Bricking/Arch Modifications

[Amber Gold]

I've read the posts on bricking an arch and have some further questions. I have 2.5'x6.5' Grimm Arch. At this point I'ved bricked and cemented the firebox up to the top of the ramp and am debating on bricking the back section of the arch. I have a drop flue pan and need to bring the bottom of the arch up so it's within 1/2" of the flues, which is about 2.25". On reading the other threads I was going to use vermiculite, but with having a blower with the forced draft grates I'm wondering if the vermiculite is going to stay in place. Will it/won't it? And if not vermiculite what are other options that will? In place of vermiculite I was considering adding more insulation blanket.

I also want to change the shape of my ramp. Currently the top of the ramp is 2 ft into my 4ft long flue pan, which I think is too far. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm thinking of having the top of the ramp be even with the front of the flue pan or 12 inches into it. Which is better and what are methods to accomplish this, keeping in mind that I can't weld?

Thanks

Josh

[peacemaker]

well yes your vermiculate will go up the chimney so use it and the lay some brick on it 1/2 bricks ... or one year i used some old ceramic tile a few cracked but they held up ok
as far as bring your ramp forward do u know anyone that welds ...

[RileySugarbush]

You probably won't be surprised to hear I think you should have no slope at all. Straight up at the back of the firebox, maybe to a height above your flues if the firebox doesn't extend past the syrup pan. With forced combustion air, you will get plenty of draft and your heat exchange to the pans will be improved with the flow forced up against them.

Regarding the insulation, how about 1" ceramic blanket on top of any old brick laid loose as spacers? The blanket insulates so well, it doesn't even need to be fire brick.Or arch board/ mineral wool board would work well under the blanket,too.

[Amber Gold]

Peacemaker - I do know someone who can weld and may be interested in helping me out.

John, Are you saying at the end of my grates create a vertical wall up to the height I need to provide the 1/2" clearance to the flues? I have a ceramic blanket now, 1" I think, on all sides and bottom. The firebox has split brick over the insulation. The bottom needs to come up another 2.25" over the insulation that's there. Where can I get insulation blanket, arch board, and/or mineral wool board and what is approximate cost and which is preferable?

[peacemaker]

have him weld you a set of pipes to stack your bricks against and to fill in behind them ...

[NYScott]

You are in luck. I have in my possesion the document from Grimm with the measurements you seek.

THe top of the ramp up to bottom of the raised flue pan from the firebox should be exactly 12" back from the front of your back pan. The ramp down should be 18" in from the front of your stack I hope this helps.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Ebay has insulation and at a good price it will get used.

[peacemaker]

and the maple guys have the arch board as well as the blanket material

[Amber Gold]

HFP - can you point me in the right direction on what to search for? I did a search and there's a lot of insulation on there.

Peacemaker - I spoke to Chris yesterday and he's supposed to get me some prices.

Thanks

[Grade "A"]

I got some off ebay and it worked great. Search under "ceramic blanket"

[peacemaker]

cool cant remeber what i paid for my arch board

[Justin Turco]

http://www.infraredheaters.com/insulati.htm#Secure%20Online%20Credit%20Card%20Ord ering%20-%20SSL%20Encryption

This is a place that also sells the ceramic insulated blanket. I am going to buy a roll sometime. "Durablanket S" 50 square feet (2 feet wide by 25 feet long.) for 110.00. I think this is the same stuff that leader sells.

I'm sure you know this but, Put a piece in between your syrup and flue pan. Doesn't have to be full thickness if it messes up the plumbing between your syrup and flue pan. And put 2" strips under your pans where they meet with the top rail on your arch and front and rear.

In my arch I just use half brick in the back. I put all my broken ones in randomly first. (with space in between them.) Then cover them up with good brick. At the end of the season I pull them out so that moisture doesn't get under them and rust the arch out. (A little rain is bound to get down your smokestack. The wind flips my stack cover open now and then.)

I think bringing the ramp forward is a good idea. Personally, I stack loose fire brick on my ramp to help hold the heat forward. I pull them out when I'm ramming the flue brush up in there to clean the soot from the flues.

Sure like hearing about what your up to. Keep on plugging.

We'll need pics at some point.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Just ordered archboard from D&G. Quoted a price of $7 per sq. ft. I didn't have time to look elsewhere so I just bit the bullet. At least I'll have the job done.

[ibby458]

I didn't realize there were "official" reccommendations for ramps up and down under my raised flue pan. I calculated the cross sectional area of the stack, and built my ramps to maintain that fire/smoke space. I can't remember for sure, but I think my ramps start and stop 6 inches into the pan space. I also solid bricked up under the rear pan to within 1/2" of the bottom of the flues.

With hood, preheater and forced draft, I'm a LOT higher GPH that it's rated for - in fact, I can double it if I push hard.

I'm a good welder, but my cables won't reach the sugarhouse. I took careful measurements and built steel plates that I bolted in place to put the bricks on. The plates were cut (CAREFULLY) from the sides of an old fuel oil tank, (Well cleaned and vented) with flanges bent on the edges by hammering against the edge of a steel workbench. Ptetty low tech, but they worked great!

[RileySugarbush]

With a dropped flue pan, I would run the back wall of the firebox straight up close to the bottom of the syrup pan and let the gasses flow over and down around the drooped flues. Right now, mine goes up to the bottom of the flue height, but I'm going to raise it a couple of inches this season.

On your raised flue, the slope needs to go back behind the front of the flue pan about the same distance as your flue height to maintain cross sectional area so you don't choke off the flow too much. Similar treatment in the back by the stack. I think that is going to be much steeper than traditional arch slopes.

It sounds like exactly what Ibby did and it works well for him!

[partsrus1974]

Bascom's has the insulation blanket for $3.00 sq.ft hope this helps

[dano2840]

i would go with some insulating blanket put some heavy sand in and then put the blanket on top maybe that might work

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thanks Grade A I could not find it with the serches I used last time

[Amber Gold]

Thanks for all the info. I think I'll try to build a vertical wall.

Does anyone have pics of how they modified their ramp and/or constructed their wall?

That ceramic blanket stuff is not cheap. The stuff on ebay did have a cheaper price tag.

Thanks Justin. I try to think of good questions to throw on here. I do intend to start a photobucket site as soon as I have time...yeah not sure when that'll be. I'm wishing post-construction, that I had taken more pictures of my roof/cupola construction as it was going up. That seems to be a common question. I will take some post-construction photos though and hopefully that help somebody out.

[peacemaker]

hey take a pic of the inside of your arch or two and either post them here and we can look them over and see if we can make aplan

[Amber Gold]

See what I can do...should be able to tonight and try to figure out how to post them.

[Amber Gold]

Had another thought. If I get a lot more heat to the flue pan with these modifications, and it boils a lot harder, will I have a problem with sap splatter over the pan? My pan is very similiar to uncletuckers with 6-8" sides so it's not as deep as the raised flue pans I've seen with 12-18" sides.

Trying to head off a potential problem early.

[Justin Turco]

I'll bet it will splatter over the sides & on your arms and on your face and on the floor, maybe on the ceiling if your really running hard. Well maybe not the ceiling. I made some plexiglass sideboards (that's what I call them) for mine. They work fair. I've seen stainless "sideboards", which look like they would work pretty nice. A hood and preheater sure would be nice. But I'd miss watching that back pan boil.

[Amber Gold]

I's gots pictures now. Check them out on my signature and let me know what you come up with. I had some pics of my roof construction/cupola, but can't find them to post on there.

Thanks for the help.

[ibby458]

Splatter - oh yea. LOTS of sap jumping out of the pan into the condensate channels on the steam hood. Lost a LOT of sugar the first boil. For the second, I built some 12" high aluminum baffles to keep the sap in the pan. It was terrible around the distribution box on my Waterloo Small, which is inside the pan. For this year, I'm planning to replace the box with some 1-1/2 pipe, tees and valves (with stems extended thru the top of the hood.

I miss watching the back pan boil, too. Still - the increase in efficiency is worth it to me.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Its like trying to cook spaghetti sauce without a lid.Does make for alot of burn smell in the sap shack enough to get you out of your seat to see what is going wrong.

[Amber Gold]

Made up a wall in the back out of brick. Got it close to the height and just need to add a 1" blanket on top of the brick and bring the back up another 3" to give myself the 1/2" clearance. The face of the brick is about 3" into the flue pan. There's pics of it in my photobucket page. Just an idea at this point...does the trick...not sure if I'm going to stick with it.

Should I concern myself with bringing the sides in within 1/2" of the flues and leaving a 1/2" gap at the top to get heat to pan where there are no flues?

[Vin Maresco]

I am setting up a waterloo small for the first time. This is also my first evaporator, so not too sure what I am doing. I was reading the posts in this blog and though I noticed that someone said to skip the fiber board and the brick and go with a 1" thick ceramic blanket. Did I read that correctly, or should I only replace the fiber board with the blanket and then put the bick in frount of the blanket?
Vin Maresco

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thats all I have in my oil fired arch I did put down 2 layers of the 1" blanket. After 5 years it like new. The SS nuts bolts and washers have crumbled away over time but blanket has stayed in place.

[Amber Gold]

What purpose does the 1/2" gap serve under the flues? Why not bring the bottom flush with the flues

[RileySugarbush]

Having a gap there allows the bottom of the flues to be heated as well as the sides. A small area, but why not let it be exposed to the heat?

[Amber Gold]

just curious. Also wondering if restricting open area for combustion gases to flow under the flue pan would allow for secondary combustion in the fire box. Nothing to back this up, just a thought.

[Haynes Forest Products]

You need the firebox area for the oil air to combust and generate heat. if you make it to small it will combust further down the arch and you will lose the heat out the stack.

[adk1]

ok, now I know why this thread is so popular. I jsut received instructions for a Leader Half Pint evaporator. Didnt request them, dont have the unit, but have been emailed them with questions so they must have just sent them to me. Anways, I can see the instructions for bricking an evaporator can be quite something to say the least!