mainline manifolds

[maple flats]

I am installing what will eventually be a wet/dry system when I add VAC. My question is, what design do you like for a manifold for branch lines. I see one in the Maple Producers manual (pg 107 in the new edition) but it looks to me like it creates a spot where the sap sets, at the bottom of the part that leads into the wet line. Looks like the PVC parts are larger (to help as VAC booster?) and then reduce to tie into the wet line thus creating a pocket at each manifold. How do you guys design your manifolds and do you get rid of the little pocket? Is it practical to make the manifolds up and down, where the wet line it teed into, go straight up to a side tee in 1 or both directions, each with a valve for that branch and then up to a vac gauge fitting, a vac valve and then up to tee into the dry line, while keeping it compact enough to be practical? What do you find works well?

[brookledge]

I built mine totally vertical with 4" scd 40 and also put in a 4" threaded plug on the top so I can open and clean it. You definately want to make the booster at least 2 times bigger than the main line and 3-4 times would be better. So if you have a 1" main I would go with 3" pvc or 4"
As for the photo on page 107, If I were doing it like that I would have more distance in height on the top half. As I look at that one I think that the dry line could draw sap up into it. But again if the diameter is big enough it can't jump up, it will fall back done into the wet line like you want.
Keith

[Brian Ryther]

Dave,
Look at my photos in my signature. There are a few verticle manifolds similar to what you described.

[Jeff E]

I built mine generally vertical, and had used smaller PVC, 1.5 and 2 inch. Most of those 'popped' on the first sub zero temp nights when they were stressed from side loads, shrinkage in the lines.
I am going to try a few different things now. Using tubing to connect the wet and dry lines, oversize pvc as noted above, and also offset vertical manifolds. Not one of those has broken on me.
They tie into the W/D from the side, with threaded Tees, so they can rotate on the theads (in theory) rather than break.
What has been others experience with durability of these?

[jason grossman]

Dave , there are some pictures of how i install dual conductors on my photo page i have never used pvc. i have always used t's y's and 1" line. it's a fairly simple system, cleans easy and i have never lost any vacuum on the branch lines. i picked this one up in quebec. they know syrup and tubing!!

[Brian Ryther]

Jason,
I looked at your photo book album and you have the nicest sugar house I have ever seen!

[maplecrest]

jason nice picture on the new maple pro wish book

[caseyssugarshack93]

thats a really nice sugarhouse and a really nice looking tubing system all mine are just wet lines but i see you have wet and dry lines . neat system



nate

[royalmaple]

That is an amazing sugarhouse, nice work. Did you do that yourself?

[jason grossman]

thanks for the kudos, we did build the sugarhouse. I harvested the trees on our farm and had them milled in our drive. the joinery was done buy our neighbor who builds timberframes, a true craftsman(one at a time buy hand). He helped us raise the frame but my family and I did all of the finishing.2+ years. the tubing is not ours, that is an install that i did in wisconsin recently, wonderful people hope to get back there again.

[maplecrest]

well tryed out my christmas present too myself today. bought a mainline tool and had to change out some main line wet dry manifolds. that were ridgid and seemed to break. thing works great. like the drop maker should have had one long ago.

[Jeff E]

Jason, like others said, beautiful work.
All you guys doing the tube connections between collector lines and the W/D line, a few questions.
1. For cleaning, I see no shut off valves on the connector. When you flush the dry line, no water goes up the connector?
2. to trouble shoot leaks, it is nice to have a valve and gauge built in. Would you just put that on the collector line, out beyond the w/d connector

[jason grossman]

jeff, every time i do an install job it is different. it just kind of depends on what the owner would like to do. we discuss many options then we go from there. i am a vary felxible person and am not stuck to one type of system. many times i don't put in ball vavles and gauges. when i wash my system i flush all out from the bottom up. i have ball valves at the end of each conductor and i open one at a time to flush. then the 5/16. when i have flushed them all i turn on my vacuum and suck water/cleaner down the wets, dry, laterals, and 5/16. good to go for the next year.
as for gauges i have one on a piece of 5/16 with a fitting on the end that i put at the end of the conductors and open a ball valve to check "Hg. it is easy to do when you walk the lines picking sticks and checking them during the season. this way i don't have to buy 15 guages.

[brookledge]

Jeff
When I built mine I put in a valve in between the dry line and the wet line so that I could wash both wet and dry lines. Otherwise when washing every time your wash comes to a booster it will drop down into the wet line like it is supose to.
Keith

[Jeff E]

I am still adding to my tube system (doing sap ladder work when it is below 10 deg. is getting a little old) and since I have being told about this connection type between the WD and the collector lines, I have put in 5 of the tube type connections. Talk about easy and saving time!!! I am putting a ball valve in the collector line so I can close it off to trouble shoot the system.
I am still putting in a PVC manifold with gauge mixed in with the tube types, so I can monitor vacuum level. I plan on having a gauge within 200' of each W/D to collector connection.

I still like the ideal of having valves and a guage at each of these connection points so I can troubleshoot the system quickly and easily, but in has to be a dependable system, not prone to breakage.
So my woods will have a mixed look, until I find what works best for me.

[jason grossman]

jeff, i just wanted to say that no matter what you do in your tubing try to keep the number of fittings, stainless or pvc, ball valves, etc,to a minimum. the more joints you have the more places there are for leaks, joint seperation, not to mention flow restriction, ice build up,and lots of crevases for things to grow.

[Parker]

I have had VERY good luck having a ball valve at the beggining of each lateral maineline with a vacuum gauge ABOVE the valve,,I can walk up the conductor line and stop at each lateral main, shut off the valve and see how fast the gauge drops,,the faster it drops, the bigger the leak,,the higher priority it is to fix,,when we turn on the vac. in the woods at the beggining of the season I have all the valves closed,,turn on one lateral main at a time so all the vac. the pump pulls is focused on that one line, this makes the leaks much louder and easier to find ,this set up has allowed me to maintain over 20" vac. and has saves me miles and miles of walking,,looking for leaks and fixing them now is MUCH quicker,,,my 2 cents

[PATheron]

Jason- I think I saw where you do custom tubing I was wondering what you charge per tap. Thanks Theron

[jason grossman]

Theron, I charge by the hour when i do a tubing job($28 hr. plus lodging).I have a different philosophy than most installers. The more help i get the cheaper it gets, so per tap is hard to caculate but if i did it all myself i am guessing it would be $4-5 per tap plus materials. As you guys know the concentration of trees, length of mains, terrian,etc. all play into the price. I hope to help as many as i can because i believe (good) tubing should be affordable for everyone who wants it! I will be available at CDL in verona if any one whats to talk, I am not sure what the rules are on doing buisness on this site so i can more later or in private emails if you would like. Jason

[PATheron]

Jason- Whats the deal with verona? Is that a special event or something? If so where is it. I was just wondering on general costs becouse I was thinking of maybe hiring a bush done. I could even work too to keep the cost down its just to put a bush in myself it takes so much time. I think im pretty fast at it. Its just a lot of work no matter how you look at it. Theron

[jason grossman]

theron, verona is where the new york state maple meetings are held. you can check the other threads here or ny maple producer association web site. It will be my first time to that one the list of speakers looks good, hope to meet new faces and pick up a nugget or two of new info.

[brookledge]

Theron
I'm suprised you wern't aware of Verona. Lots of "BIG SAP" seminars
I myself have not made it but will someday. My association offers a bus that someday I want to take them up on but my job (Highway Dept.) makes it difficult to plan more than a few days ahead. You should go
Keith

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

OK, you guys are soft. I made it 1000 miles each back in 2004 to the conference, so surely you guys can make it a lot closer. The good thing Keith is that you don't have to plan ahead of time. If the day before you can go, Jim or Tom would likely have a seat on the bus and you can pay registration at the door which is what I did.

Either way, it is an awesome conference and well worth the money.

[dano2840]

when and where is the confrence?
i would like to attend
is that the one on the 18th that UVM is doing?

[dano2840]

I have had VERY good luck having a ball valve at the beggining of each lateral maineline with a vacuum gauge ABOVE the valve,,I can walk up the conductor line and stop at each lateral main, shut off the valve and see how fast the gauge drops,,the faster it drops, the bigger the leak,,the higher priority it is to fix,,when we turn on the vac. in the woods at the beggining of the season I have all the valves closed,,turn on one lateral main at a time so all the vac. the pump pulls is focused on that one line, this makes the leaks much louder and easier to find ,this set up has allowed me to maintain over 20" vac. and has saves me miles and miles of walking,,looking for leaks and fixing them now is MUCH quicker,,,my 2 cents

im new to the vac thing and what type of a fitting do you use to have the gauge on a branch? a T with the top part threaded with reducers down to the gauge? could some one post a pic?
this would be very helpful as i am about to connect all my branch mains to the main and it would be easier to do it before i hooked every thing up.
thanks

[jason grossman]

DanO,
the info on the confrence should be on the new york page here. it is at the verona high school on jan 9+10, I here it is not one to miss.
As for the valve and guage, you can look at my pics i did'nt install them here but if i was to install them i would do like parker suggested and i would put them in after the stainless y on the 1" main valve first them the guage. probably like you were saying in a threaded t. just remember you do get quite a bit of restriction in a plastic inserted valve and t. maybe someone else would have pics of that for you. jason

[Parker]

Danno- I have used the t's with reducing bushings then the vac.gauge,,it is not the perfect set up because there are a lot of connections that will eventually leak (hasent been a problem yet),,I have heard of people simply useing a tap to thread the mainline and screwing the gauge right into that,,that might work better,,,as for restiction,,,,,as long as I am getting the same "'s of mercury at the last spile as I am at the releaser I am very happy...

[Jeff E]

I have installed gauges both ways, tapping and using threaded bushings.

Where I have tapped, I use a 1.5" piece of sch 40, with a repair collar over it. This is a 2" sleeve that slides over the PVC, 'glued' in place.
This doubles the wall thickness. In this collar I drill and tap for the 1/4" NPT threads.

[Parker]

Hey- now that sounds like a good idea,,,learn something new everyday if you are lucky....

[paul]

we use the two strap saddles to install our vac gauges. pull the 5/16 nipple out, thread with 1/4 npt,teflon tape the gauge and thread it in. works good for us
Paul

[Jeff E]

That sounds good! I will have to try that with the saddle.
I like the idea of direct connect to the tubing, rather than adding PVC and couplings.

[Amber Gold]

I'm going to start building my manifolds soon for the wet/dry system. Should the sap flow into the top of the wet line or the side of it (like Jason Grossman's)? If it comes in from the top, the flow line of the wet line is unimpeded by any flow coming in from the side. This seems to be the popular way to build them. But building it this way, the tee needs to be oversized for air/sap to separate out. In Jason's, everything continues flowing like it's supposed to...right from the branch and into the wet line.

In Jason's setup, if the wet line freezes somewheree down the line, does the sap automatically start getting sucked up the dry line? I would think that it does.

[Jeff E]

I have built the both ways, and I like the way the 'T's on top and bottom' set works, but if the wet and dry line are tensioned or stretch differently, it can be a pain getting the manifold 'vertical' again. That is why I have built most of mine with the T's coming in from the side, threaded on. They can pivot a bit if the manifold is pulled out of vertical, keeping the lines from stressing the PVC.

I also have the Grossman set up in several places, especially in places I had problems/repairs. They are quick and easy to install, and work well. The sap will go up the to the dry line when (not if!) the wet line freezes.

[Amber Gold]

The wet/dry lines are both tied to the same end trees and are side tied in the same location directly on top of on another.

What should the separation be on the wet/dry line? I'm figuring it's going to be 12" by the time you get all the fittings in. Jason's would probably get the separation down to 6-8" because there isn't a tee in the middle.

[Jeff E]

Mine are all 14". That worked for putting the fittings together pretty well. When I did the 'Jason method' I kept it at 14" for consistancy.

My wet/dry lines are all as you describe, same end trees, same side tie trees, etc. But after a year my dry line had pulled about an inch out of its original position due to stretching difference with the wet line. It is still directly over the wet line, but the manifolds are not perpendicular to the Wet/Dry lines, they are skewed about 5 degrees, putting stress on the fittings. The manifolds that have the connection T's side mounted take this stress fine, by simply rotating on the threads a bit.

Make sense?

[Amber Gold]

Like mud...I think. So you have the tees come into the wet/dry line from the side, but then 90 up or down to get into the branch line??

Are your wet/dry the same pipe material? If so, wouldn't they expand/contract the same?

Is there a downside to going with Jason's method? It sounds like it's the cheapest way to go (fewer and cheaper fittings) and solves the problem with fittings getting skewed...stress breaking and tree breaking. Does it work as well getting sap into the wet line and vacuum into the branch line?

[Jeff E]

You got it. The manifold is 'C' shaped. 'T' into treaded bushing, into a 1.5" 90 Deg elbow, into a 1.5" T (that the mainline enters) a straight piece of 1.5" that I put a gauge into (drilled and tapped, with a repair collar to double thickness of PVC) into a 90 deg elbow, bushing and upper T.

Wet/Dry lines are both blue Leader line. Dry lines are all 1", wet lines vary, either 3/4" or 1".

Jasons method works good. Good vacuum transfer to the mainlines. the only downside is that if sap is in the dry line, there is on place for it to drop into wet line. Cleaning wet and dry line is easy, if you have a threaded valve at the upper end of the lines. Cleaning the jumper line at the mainline is a problem though. I suppose I could put another valve in the mainline, between the dry line and the jumper line connection to the mainline. That way rinse water would get pulled up through the jumper....
I put a valve above the jumper on the mainline so I can isolate it from the system, and a gauge in the dry line that I can see when I close the mainline valve. Makes it real easy to see if I have a leak on that mainline.

[jason grossman]

Glad to hear the wye system works for others. some times it is not cheaper because i use stainless fitttings for good flow, strength and ease of cleaning. but pvc manifolds (glued or threaded) have a much high percentage of leaking, breakage and bacteria collection. also when you install a lot of systems you want a system that works with as few pieces as possible, is somewhat standard parts, and is easily fixable by the owner in the years to come. as mentioned before no matter how many hundreds on miles of wire you do it is hard to get the lines exactly over top of each ohter for pvc manifolds ( and have them stay there!) now if i can get everyone to use rapitube that would make my job even easier!!!!

[Amber Gold]

How is the best way to bring a lift into this. I have a mainline which comes in low, so I'm bringing it into the wet/dry via a star lift...<50 taps.

Here's what I'm thinking of doing. The top of the lift feeds directly into the wet line and the dry line will connect directly to the bottom of the lift about 5' upstream of the star fitting. I figured this would be good becuase the dry line would bring max vac. to the bottom of the lift and when the star is frozen, the sap would flow up the jumper line.

The other method is the top of the lift would tie into the wet/dry like a standard manifold connection.

Thoughts??

[red maples]

Quote: [Amber gold How is the best way to bring a lift into this. I have a mainline which comes in low, so I'm bringing it into the wet/dry via a star lift...<50 taps.

Here's what I'm thinking of doing. The top of the lift feeds directly into the wet line and the dry line will connect directly to the bottom of the lift about 5' upstream of the star fitting. I figured this would be good becuase the dry line would bring max vac. to the bottom of the lift and when the star is frozen, the sap would flow up the jumper line.

The other method is the top of the lift would tie into the wet/dry like a standard manifold connection.

Thoughts??]


Funny I asked the same question some time ago. Well the first part anyway. I was told the dry line would over ride the lift to create 2 vacuum points, inturn weakening the lift and sucking too much sap through the dry line. ..when everything was free of ice that is.

I would like to hear more thoughts on this one!!!

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

My understanding is that you don't want the dry line vacuum to go past the ladder as it will equalize the vacuum and interfere with the ladder performance. I have not tried going upstream of the ladders with a dry line so I have not verified this on my own. I have ended my dry lines at the tops of ladders in several places hoping to optimize vacuum and thus lift at the ladder.

[Brian Ryther]

[QUOTE=Thompson's Tree Farm
I have ended my dry lines at the tops of ladders in several places hoping to optimize vacuum and thus lift at the ladder.[/QUOTE]

This is the best way in my experence also. Try to get the best vac levels to the top of the ladder with a dry line. A vacuum booster line over a ladder will end up acting as an additional ladder. Ladder taps do not get as much vacuum as non ladder taps. The additional sap of ladder taps is greater than no sap at all.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks. I'll be building this next weekend. If I didn't have the lift, the taps would never get into the system. Same with the other lift I'll have. All told, they'll get me almost 100 taps.