Vertical Pipe Sap Ladder

[ennismaple]

We finished up the sap ladder in our new bush on the weekend. One of the 3/4" mainlines that come to it has 70 taps, the other 3/4" mainline has 103 taps. The upper mainline is 1". Since there are 173 taps we would have needed 3 spiders. I decided to try a double vertical pipe ladder instead. I put in 3/4" tees on the bottom, 1" to 3/4" 90 degree bends on top and joined the two sides on top at a 1" tee. On the bottom I joined the ends of the two mainlines together to equalize the vacuum and the flow up the pipes. Between the two lower tees I added another tee with a 3/4" ball valve to allow us to drain the lower lines at the end of the season.

I'm hopeful that this should work well. If it doesn't it's pretty easy to replace with 3 spiders. Here's some pics:

[Haynes Forest Products]

ennismaple well that is as simple as it gets. Is this a design that you have seen work? how high is it 8-10 ft? Have you vacuum tested the system this year and how about a vac guage on the drain side Thanks

[maplwrks]

Ennis---I think it will work better with a 1/2" line between them. I think you will find that the sap will go part way up the verticle and drop back down. I think that once you get the pipe full, you will lose your vacuum.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Will the bottom cross over pipe cause one line to lift better than the other? I like the simple design so can we stick to tweaking it

[ennismaple]

Keep the comments coming - that's why I posted this!

I figured the cross over pipe will equalize the lift on both sides of the ladder. Since one side has 30 more taps than the other it would be more full than the other side. I'll definitely watch it early in the season to see how it's working and will check the vacuum levels top and bottom. The lift is just under 8'.

My thinking about the 2 x 3/4" pipes was this: Conventional wisdom says you should have a spider for every 65 taps. That means I would need 3 spiders for 173 taps. A spider made up of 6 x 5/16" lines has an end area of 0.383 square inches. Three spiders would be 1.149 square inches of end area. A single 3/4" pipe has an end area of 0.442 square inches so 2 pipes is 0.884 square inches or 77% of the end area for 3 spiders. Using 2 x 1/2" pipes would only have an end area of 0.393 square inches - barely more than a single spider.

If it doesn't work it's easy to change!

We've got another spot where we plan to put in a double spider to lift sap over a bush road. Last year we had to take the mainline where it crosses our haul road down every time we gathered from our New Bush. My brother suggested we lift it 8' with a sap ladder to get it over the road so we don't have to stop the tractor, take the mainline down, pull the tractor forward and put the mainline back up (and repeat on the return trip) every time we gathered. It should be a big time saver and won't result in any more sap loss than we already had because of the number of times the vacuum had to be turned off on those 90 taps. I'll post more pics once it's built.

[adk1]

that just looks like alot of work and alot to maintain

[DS Maple]

As I look at those pictures I can't help but to think that both of the lower "t"s should be inverted so that any sap in the line falls down in order to be sucked up. The way it is now, or so it appears, the mainline would have to be full for liquid to reach the opening on the "t". If it were me, I would make two glued pipe assemblies that essentially make a 180 degree corner. I would also replace the existing "t"s with ones that have a threaded fitting on top so that the glued assembly could thread right in, avoiding little short pieces of line and hose clamps. Also, where the ladder lines join the top mainline, I would have them empty in from the top instead of being level as they are.

I still don't know if that would work, but it's what I would try. Again though, I could be looking at it wrong.

[maplecrest]

my thought is if it does not work add a little air from your drain valve to generate some turbulance and the sap will go up.or have a small leak at the end of each side and it will work.had a lift that just would not work put a small cut on an end tee and that little bit of air solved the problem and did not effect my vac level. was 22 when i started and 22 after i solved the problem

[Haynes Forest Products]

I do agree with the size of the air bubbles if you have a large vertical pipe the air will blast past without lifting the sap. If you watch air bubbles from a diver you will see that the air starts out as big bubbles and break up into alot of small ones and small bubbles wont move alot of sap in a large pipe path of least resistance and that is around the water.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

i agree with DS MAPLE i think your fittings at the bottom should point down so the T fills then the sap gets sucked up, then the top should be up so the sap falls down into the main line also think you will have to crack the valve to let bubbles in. the bigger the run the more bubbles

RICH

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

What about a 1/2" inverted for liquid and a 3/4 upward for vacuum.

[ennismaple]

What I've built is essentially the same as what Wheelers Maple did for the 2002-2003 OMSPA research paper that you can read here:

http://www.ontariomaple.com/index.php?action=display&cat=38&doc=2004_summary_sap_ladder_project-Final_Rep_June_2304.pdf

It ranked the side by side 2 pipe ladder (with valve) as the most effective for lifting sap. I left out the valve because the ladder is in a location where it's not easy to get to so we wouldn't be likely to turn it on and off depending on flows. The trap bottom, which would function the same as turning the tees down, was ranked 4th behind the 2-pipe ladder, star ladder and single pipe ladder.

I'll give this a try come spring and if it doesn't work it'll take 30 minutes to change over to a 3 spider (star) ladder.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

sounds like it should work yours looks like theirs. i am in the process of installing my releaser and it will contain a ladder. might try this setup also

RICH

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

That is probably the same info that is in the design, installation, and maint. manual that was put out by Chapeski and Staats and it had a 2 pipe ladder in the book.

[nymapleguy607]

I am just curious but how high can you go with a sap ladder? I ask because I am thinking about trying them to move some sap out of the woods to a better collection point. Also could you tell me how do you keep them from freezing up those are my main concerns. thanks Jeff

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

there is a few good links that were written about this subject= "Lift" thread started by PATheron comes to mind in the vacuum section. Also "sap Ladders" by Spike in the vacuum section...

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

MAPLEGUY

I have 3 ladders on my mainline and i either drain them at night or if i leave vac on till freeze up next morning i use hot water to thaw things out

RICH

[ennismaple]

We let ours freeze. All our sap ladders are to pick up taps that we couldn't get otherwise so I'm not overly worried that we maybe miss a bit of sap because there's no vacuum while it thaws out.

Once the temperature gets above zero it doesn't take long for the vacuum to start pulling sap through the ice. Once that starts the blockage is gone quickly.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I would think that drop lines would be more of a problem freezing. I let my vacuum run untill most of the sap has quit running so I dont have full mains and branch lines. Most of the drop lines seem to end up with small amounts of frozen sap in the loop. I would expect that ladder would be the least of the problem. Now for the million dollar question what freezes first the tree cambium or the sap line with moving sap under vacuum?

[Russell Lampron]

I got to see how my new 2 pipe sap ladder works today. It works great. The only thing that you may want to change on yours ennismaple is the 2 pipes that run up and down. You should use the blue pipe that you have coming into the bottom so that you can see the sap being pulled up. It will be easier to adjust the air flow that way. With a 12 pack of boiling sodas I could watch mine all day. Click on the Sp 22 and lines album in my photobucket to see pictures of it.

[Brian Ryther]

Russ, I also "waste" too much time watching my sap ladders. I also add air to my ladders to help the sap ift up the ladders. I was wondering if any one does not add air to help the ladders lift the sap?

[TapME]

Nice pics Russ. The setup looks real good. When are you going to boil?

[Big maple]

It is pretty funny how mezmorizing sap ladders can be.We watched the first one we put in for quite a while, just standing there in the rain getting soaked watching water go up a tube, amazed that something we built actually worked instead of catching on fire and exploding.

[Russell Lampron]

My ladder is 9' tall. I add a little air to help the lift, it doesn't take very much. I tried it with the air valve closed and it still worked but was a lot slower.

Going to get the membrane back into the RO and boil tomorrow. If it ran as well as I think it did overnight I should be close to the 300 gallons that I want to start boiling by the end of the day.

[sapman]

Russ, how many taps do you have on that two-pipe ladder? Any idea what the max # is for that type, with 3/4"?

Thanks,
Tim

[Russell Lampron]

Tim right now I have 173 taps on it, the last 38 added yesterday afternoon, but by the end of next weekend I should have over 300. I don't know where it will max out but it seems like it can handle a lot more taps than I have on it. I have a 1" mainline coming into it and that is also what it goes into to go to the releaser. The vertical pipes are 3/4" so they can handle the volume of the 1" main without a problem.

Does anyone know how many taps a 1" mainline without a dry line will handle? I have the potential to get well over 1000 on mine.

[sapman]

Thanks, Russ! I think I may have 300+ on the mainline that I need to lift about 12-13'. I also have 1" on the top and bottom of the ladder location. So that's about 5 stars, but more if I'm more like 4-500 taps. That's a lot of stars in line, seeming almost stupid. A commercial lifting system would be great, but that's out of the question this year. If this two-pipe system works as well as puported on the Ontario site, that would be a MUCH easier way to do this.

Leader says in their catalog that 500 is max on 1". But I wonder if this needs to be rethought in light of sap lifting. Does a dry line work to get vac beyond the ladder to a spot farther up the mainline, without hurting the lifting capability?

Lots to consider, and I'd like to have this completed by end of the week to tap!

Tim

[Russell Lampron]

With the price of the 5/16" tubing hovering around $60 a roll and the cost of the star fittings, tees and clamps the 2 pipe system is a lot less expensive to build. I am wondering the same thing about the dry line past the ladder too. I would also think that if the 2 pipes weren't enough to handle the capacity a 3rd pipe could be easily added.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Hey Guys,
I may be able to give you an answer about the dry line in a few weeks. I have one set up like that. I connected the dryline to the wet line at the top of the ladder and to the lower wet line about 30 feet before it gets to the ladder. After I get some sap weather and get tapped and the vacuum going, I'll let you know. Ladders are all new to me but I hope they work. Have a total of 21, both commercial lifts and different styles of ladders.
Doug

[sapman]

I would like to install a commercial lift, as I may have upwards of 800-1000 eventually, all coming in at basically the same spot.  I spoke with one of the experts from VT this morning, and he said his testing actually showed more consistent vacuum transfer with the stars.  He knows guys with 20 stars at one spot!  Since that seems a rather tried and true method, I guess I'll just do that for now.  I don't feel I can afford to risk production at this point (not that I'm totally convinced which is best yet).  And the cost of the commercial thing is prohibitive this year.In trying to come up with an answer for overuse of combo tees and clamps, I've decided to make up a manifold of tees and bushings out of sch. 40.  Total cost per tee should be a little over $1, my price.  Should be an interesting spider web when I get all the 5/16ths connected between!ps.  I will await the two-pipe verdict anxiously!Tim

[ennismaple]

I will await the two-pipe verdict anxiously!Tim

Me too! If it wasn't so friggin cold I could get some sap in those lines to see how it works!

[PATheron]

Russ- I kind of figure 250 on a piece of 3 quata and 800 on a single 1". Not sure thats to "code". Just kind of what Ive picked up talking to the big guys. Wheeler was the one told me 250 on a 3 quarter line and no more than 1500' I think was his thought. I dont run anywhere near 800 on a single 1" but thats what Ive heard guys say. Theron

[PATheron]

Ive had 800 roughly on a one inch with a dry over top and itll run a pretty big stream. I think if it wasnt graded perfect youd loose vac transfer without the dry line. Pretty big stream of sap, somtimes itll look like a garden hose. Theron

[Big John]

Do not cut holes to get air. and from what I have seen you will never get the sap you should with a lift sap flows down hil!!! you should put in a tank releser with a deep well pump. put the pipe under ground if possible, that way it won't freeze.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Big John,
Those deep well pumps don't work very well 2 miles from electricity. We do what we gotta do........

[Russell Lampron]

That's an issue here too. The electricity is 1500' away form the sap ladder. Eventually a tank and releaser will take the sap ladders place but for now it is the most cost effective way to get more taps online.

[ennismaple]

I stood and watched my double pipe ladder for a few minutes yesterday. It was impressive. The two pipes would "fight" for the sap and as one got higher than the other the sap would rush back & forth between the pipes. Eventually, the sap would reach the top and it would all rush up to the top very quickly, then it would start over again. The whole thing shakes as the lines fill up and the sap moves around. So far I'm impressed with it. I'm not sure exactly how well it works compared to using 3 spiders instead but for now it stays.

[Russell Lampron]

Ennis glad to see that you have had a chance to see your sap ladder work. Like you I am pretty impressed with mine. I am getting good vacuum transfer through it too.

[Amber Gold]

I'm building a 2-pipe ladder for this season. It'll be two 1-inch lines w/ approximately 400 taps on it. The lift will start at 15' and if I'm happy with that then I'l increase it to 18' (get's me 1.5% slope on the high line). Pretty much all of my taps will be going through this lift.

What were your conclusions from last year? Did it work well, any issues, freeze ups, modifications for this year...etc.

Thanks

[ennismaple]

To be honest, I rarely saw the 2-pipe ladder all season. It`s the furthest point from the sugar camp and with the BIG SAP we had I spent very little time in the woods. How well it was working was the least of my worries!

[Amber Gold]

Ennis, thanks for the update.

I think I may have problems with freezing at night and getting it thawed out in time for the morning's run due to a church to the east of my sap ladder blocking the sun. I've modified the 2-pipe ladder with a third pipe w/ a valve which would be used until the lines thawed out. Once that happened, the valve would be closed and sap would travel up the 2-pipe ladder. I've attached a sketch.

Thoughts??