (mapletrader name that is) on a 3/4" high by 3" wide piece of white paper in neat legible letters. This size will fit into the nametags supplied and show at the bottom on the tag which is in a plastic sleeve and is given to every attendee, both vendors and JQ Mapler alike. Then when given your name tag slip it into the sleeve and others can see your name printed by the FFA and your trader name you printed below it.

[backyardsugarer]

I will be there on Saturday. Maybe Friday night if things work out ok.

[maplwrks]

I guess I'll make the trip out to see what all the hype is about!!

[mapleman3]

I will try to bring sticky labels we can put on our reg tix or just on a shirt.... I will drop them at the MapleGuy booth if Chris didnt bring anything.... put your trader name and location... I think it will work great!!!

[maple flats]

I learned several things at the conference. According to Steve Childs, Cornell maple specialist you should not have more than 5 or 6 taps on a lateral. He says those who use high tap counts are hurting themselves in the long run. His point was that on a long run the trees at the bottom actually have pressure trying to force sap back into the tree. He said to just pull a tap near the bottom on a long high tap count line and see how high the sap shoots. That height is almost the height that the trees are under pressure rather than vac. He said tests show that when this happins there is some mold and bacteria forced into the lower trees from the lines and the lower trees will dry up earlier than the highest ones, which actually do have some natural vacuum. Item 2. Install the drop tees several inches from the tree, this makes it less likely to get squirrel damage because they can't balance as well because the tubing spins as they try unlike an overhead elec wire which is rigid enough not to spin. If they can't easily reach the tee from the tree, less damage. Steve is doing research to determin recommended change intervals. Non determined yet but they have determined that it does much better that just changing the spout adapter. He thinks it will be maybe every 5 years to change the drop, tee and all. His tests are not only testing additional sap yield but balancing that against the cost of new drops and labor to install them (yes your labor should assigned a $ value even if you do not hire help) He noted that his first tests on gravity tubing which was washed immediately after the season every year still goubled the yield the first year if the drop was changed after 5 years. This increase keeps deminishing each year until you change it again in another 5. Food for thought.
Steve Childs is also working up a book of tables for calculating tubing sizes needed for each different situation. One formula does not do it. As length, rise in elevation, CFM of pump, vacuum levels on system and other factors change the numbers all change. He gave an example of a system that had 15# vacuum on a wet/dry system could handle 3000 taps. If the Vacuum was increased on this same system to 20# the taps it could handle dropped to about half, and 24# dropped it to about 30% of what it handled at 15#. I did not take notes fast enough to get all of the condidtion but be aware that the vacuum level radically changes the # of taps any given system can handle, and the number drops more than most maplers realize. It would be good if he has his book available before I finish my system next year but he said this project is unfunded so he has to do it in his free time so it might even be more than one year.

[maple flats]

For another class I went to I learned one guy's method of optimising evaporator efficiency. He spoke both about oil and wood but as i currently use wood and will for several more years I only jotted notes about wood fired. This guy was from Leader and these were his ideas. !. cut wood the grate length +/- 10% (this seems slightly long to me) #2. criss cross wood as you load arch, not cross ways and straight but angled left on one layer and angled right the next for better air passage, both natural or forced air draft. Do not fire 1/2 at a time, but rather do it all. Have wood right there ready to go in before opening door. #3. use a timer to refuel at proper interval. To get the interval for your rig get it going well, then fill it to about 60-70% and close doors. Have a stack temp gauge. When you have enough air an efficient burning arch should have a stack temp of 800-1000 degrees with the ideal at about 900-950. When the stach temp drops to about 850 check the time and refuel. This should be your interval. You with time may need to tweak it but start here. Also, when you refuel the wood should not be any lower than about 40% full as you open the door(s). #5 Mix hardwood and soft, keep hard at 70%+ and soft not more than 30%.if at all possible. #6 Brush flues regularly, at least every 3-4th boils if not more. #7 If you see a flame aou the stack you need more air. The wood gasses are not burning all that way but rather are using up the oxygen and re igniting as they get new air at the top of the stack. Give it more air and get the BTU's under the pans. #8 Add defoamer with every refueling but only in the flue pan, never in the syrup pan. #9 run syrup pan at 1.5-2.0". With the fire properly hot you will need this depth. On raised flue you can run about 3/4 to and inch less is the flue pan if you like but he doesn't on his.
Get the pans at top efficiency before adding pre heaters, piggy backs or steam away. With the pans at peak efficiency each of the enhancements will work better too because the steam will be flowing better.
What do you guys think about these statements? I think i will make some changes and try it before I judge it too harshly.

[maplwrks]

Dave-

All of these statements are correct. I run oil, but when I boiled on a wood rig, I liked to fire every 4 minutes. My theory is to keep the wood at the 70% level you were referring to. When you fire every 4 minutes, you only add 3-4 sticks of wood, and shut the door. I think if anyone that doesn't do it this way were to try it, they would find that their rig would boil totally different.
I had a friend last season that was having production problems with his rig. He asked if I could come up and boil with him to critique him! His problem was he was firing every 6 minutes and would shut the blower off every time he fired. The boil immediately left the pans and would foam over when he turned the blower back on after firing was completed. When he killed the blower, the syrup pan was back mixing, causing him to boil his syrup much longer than needed. To remedy this, I suggested that he turn the fan DOWN, not off, fire every 4 minutes, and put a defoamer dripper into his flue pan. He started doing this and couldn't believe that his rig could make that much syrup in an hour!!
My suggestion to everyone is to get around and watch other producers work in their operations--There is always something that you can learn when watching someone else! Maple schools are few and far between, and although this forum is a wealth of info, sometimes seeing truly drives home an idea.
I was truly impressed with the Verona school- to be honest, I really wasn't expecting much. 4 of us from Vermont went out, (3 of us plan the Addison County school) we were all very impressed with how well it was laid out and how smoothly it was run. The presenters were very knowledgeable and very well spoken. I took a class with Steve Childs (there's a sharp boy!)
and 2 classes with Joel Boutin (funny SOB) and sat in on the roundtable discussion with Gaudette, Bascom, Boutin, and Darveau. I think everyone in our industry needs to here what these men said about the shape of our industry. I thought your trade show was second to none, we here in VT. couldn't get all of these guys to show up at our schools. It was interesting to see the equipment being purchased at he school, as this just does not happen at a VT. school. In the equipment dealers defense, most of us here in Vt. go right to the warehouses to talk to all of these guys and to purchase our stuff when we want. Folks outside of VT. just don't enjoy this luxury.
So, once again, I congratulate the NYSMPA on an outstanding school, and I for one will be back!

[briduhunt]

I attended the conference this Saturday for the first time and I was very impressed. The croud seemed like it was well attended but not so much that one could not get to the venders for questions and product. The Veronia FFA did a very ice job as they were well orginized and everything seemed to go off with out a hitch. Koodo/s to them.
I meet and talked to a lot of people from all over and did not realize who I was talking to untill after I was home. Sorry I did noy make the connections. I did meet the new administrator and his boss (wife) but I did not realize who they were untill today. I am sorry that I did not thank them in person for this great site and all the work they put into it and will be putting into it. I did meet and thank the Maple Guys thou. May be next year wee can have our site name tags along with our real names that might help to put faces with names.
Well looking and hoping for big sap for all, and hope to meet everone next year.

[Clan Delaney]

Dave, that was Brad Dylan's presentation. I was at that one as well. I know everyone comes to these conferences for different reasons, but for me, that presentation right there was worth the price of admission. That guy had a whole Powerpoint presentation made up and had to do without it at the last minute and I never knew the difference. Unbelievable. Blew me away.

I took some notes on his recommendations as well:

Best hardwoods to burn : apple, beech, oak, locust, cherry(?)

Wood should be at least 8 months from being split and stacked, but no more than 3 years. After that it actually loses BTU potential.

The evaporation rate of a pan can be measured by square feet * .75 = maximum possible gal/hr evaporation rate. So, a pan with 100 sq.ft. surface area would have a maximum evaporation rate of 75 gal/hr. This is just for the pan, it doesn't include include efficiencies gained from preheaters.

He repeatedly stressed the need to get more air/oxygen to the fire. Said if there's such a thing as too much, he hasn't seen it. Wood will ONLY burn in the presence of oxygen. More air = more oxygen = more efficient burn (effectively use the wood's available BTU's)

Slabwood of any type should be avoided, due to it's dimensions - it resists the flow of air through stacked layers.

Make sure your grates are right side up! Upside down grates have a greater tendency for ash to build up in the V shaped grooves, blocking air flow.

More on the defoaming: foam acts as an insulator, it traps the steam. Defoaming completely allows the maximum amount of steam to leave the pan.


I think you covered everything else. This will be my first year firing with wood, graduating from (shudder) propane. These suggestions are pretty much going to be my rulebook for this season.

[Brian Ryther]

I also listened to Brad discuss wood fired evap techniques. I picked up a lot of tricks. But threw everything he said out the window after listening to the French men form Lapiere discuss there new arch Hurricane 5. It runs almost 1000 degrees hotter than traditional arches and only needs to be fired once every 40 min to 60 min. They claimed it needed to be turned down because it ran too hot. We will see.
Bottom line good show.
BR

[themapleking]

Just remember these are salesmen and they all make claims that their product is better than the other guys. Will tell you anything to get you hooked in.
At 2000 temp. Metal melts around 2200-2300. That's alot of stress on the pans. You're pans will likely be burned out after 3 seasons
A little old lady drove to church every sunday

[Brian Ryther]

With sap in the pan it does not matter how hot the fire is. It will not melt the metal. I do not think there is point where there is to much heat.

[nymapleguy607]

The point of too much heat is when there is that fire ball coming out your stack