Arch board and Bricking

[mapleman3]

So I have searched and didn't find much just pertaining to arch board and brick installation(I could have read thru everything but...)

My arch board should be delivered next week, what are your thoughts on adhearing it to the arch or dry fit?

also does the mortar stick to it with the bricks or just mortar brick to brick?

When I bought my old 2x6 it was already bricked......

so I am a NOOOOOOOO BEEEEEEE on this :)

[Russell Lampron]

I didn't use or even know about arch board when I bricked my 2x6 but you just cut it to fit and put it in with no adhesive, the bricks hold it in place when you cement them together.

[3% Solution]

Hi Jim,
When I did my arch I dry layed the board and cemented the bricks together.
What a difference, alot less heat loss!!
I guess it worked, it hasn't fallen in yet!!
I don't know if I am right or wrong, but it's worked.

Dave

[mapleman3]

I'm not sure if my 2x6 had arch board, I kinda think not, there was some scorching on the sides of the sheet mtl, so I figure I will super insulate and keep that heat in.. I have insulated doors too which will help a lot!!

[3% Solution]

Jim,
That arch board is pretty dense stuff.
Like I said in my other post it sure keeps the heat in.
The sides of the arch still get hot, but most of the heat is held back into the arch.
In years past I would be in a tee shirt boiling, last year a sweatshirt is about as far as I would go.
Years past the wife loved the warmth, last year she became a heater hugger right at the doors (which aren't insulated).
Maybe I should put my milkhouse heater under her chair this coming spring.

Dave

[mapleman3]

I hear you on that, when I was running oil, I would freeze because it was so insulated! hopefully the sugarhouse will be warmer using wood, even with the addition!

[Haynes Forest Products]

On my first wood fired we used small machine screws to hold in in place and it was more to strighten out the sheet metal sides and make it look better. Plus more is better I think.

[RileySugarbush]

The arch board is pretty dense but it does have a little give. Enough that if you arrange your brick right, you can use the board to hold them tight and you done need the refractory cement. Two seasons on mine and the bricks are still in place.

[partsrus1974]

Dido...I put 1 " board in my evaparator then laid the brick in on top of it..Its been in there 2 seasons no problems.Now u can touch the sides of the evaparotor after hours of boiling.I also used it on my front doors,on the outside.I cut 2 pieces of metal a little smaller then my doors and sandwitched the insulation between the doors then bolted the plates on.

[The Sappy Steamer]

I just set my board in place and mortared the edges of the bricks. No mortar on the flat side of the brick between the brick and board. That's the way the man at D & G suggested I do it. Works real well that way.

[mapleman3]

And Thats the way I will do it, I'll get the board in tight and have the bricks hold it in... seems to be the way everyone does it

I'll keep ya posted with pics if I remember, now if my board will come in so I can get going on it!!! I think all the storms slowed things down.

[mapleman3]

anyone out there with a 3x8 raised flue want to measure how far back the top of the slope is on the flue pan? i'm thinking maybe 10" back from the front of the flue pan is about where my brick could go... not sure if more or less space than that up to the flues is better

[tuckermtn]

I was told by leader a few weeks ago that 12" from front of flue pan to top front of ramp...sounded like that was universal for all raised flu arches...but could be wrong...

[mapleman3]

Ahhh finally my second shipment of archboard arrived today, and this time I was here so it didn't get lost/stolen!!

So reading way back through the years of posts... some have suggested that the back slope is getting more squared off? so as not to slope as much but go straight up??

So if I was to do that and still be back from the front of the flue pan 10-12" it would give more area for wood or less? still hashing this out.

[tuckermtn]

Jim- yes- you'll loose more space in the firebox if you brick more steeply. I am just finishing my retro-fit to bring my ramp closer to the front of the flu pan. So I don't have a sense if the smaller firebox loss will be made up for by the efficiency gain in the flu pan. My sense is that since the flu pan is where the most evaporation is going to happen, I want to maximize the amount of heat up in there. most of my wood is 24" long- so the loss of firebox isn't too much of a big deal...but again this is just speculation...

-eric

[dano2840]

i would slope it to about 2" from the flues,
my 2 cents

[Russell Lampron]

Jim you shouldn't have to change the slope much in your Algier arch. The one in my 2x6 is just about perfect. I have seen some arches where the slope goes all of the way back to the middle of the flue pan. Those are the ones that need to have the slope changed so that the fire is directed into the flues sooner.

DanO if you have a raised flue like Jim does you need to have as much space as the opening for the base stack or a little bigger at the front of the flue pan. Two inches would work with a drop flue.

[RileySugarbush]

The most I would bring it forward would be until the area of the exposed flues in front of the slope equals the area of the flues plus the gap below the flues. That way you have a constant flow area through the transition. If you bring it forward of that you may choke off the draft and if it is significantly further back you may be giving up some efficiency.

[dano2840]

i thought his rig was drop but i didnt know that about raised flues.

[mapleman3]

Russ I think the slope does end up around 16-18" back ... i think way too much even with adding board and brick, I wish it was less... seems a pain to reslope.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Mine ramps almost straight up and comes up right at the front of the flue pan. As far as Jim's, he shouldn't have to worry much about it as The Maple King was running it at 100 gph and sometimes higher.

[mapleman3]

I have to check with him and see how much of a slope he had... was it right against the existing metal or built up at all..... I have seen him on but no posts... guess I may have to "HUNT" him down in Verona....

MapleKing........ JOE WHERE ARE YOU?????

[RileySugarbush]

With a drop flue the firebox can be straight up since the flues are open on the front. That is how I built mine. With raised, the forward part of the pan bottom needs to be exposed.

I think in natural draft arches they exposed a lot more than is needed with forced draft.

[mapleman3]

Yeah mine has forced air and air grates.... good sized at that... should be a ton of air!!


one way or another I'm starting on it tomorrow.... may end up just walking around it and thinking too much though!! ;)

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I've got pics of Joe's evaporator somewhere he sent me a long time ago of the inside bricked. I will dig them out tonight and give me a shout around 8 tommorrow morning on my cell phone!

[mapleman3]

Started Bricking today, Picked up a diamond blade for the circ saw and went at it... got the firs coarse in, which seems to be the hardest cuts due to the angles... 50 bricks won't be enough, I'll have tobuy some more full and a few more half

I can't build a fire in it yet so as I go up a course I have a douple headed halogen work light almost laying on it... gets the bricks and refractory cement nice n toasty for a few hours.... seems like it works

[gator330]

Mapleman3

Where did you get the arch board from???? Can't find it or any one that knows what it is around here. Will have to order it in.

What if I don't get it, would I be Ok to just bick the arch with the thicker brick and boil????

[gator330]

Ok, never mind, I found it (Arch board) When I was ordering a few little things from Chris he said they have it. I kinda remember Kim asking if I need it when I ordered the evaporator, but I didn't get what she was saying at the time. Got it now!!! I feel better knowing It's on it's way!!!! There may be syrup made here yet this year!!!!! Off to the store to get Brick now.

[mapleman3]

The bricking is coming along... have to go get some more tomorrow... I'm hoping to have it done tomorrow night!

[Amber Gold]

Jim, Are you using arch board and full brick up to the last course where you'll swap out for a half brick. I have a 2.5x8 raised flue that I'll need to brick in the next week or two and was thinking of going this route.

[mapleman3]

Josh ,that's exactly what I'm doing. The last course will fit perfectly under the rail!

[Amber Gold]

Jim, how are you adjusting the slope of your ramp? I have the same problem where the top of the ramp is 27" into my flue pan.

[mapleman3]

I'm just bricking on the archboard laying on the metal slope , my slope has a sheet metal in place with vermiculite behind it. Then I layed insul board on it then bricked up. Its around 15" from front of flue pan.

[Amber Gold]

I'm about 27" into the flue pan on a 5'-6" flue pan. So on top of your sheet metal ramp you just put vermiculite to adjust the slope then arch board to provide a stable base for your brick?

[mapleman3]

I already have a second slope out of metal.. so I had that behind the archboard.... you could maybe do as your saying but I think a simple sheet metal slope for you a bit closer to the front of the pan will do for you

[themapleking]

Jim get off the **** computer and get you a@# in gear. You still have to tap that new woods.
I got my rig all together. Leader inferno arch, max flue pan, steam away, revolution ft pan, hood and double wall insulated smoke stack.
That amish guy did a hell of a job on the hood and smoke stack.
Now have to get going on tubing up the new section.

[mapleman3]

Working on that Joe.... I am just about finished with the bricking... should be done tonight.....(Hopefully) I will be in the woods Sunday/Monday. I have a Mass maple annual mtg on Sat.

I would like to have the evap back together by mid next week so I can start plumbing the the feed...also have to cut the stack hole.. darn snow keeps getting on the steep/slippery/dangerously scary/roof!!

[Amber Gold]

3% gave me a good idea to resolve the steep/slippery/dangerously scary/roof!! problem and it worked out well. screw some 1"x3 slats onto the high points of your metal roofing. Works out well to give you a "ladder" to climb up the roof and a stable footing when you're working up there. When you're all done just remove them on your way down and install the metal roofing screws in its place.

[gator330]

I just finished put the arch board in my evaporator!!! Having never done it before it was a snap!!!! I wish my goings on in the chicken coup weren't a total "hide from the wife." I would of had her tap it and put it on utube so all could see how easy it is. So, for those of you who have never done it, it's easy! The arch board cuts with a pocket knife. A few cuts along your line and you are through, slide it in place and on to the next piece. Can't wait to do the next "Bigger" evaporator!!! The bricks are fitting in nicely it's a small evaporator so a lot of cuts need to be made. Will work on that when I can pull out the wet saw. Way to cold for one of those today. Unless I pull it into the basement. Be hard to hide that!!!

[NYMaple]

Hello all --- I am looking to get some arch board to use on a new home-built evaporator. I can't seem to find it online... can anyone send me a link? Maybe I'm calling it the wrong thing trying to search for it in google...

Thanks!!!

Chet

[gator330]

I ordered it (Arch Board) right from The Maple Guys. Got it in three days put it in last weekend, it was so easy. I couldn't find it local not shure why?? I just finished bricking the arch today. Dad was over I sized and fitted brick he cut. Mason blade on a circler saw was a snap!!! Fitted it ( Small only 50 full brick )layed it out and mortered it with refractory morter. I can't wait to do a larger one in the future!!!! Set up stack Saturday I hope. May be a fire in it yet this year.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

www.mapleguys.com

[Amber Gold]

Using standard practice with bricking ramp up to top of rails for raised flue and using vermiculite to bring the back of the ramp up and dropping it back down. In the back section of the arch around the stack collar is one layer of arch board sufficient for thermal protection of the arch or is more required? Also, what’s the distance to collar that you bring the ramp back down? Is it 12” or the width of the base stack, which in my case is 8”?

[mapleman3]

I finally finished the arch, took a day off today, I started a web album so I could show the pics, feel free to browse I will add more later. I took a few of the guys here ideas , went with a bed of morter over the vermiculite. I hope it holds up to the heat. we'll see how it does this year.
Set the pans and ready to do a cleaning... if I had the stack through the roof!!! everytime I think about it ...IT SNOWS !!!

[mfchef54]

Mapleman
Nice photos.

[Amber Gold]

Jim, nice pics. It answered some of my questions...and created more.

Did you use standard mortar or some kind of high temp stuff? I can't tell from the pics, but is your back ramp vertical except for the step or is there a slope to it? How tight did you fit the bricks to your grates? I have the forced draft grates as well and I'm not sure how much they're going to expand.

[mapleman3]

I used regular mortar on the vermiculite.. the ready mix stuff and layed a bed of it maybe 3/8 to 1/2 " thick and kept spraying with water to have it harden a bit, hopefully it holds up. also I mortared over some fire brick in the back. leaving about 7" deep for the flue gases...

on the firebrick I used high temp refractory pre mixed stuff...

I have a 1/4 " or more for the grates .. hoping the grates don't expand too much:o

I added more pictures of stuff tonight... thanks for looking

[Amber Gold]

I was playing around some more tonight with bricking my arch and I figured out a nice way to have my back ramp be vertical and made out of just brick. Any reason why the back section of the fire box shouldn't be vertical up to arch rails? The front of the bricks will still be 12" into the flue pan.

[Cardigan99]

Josh, I think you may get some turbulence there and restrict the airflow if you drop straight down.

[RileySugarbush]

some turbulence = goodness

[mapleman3]

as said before, some evaps now don't use a slope up... it would be worth seeing how it would boil!! wanna be a guinea pig for us??? ;)

[Amber Gold]

I’m not scared. I’ll be the guinea pig… I thought the whole point of the fire box was to create turbulence…

When I posed questions on the drop flue I had it was recommended to build a vertical wall in the back. I wasn’t sure if the same principle would apply for a raised flue, but didn’t see why it wouldn’t. I’ll brick it vertical and take photos.

When I was initially heard of using mortar on top of the vermiculite to keep it in place I was envisioning just sprinkling/pour the dry mortar on top of the vermiculite and pouring water on it to give the vermiculite a stable surface. I wasn’t thinking of creating a full mortar bed on top. Preference either way??

[Cardigan99]

I'll admit, I'm not the most knowledgable guy on the subject but wouldn't a firebox with a vertical back be more suited to a drop flue setup as opposed to a raised flue?

PS Where are you guys getting vermiculite this time of year?

[tuckermtn]

Cardigan- I've got some vermicultie for you...stop over you can check out Parkers tubing set-up and grab some vermiculite for the ride home...

-Eric

[Amber Gold]

I've posted pictures of my bricked arch. I went with the vertical wall in the back. I just stacked them and installed vermiculite behind them so if I don't like the way it works it'll be easy to dismantle and modify. The only thing I have left to do is to install a light coating of dry mortar and moisten it to create a stable top to the vermiculite. I ended up with a 1/4" gap between the grates and between the grates and the brick.

[michigan maple]

finishing new arch 3x12,board and 1/2 brick....how should i set up the ash pit,does it need to be bricked?.....will be useing forced air.....thanx john

[Amber Gold]

You need to seal the bottom with a piece of sheet metal. I just bolted it to the bottom of the bent sheets.

[gator330]

I just laid a layer of 1 1/2 in fire brick in the bottom of mine. Brought it up just over the bottom iron for easy clean out. Only have a penny, not able to cover the two cents yet, But that is what I did, it works.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If the bottom of the evaporator arch firebox is completely flat, I have a piece of 1" ceramic blanket that seals mine to floor and works great and protects floor too!

[barkeatr]

YEs...IM A Bit behind..im bricking my new lapierre waterloo small 2x6. do you put a mortar bed between the insul board and the firebrick?

how thick is the mortar bed over the vermiculite?'

i cut a 45 degree wedge out of my upagainst the top rail to allow full exposure of the pain to heat..this was a big pain! I left enought "meat" on the brick to withstand heat.

my directions call for a 1/4"' space between the rail at the top of the slope to the bottom of the pan...so I assume no mortar should go on top of this steel rail. I guess this is similiar to the throat on a fire place..

luckily the fast start to the season didnt really go that fast up here in the great white north..I have a really cold sugarbush.

thanks in advance!

BARKEATER