Vt. Maplerama

[saphead]

Spent 3 days last week @ Maplerama and would like to pass on points to ponder. Thurs. sat in on a seminar on micro spouts which started off in observing the tree damage done by different size spouts(actual sections of trees brought in):7/16 resulted in a huge area of damage,5/16 only about a 1/4 to 1/3 as compared to 7/16,micro(.187 OD, .090 ID) about 1/16 damage,you could hardly notice. His test for stainless micro's was on 1100 taps and produced an amazing 23.2 gal. of sap per tap(new drops and taps,old laterals and mains). Conducted tap cleaning tests w/Cornell University, just about every method was tried including some the average person never could do. Results; stainless was difficult to clean,plastic could not be cleaned! So what this means is every time you insert a used plastic tap into a fresh tap hole the little micro organisms start to feed and multiply and close up your hole,even if you boil your used taps, sanitize them or whatever. We all know that nothing runs better than a new system! Several producers are trying the new 5/16 throw away inserts but it will be a few years before good data is available. More micro spout tests will be done and I look foward to the 2005 results. Just a thought:if hard smooth plastic like that used in spouts can't be cleaned guess what is happening in those inexpensive and well liked poly tanks when sap is left in them for any length of time... nibble nibble micro oganisms and bye bye sugar content! If you're not going to boil tonight...stainless steel and UV light! I'll add more info on sap flow from some tests @ Proctor soon.

[mapleman3]

Oh Great... I'm so depressed now :oops:

[RUSTYBUCKET]

Saphead,

Did the presenter say if the tap hole injury data was going to be published anywhere? I'd be interested in seeing that information.

What vendors were present and what equipment did they have for display? A note was sent to the fella in charge of the vendors asking him who was going to attend but he never responded back. :(


Russ

[saphead]

Sorry Jim I don't want to known as "Bummer Man". I have a hand out sheet that Bob White gave out, He's the micro spout guy: 802-899-4934(micro maple supply). Vendors:Orchard Equipment Supply,(www.oescoinc.com)- Sap Steady UV maple sap sterilizer, hand tools,Italian made articulating fowarder and tractors. L.S.Bilodeauu-(www.lsbiodeau.com) evaporator,air injection,canning tanks,really cool wood fired swimming pool heater,etc. Darveau-R.O. ,sap extractor,,tubing and tapping supplies,maybe an evaporator I can't remember.Sugarhill-plastic syrup jugs Bascoms-tapping supplies,small stuff. Algier-evaporator,air injection,canning tank,tapping supplies and tools,R.O.. Dominion and Grimm- evaporator,,maybe some canners,releasers,sap ladder air injection system(I'm going to buy one I think),tapping supplies... CDL-les equipments d'erable,evaporator,dt. sap filter,tubing,,releasers,new plastic syrup drum,maybe an R.O.,pan cleaning device. Leader-tapping supplies, R.O. ,small producer vacuum pump,etc. I,m sure I missed someone.

[mapleman3]

Thats okay :lol: , just amazing thinking we do all that work to get things clean and it's still never enough :wink:
but hey it's still a whole lot of fun aint it!!!

[saphead]

I don't mean to ramble on, but if I don't, the quality of the information in my storage tank will fade with time. Mark Isslhardt from Proctof MRC did a presentation of the 1 year results of a tapping test @ thier sugarbush which featured 3 manufacturers and thier setups.Leader,Dominion& Grimm and and ...(see what I mean, info fade). Two set ups where 2 line systems , one manufacturer chose a 1 line system.Good results where obtained by all 3,20 plus gals. per tap for the season,new clean system. All 3 where on identical vacuum w/each having it's own releaser to measure output, no names linked to results yet. Tim Wilmot, from Proctor, gave an informative talk on sap behavior in tapped trees under vacuum and without. He put pressure sensors above and below the tap and @90,180and 90 degrees from the tap. He then measured sap flow,tap pressure and pressure all over for the entire season! I wish I had copies of the charts he showed. I'll try to summerize...highest pressure reached as the tree thawed out,20 psi range, then dropped off as the run progressed to 0 psi then the tree started to go negative(vacuum on) and the negative went right through the tree! Pressure dropped first above and below the tap then traveled on throuth the tree. He did these tests with and without vacuum and with 1 tap valved on or off..From what he gathered for info ,which I agree with, short runs 2 taps will yield the most sap with a quicker but shorter duration of pressure drop, during long runs 1 tap will yield more sap due to the longer duration of pressure drop. Now if we could only predict the weather we would know how to maximize our production! For all you evaporator freaks(no names mentioned) the sugar house @ which he gave this talk had the most awsome rig I've ever seen.Leader 6x20 w/2 flue pans and 2 syrup pans all connected by a maze of stainless pipe and valves.Each syrup pan has it's own auto draw with 10" filter press.The owner can and does often run 1/2 the rig on high quality bucket sap and the other 1/2 on lower quality pipe line sap, turning out 2 grades of syrup @ the same time from the same rig! Sweet setup. He's only 1/2 hr. from my house so I'll have to stop in while he's boiling some time. He did acheive a max. out put of 85 gal. of syrup from 1 cord of wood...R.O. sap going in only @ 6%... non airtight arch! Well I seem to have run out of steam for now and I don't thick I'll refire.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Saphead,

With the 6 x 20 Leader going full blast, how many gallons per hour of syrup could he make using raw saw and also sap that has been thru an RO if he tested it both ways.

Sure would have been something to see! :D :D

[Parker]

Saphead-- Awsome info......So, 85 gallons of syrup from 1 cord of wood meaning he boiled down 3570 +/- gallons of sap with 1 cord? or am I missing something??? Parker

[saphead]

Parker, I neglected to note when he achieved the 85gal/1cord ratio he also had his Rayhiby Ecoonomiser on line. I'm sure your going to ask ;"a what?", so here goes. Picture a stainless box roughly 8 foot square by 6 feet tall filled with shallow trays which inturn are fiiled with sap at a shallow depth.This stack of trays has to be perfectly"dailed in" for the system to work properly.The sap enters @ the top tray and exits @ the bottom tray..Entering one side of the economiser is a roughly 20 inch stack wich contains all the steam from the 2 flue pans,the economiser steam exit is vented to atmosphere. If I remember correctly this unit adds 50% efficiency to the evaporation process. His 6x20 will do around 500 gph (steam hoods w/preheaters) add economiser=750 gph.,6% sap going in from RO,9% coming out of economiser. Jones rule of 86: 86/9 =9.55gal/sap to gal/syrup. 9.55gal./sap to gal./syrup ratio x85gal. syrup/cord of wood=812 gal. boiled off. 1 cord burned up in 1.1 hrs! Rathiby Economisers went the way off the iron kettle when RO's came onto the seen. 85gal/syrup @ 2%=85x43=3655 gal of sap processed by RO,economiser, preheater,evaporator. ( the above material may or may not be accurate do to the unknown "maple factor" which must always be taken into account)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Saphead,

Man you are a genius at this stuff. Sure would be a ton of fun to see an operation like that in action. Oh well, no one down here makes syrup so I guess I will have enough fun watching my 2x8 which should rock this year. I am adding a hood, preheater, Leader blower and an airtight front, so I would like to think I can get 60 gph, but I'll see. I am going to plan for 50 gph, but I could get lucky and do 60+. :roll: :roll:

Good luck to all as it is getting closer! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Parker]

That is like being in math class,keep going I am writing all this down , great info,,,I keep thinking how lucky I was to find this site ,,,thanks for the intell.....Parker.......................a RAYHIBY ECONOMISER.......I love it!

Question??From reading the above posts, The Rayhiby Economiser is a box that sits on the top of the flue pan like a preheater box ?? How is the flow of sap maintained in the trays then to the float box .??How deep are the trays and is the box covered on top or open ?? If I'm understanding this is what it is, it'd be much easy to make than a copper preheater.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

It may be a lot easier to make, but with the price of stainless, it would cost a fortune. I bought everything I need to make a preheater for my 2x8 including solder, flux and other misc items for around $ 100.

[saphead]

Oops... Rayhiby is actually Rathiby, the y lives next to the t on the keyboard and my typing leaves a lot to be desired. My apologies to Ray Hiby where ever you are. The economiser trays are shallow,picture giant cookie sheets with little baffles at the exit where it flows down to the next level. Setting these monsters up is a nightmare to say the least, the right depth and flow must be maintained in each tray and the flow must keep up with the evaporator. The economiser lives in a room a little higher than the evaporator. The steam is supplied from the hood over both flue pans,6'x12' total of flue pan steam,the steam can be vented to atmosphere or directed into the economiser by adjusting dampers. Economiser is a closed box,steam in and steam out.Speaking of dampers,a lot of oilheads are putting baometric dampers on thier stacks and increasing thier burner efficiency (spelling?),may be worth playing with on a wood fired rig, we all want to boil sap not heat the air! I know air injection at the begining of the flue pan helps to burn uncombusted gases why not try a damper too? It would be fun to play with flue gas temp. to optimise the boil and the wood consumption. I remember back when I used to fire big boilers they all had both forced draft and induced draft fans and we used to keep them a hair negative ... hmmm

[mapleman3]

I have a Wood fired Boiler in the cellar, it doesn't call for a barometric damper as does my oil fired boiler which sits next to it, BUT if I was to use coal in it I would according to the manual, have to install a barometric damper, WHY I just don't know, I know on oil it is to control the correct amount of draft "over the fire" the more air let in through the damper -the less draft over the fire.... so not sure what that would do th a wood fire, ah these questions that come up when we have nothing better to do ;)

[sugaring42long]

Heres a little more info on the economizer. The main reason it never really caught on with many producers was because it tends to lower the grade of syrup produced and it was not very efficient. Those big trays full of hot but not yet sterilized sap are perfect for bacterial growth.
The steam-away gets sap hot enough to sterilize it and it is a lot more efficient.
I was surprised to see them still using it as most were retired years ago.
I went on the tour also and was really impressed with this operation. The syrup handling and bottling room was real nice.

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

Another thing i noticed on the economizer was that it was not "Steam tight" you could look below the bottom tray and see the floor. Good chance that the efficency could be upgraded by making it air tight.